New York City Dec 1937

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New York City Dec 1937
Posted by Miningman on Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:34 PM

This is from Mike. What makes it very special is it's in colour. ( I turned the soundtrack down to way low, interferes with the intense study if you know what I mean)

Mike commented below the link.

 
Definitely December 1937 by the movies in Times Square. Neon signs were so cool, with sharp contrast between the light and the dark background. Nowadays Times Square is almost boring to look at, to people old enough to remember neon.

 

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, January 23, 2020 6:43 PM

I have seen a slightly later documentary on the Normandie which was clearly filmed in summer while this was equally obviously at Christmas. In that film there was similar, but shorter, colour coverage of New York. One difference was that in the summer shots there were a majority of brown coloured mens suits and jackets while in these winter shots, dark blue and dark grey predominated. Perhaps the heavier winter clothes were blue or black.

Was that a milk train behind the two NYC electrics?

Was the United States Line Leviathan still in service at that time? It was before the America, which only arrived in 1940 or so.

I thought the third funnel on the Queen Mary was a dummy but clearly it was not. The third funnel on the Normandie certainly was a dummy  (because of the different spacing) but confusingly the third funnel had a steam pipe, as seen on the departure shots.

The Normandie shots show what appears to be external strapping on the hull structure at the break between black and white paint near the base of the bridge structure. I've seen this before but don't quite know what it is for.....

Peter

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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, January 23, 2020 7:42 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Leviathan

1914-1934

Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=773161

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:41 PM

Oh wow, oh wow, Mom's New York!  And the images are so sharp it could have been shot last week!

Thanks so much Mike!  And thanks Vince for passing it along!  That film's a treasure!

And that was Leviathan  at the beginning of the film, and to my knowledge it was definately out of service and docked in Hoboken in 1937.  Her last voyage would be in 1938, she'd been sold to a British scrapping firm.  

When she was used as a troopship during World War One American Doughboys called her the "Levi Nathan!"  

That might have been a milk train, or possibly mail or express loads. 

Those Times Square signs!  Absolutely amazing what they accomplished with the technology available at the time!   

I hope Dave Klepper catches this one!  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, January 24, 2020 12:00 PM

The video is amazing! Thanks Mike and Miningman for posting it here. I didn't skip or fast forward the whole video, it was a 41 mins pure enjoyment. If someone asks me my thought on the New York City in the late 1930s, I would tell him that I watched a great video footage that makes me feel like I really "time traveled" NYC at that time period for 41 mins!

The footage that filmed on the Queen Mary and the SS Normandie was unexpected and dreamy. I can imagine the sound of the rhythm of the sea and the smell of the coating of the paint and the deck... Traveler speaking different languages or accents, you can fell the different atmosphere on two different top-tier liners. I wish the video was 41 hours long! 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, January 24, 2020 12:18 PM

M636C

I thought the third funnel on the Queen Mary was a dummy but clearly it was not. The third funnel on the Normandie certainly was a dummy  (because of the different spacing) but confusingly the third funnel had a steam pipe, as seen on the departure shots.

The Normandie shots show what appears to be external strapping on the hull structure at the break between black and white paint near the base of the bridge structure. I've seen this before but don't quite know what it is for.....

Peter

 

Peter, are you talking about that platform-like structure in the following pic?

The third funnel on the Normandie was a dummy. IIRC, there was a place or some large "cages" within the funnel structure to house the pets of the passenger, a clever design to handle the smell of dozen of dogs and cats. A service that people couldn't enjoy on the Pullman Sleeper.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 24, 2020 1:56 PM

See if you can make out whether it's present on the model here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Yurkevich_Normandia_Model.jpg

as I don't see any indication on the available drawings I have of T6.

It doesn't seem to be present on the 'large-scale' commercial model of the ship, although even at this size it's considerably smaller than N scale... Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 24, 2020 3:04 PM

Unless that's temporary platform rigged for painting that section of the hull I have no idea what it's doing there, it seems to have no practical purpose.

So that's what Vladimir Yurkevitch looked like!  Did you know he was in New York when the Normandie  burned in 1942?  The one man who knew more about the ship than anyone, he designed it after all, and who's assistance would have been invaluable in fighting the fire,  and the Navy wouldn't let him near it!  

"We can handle this!"  No you couldn't.  What a mess.

And according to John Maxtone-Graham one of the unique smells on the Queen Mary, in addition to paint, polish, and furniture wax was "...stern British antiseptic!"

Got time for a story?

