Some Random Classic Pics perhaps worthy of Discussion

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, November 15, 2019 9:44 PM

I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River?  It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, November 15, 2019 8:12 PM

rcdrye

 

 
MidlandMike

Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything?

 

 

 

It's still used for the Red Line to the Airport.  Four track ROW, only two north (RTA) tracks remain.

 

 

Some Cleveland Plain Dealer photos:

It's about to become the "Red Line Greenway": https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/about/cleveland-metroparks-organization/planning/re-connecting-cleveland-tiger-grant-project/red-line-greenway

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, November 15, 2019 7:47 PM

Jones1945
Amazing view!

The river view is enhanced a bit because of the fact that the terminal complex is about 90 feet above river level:

That's the 3,112 foot long Detroit Superior bridge which had Cleveland's subway tracks on it's lower level.  I took this pic in 1993 shortly before it was renovated.  If you look carefully you can see the CUT now RTA Cuyahoga Viaduct and one of it's distinctive catenary bridges through the arches.  You can also see the Rockefeller Building peeking through the tree on the left edge.

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, November 15, 2019 7:28 PM

Miningman
5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary.

How about the brakemen?  Jumping from car to car with a brake club in hand in a raging blizzard!  Tongue Tied  Yikes!

I'm glad it was saved but I would have loved to live in it right where it was!  Wink

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, November 15, 2019 4:29 PM

1) Here's a pic that, despite Diesels, will make Flintlock 'pine for the days when'.  The Erie crossing Starrucca with the Erie Limited in resplendent shades of green  Very heavy with the Mail and Express, business looks good.

2) Canadian Pacific always always always kept their steam looking top notch, even the lowly little ancient stuff.  4-6-0 #424, a D4g, in Ottawa, 1956

 

3) Nice nice, maybe one of the better paint schemes on a RS2. 

D&M RS-2 466 was the first RS-2, built in 1946. After some 40+ years of service on the D&M it was sold to the Tuscola & Saginaw Bay and then to the Michigan Southern. Sadly I believe this very historic locomotive was scrapped in 2011. Unknown photographer.

 

4) A Schnabel Car... just because, they are so magnificient! We don't talk about Schnabels enough!

5)  A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically.  How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary. 

One last parting look at CPR station in Goderich, Ontario. It was not demolished but it has been moved and is now a restaurant. 

 

 

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, November 15, 2019 11:54 AM

Penny Trains

This is the west approach showing the CUT viaduct with it's catenary fanning out into the coach yards.

Now, if you reallywant a top down view...

Construction train.  I assume these switchers were owned by the construction company but since the CUT was part owned by the New York Central they may have belonged to them.

 

Amazing view! I just realize that the Terminal Tower was even taller than the Chicago Board of Trade Building in terms of roof height, highest occupied floor and pinnacle height when built! Both towers were built during the Great Depression, the citizens of Cleveland probably had no mood to celebrate its completion.

The proposed 1450ft, 100-floor Metropolitan Life Insurance North Building in New York, my favorite "never finish" skyscraper was another victim of the Great Depression. It would have been awesome if it was built above the New York Penn Station instead of Madison Avenue & 25th Street.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 15, 2019 6:41 AM

MidlandMike

Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything?

 

It's still used for the Red Line to the Airport.  Four track ROW, only two north (RTA) tracks remain.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, November 14, 2019 10:28 PM

Very nice. Beebe would approve. Gorgeous train.

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, November 14, 2019 10:00 PM

I thought I'd add a pretty classic photo, from the source introduced by North West in the Israeli Locomotive thread.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/40528159793/

The discussion regarding the photo on the webpage is pretty much correct except for the date. This photo was taken in 1905 and