About twenty-odd years ago I read an article in "Sea Classics" magazine written by a man who was an up-close witness to the Normandie  fire.  He was from Weehawken NJ and was senior in high school at the time.  It was Boy Scouts Day at school, and all who were in the Scouts were invited to wear their Scout uniforms for the day.  Being in the Sea Scouts he wore his US Navy-themed Scout uniform, as did the other Sea Scouts.

When school let out in the afternoon he and a friend saw the Normandie  burning, so it was "Hey, let's go over for a look!"  They took the ferry to Manhattan and walked up to where the ship was docked, and since they looked like US Navy personnel the police let them pass the barricades!  When they were up close to the ship a Navy Chief Petty Officer saw them and yelled "HEY YOU TWO!  BEAR A HAND OVER HERE!"  

"OK Chief!" they yelled back, and for several hours they assisted in hose and line handling, until the Chief got a good look at them and realized they were Sea Scouts!  He told them "OK you two, get outta here!" but also thanked them for their efforts.

The writer did  have some explaining to do to his mother as to why he came home smelling like smoke!

A post-script.  When he graduated high school in the spring of 1942 he and all the other Sea Scouts joined the Navy, no surprise there.  A great end to the story, they all came home in 1945.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 24, 2020 3:37 PM

More from Mike: 

New York Central's St. Johns Park Freight Terminal

 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 24, 2020 4:18 PM

Annnd more from Mike:


The Monel metal roof!  From INCO my first love employer. 
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 24, 2020 4:36 PM

He'll be back!  He's a tough nut to crack!   [;)

Surry County strong with a touch of Richmond "Southern Gentleman!"

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, January 24, 2020 7:56 PM

By User Nyctopterus on en.wikipedia - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1042172

By SS_Normandie_at_sea_view.JPG: *SS_Normandie_at_sea.jpg: Vick the Vikingderivative work: Altair78 (talk)derivative work: Altair78 (talk) - SS_Normandie_at_sea_view.JPG, CC BY 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=8383521

Does the "strapping" show up in this pic or drawing?

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Posted by M636C on Friday, January 24, 2020 8:14 PM

Overmod

See if you can make out whether it's present on the model here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Yurkevich_Normandia_Model.jpg

as I don't see any indication on the available drawings I have of T6.

It doesn't seem to be present on the 'large-scale' commercial model of the ship, although even at this size it's considerably smaller than N scale... Big Smile

 

 

It is best seen around 34:53 in the top left of the screen. It appears to show vertical strapping with triple rivet rows linked by horizontal rows of quaudruple rivets. Looking in the same place in the opposite direction at 37:56, the ladder like effect of vertical and horizontal rivet lines is clear.

It looks as though the horizontal lines are just rivets, but the verticals are straps.

It could be that I'm not familiar with riveted construction. These are most prominent in the transition from the bow flare to the vertical hull.

This is best seen in the view a few seconds before Mr Jones' screen grab. He has identified a folding navigating bridge. This is, I think, seen in use in this clip, and similar devices are still in use on big cruise liners.

It could be that this shows up better on the Normandie's hull shape than on the more conventional Queen Mary for example.

Peter

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, January 24, 2020 8:17 PM

I've been known to have a Planters factory on my layouts from time to time.

My dad was comptroller for a catering company (way back when) and the owner and his wife travelled extensively.  Legend says they never went anywhere without bringing home a pair of salt and pepper shakers.  When he passed on, his wife decided it was time to shut down the catering company (Tas-Tee Catering, it's where my mom and dad met) and told my dad to throw a lot of stuff out.  Being thrifty, he took a lot of stuff home instead and put it up in the attic.  Why?  No idea.  But anyways among all the sets of dishes, silver coffee decanters and other serving stuff were the collected sets of salt and pepper shakers.  We sold about 300 sets at garage sales over about the last 5 years but I kept a few.  The Mr. Peanut models were just too useful to a model railroader get rid of!  Wink

P.S.  That pumper off to the left of the factory is pumping peanut oil.  Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, January 24, 2020 10:45 PM

M636C

It is best seen around 34:53 in the top left of the screen. It appears to show vertical strapping with triple rivet rows linked by horizontal rows of quaudruple rivets. Looking in the same place in the opposite direction at 37:56, the ladder like effect of vertical and horizontal rivet lines is clear.

It looks as though the horizontal lines are just rivets, but the verticals are straps.

It could be that I'm not familiar with riveted construction. These are most prominent in the transition from the bow flare to the vertical hull.

This is best seen in the view a few seconds before Mr Jones' screen grab. He has identified a folding navigating bridge. This is, I think, seen in use in this clip, and similar devices are still in use on big cruise liners.

It could be that this shows up better on the Normandie's hull shape than on the more conventional Queen Mary for example.

Peter 

These "structures"?

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, January 25, 2020 5:24 AM

Jones1945
 

These "structures"?

 

 

Exactly!

Note that they continue up onto the white painted superstructure but not further down the hull.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2020 8:17 AM

Those "straps," for lack of a better term, ar probably nothing more than the riveting pattern and procedure for the dramatic compound curves on that section of Normadie's  hull, probably made more apparant by the strong sunlight and I'd guess saltwater erosion on the paint.  Did you notice the rust on the anchor and hawsepipe, in addition to the paint erosion around the waterline at the bow?  

It goes without saying paints available in the 1930's weren't anywhere near as good as those available today.  

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, January 25, 2020 5:54 PM

Flintlock76

Those "straps," for lack of a better term, ar probably nothing more than the riveting pattern and procedure for the dramatic compound curves on that section of Normandie's  hull, probably made more apparant by the strong sunlight and I'd guess saltwater erosion on the paint.  Did you notice the rust on the anchor and hawsepipe, in addition to the paint erosion around the waterline at the bow?  

It goes without saying paints available in the 1930's weren't anywhere near as good as those available today.  

 

In the video at 34:53 it can be seen that the horizontal lines are just quadruple rows of rivets but the vertical lines, at least at the front, are separate straps with lines of triple rivets.

I haven't been able to work out why this pattern of riveting is restricted to this particular area. It could be that these are above the main strength deck and are required to transfer stresses into the superstructure.

Not only did I notice the rust on the Normandie around the anchor, but noticed the equally apparent patch of fresh black paint on the Queen Mary under the anchor.

Peter 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2020 8:13 PM

Maritime artist Ken Marschall did a fine painting of the starboard side of the Titanic, and one detail he added was rust forming on the white-painted superstructure of the ship in the area of the starboard side expansion joints.

He got a bit of grief from some Titanic  buffs over that, but Ken knows his business.  He got that detail from examining a photograph of Titanic  in Southhampton harbor, sure enough, even on a new ship the rust was making it's attack.  As the saying goes, "Rust never sleeps!"

It was Ken's supposition that with the rush to get the ship in service the crew hadn't gotten around to re-painting that part of the ship, especially since it was the port  side facing the dock, and that was the side that had to make the best impression on passengers, visitors, and those who came dockside just to see the new ship.   

Have a look at this...

http://maritimequest.com/liners/titanic_art_page_3.htm  

Scroll down to paintings three and four, and look closely, you'll see the rust details.

By the way, painting four is my favorite of the Titanic,  the power, the glory, and the promise, it's all there.  

What a beautiful ship she was!

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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:19 PM

The long career of Olympic provides ample evidence that she and her sisters were well designed.  "Old Reliable" had a 24 year long career, before being replaced by Queen Mary.

She survived a severe collision with a Royal Navy cruiser, and later sank a U-boat by ramming it. 

A raking side collision with an iceberg would have had the same result with most other ships of that era.  Ditto for a mine strike (see Audacious, who Olympic attempted to save). 

Compare the sinking times of Titanic and Britannic to those of Lusitania and Empress of Ireland.  And Britannic would likely have survived had more of her portholes been closed. 

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:39 PM

'Dude, talk about some tragic ironies.

If Lusitania  had collided with the iceberg, in exactly the same manner as Titanic,  the "Lucy" might have survived, or stayed afloat long enough for rescue ships to arrive.  Why?  The "Lucy's" coal bunkers were located along the ships side, and securing the coal bunker hatches would have gone a long way to controlling the flooding.

If the Titanic  had been hit by a torpedo damage would have been localized in that watertight compartment, and since Titanic's  coal bunkers were located athwartship, that is across the hull, the chance of a coal bunker explosion (which many assume was the secondary explosion felt on the Lusitania) would have been greatly minimised, if it happened at all.

A predecessor ship of Titanic, I believe it was the Cedric, another White Star Line ship, was hit with three  torpedoes and still stayed afloat!  But I'll check that.

Nothing wrong with the way Titanic  was built.  She was a good ship, and lived another hour past what her builder Mr. Andrews thought she would.  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 2:13 AM

Speaking of four-funnel liner, I still prefer the styling of Lusitania to Mauretania and Olympic-class liners. She was smaller, older, and not as luxurious as Titanic and Olympic, but she was much faster (I don't mean the sinking speed Surprise). But of course, if I couldn't afford the first-class ticket, the facilities on these ships were much the same. Though the 2nd Class of Titanic provided more open space and better accommodation compared to Lucy, but the passenger had to spend at least one more day on the ship. IIRC, the fastest transatlantic crossing schedule of Lucy was 4 days 19 hours, wasn't it?

 

http://www.paullee.com/photos/Lusitania/index.php

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 9:27 AM

Whoops!  Correction time!

The White Star Line ship that took three torpedoes wasn't Cedric,  it was Cymric.

On April 29, 1916 Cymric  was struck by a total of three torpedoes from U-20, interestingly the same submarine that sank the Lusitania  a year earlier. 

Cymric  stayed afloat for 23 hours before sinking.  The only casualties were four killed in the explosion, and a steward who drowned during the rescue operation.

That was one tough ship!

As far as fast Atlantic crossings go, if the Lusitania  held the "Blue Ribband" as the fastest liner on the North Atlantic run she didn't hold it for long.  Her sister ship Mauretania  got it and held it for 22 years, losing it to the German liner Bremen  in 1929.  

Both "Lucy" and "Mary" were fast ships, but they had a reputation for being rough rides.  Still, if you had to get to Europe or America quickly those were the ships you took. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, January 26, 2020 9:52 AM

Flintlock76

Both "Lucy" and "Mary" were fast ships, but they had a reputation for being rough rides.  Still, if you had to get to Europe or America quickly those were the ships you took. 

They were 100% turbine powered, and had major problems with engine vibration shaking the entire ship.  EDIT:  As stated in other comments below it was the propellers, not the turbines, which were the source of the bad vibrations.

The Olympic Class had two 4-stage reciprocating engines flanking a central low-pressure turbine (whose exhaust was actually below atmospheric pressure), and different propellers.  Their arrangement was much quieter for the rest of the ship.

Mauretania on speed trials shortly after completion:

File:Mauretania - Full speed ahead.jpg

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 10:25 AM

Ken Marschall did a fantastic portrait of the Mauretania,  She's "comin' at 'ya!" and it's an image of raw power you can feel,  just looking at the painting.

Unfortunately I can't find an image on-line I can link, but it's in his book "Art of Titanic," which also showcases some of his other works. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, January 26, 2020 11:10 AM

I would need a reference that any turbine-powered ship in that era would suffer 'severe vibration' from the engines.  ESPECIALLY compared to quad-expansion to a condenser.  The Navy found turbines less of a problem in this respect with direct comparison testing after 1916.

Propeller cavitation or hull hydrodynamics at high speed -- that I'd find likely.  (See the very suggestive screw-propulsion arrangements tried on Turbinia to get around the cavitation and thrust issues...). But the vibration of any Parsons turbine with steady power loading and assured condenser capacity will be minimal even at high shp.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 12:00 PM

It WAS the propellers.  My memory was jogged by the 'Dude's comment, so I dug out my copy of "The Only Way To Cross" by John Maxtone-Graham.

The turbine engines were smooth running, remarkably so, but high-speed propeller design was in it's infancy so it took a number of tries at propeller re-design to get close to getting it right on "Mary" and "Lucy," and even then it wasn't resolved 100%. 

Normandie  even had vibration problems with it's original propellers. Three-bladed, they were replaced with a four-blade design which solved the problem.  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 12:00 PM

I do remember the structure of the Lusitania and Mauretania were reinforced to ease the vibration to an acceptable level when the ships were traveling at higher speed. Interior decoration was amended or modified to cover the additional beams and columns, but I never can find a "Before and After" photo of it. Max Newgar's earplugs might have helped the passenger to deal with the rougher ride...ON ANY SHIP! Wink

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, January 26, 2020 12:07 PM

The Mod-man mentioned Turbinia, did anyone know she's still around?  I didn't!

Here Nikolas Lloyd, good 'ol "Lindybeige," takes us on an enthusiastic tour of Turbinia  in her home in the Discovery Museum in Newcastle.  Pure fun and very informative, "Lindy's" a great storyteller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrZ5IE-1GJ4  

And now I'm going to sign off for a while.  Even after three cups of coffee and two apple turnovers I'm making spelling and typing mistakes like you wouldn't believe!

See you later!

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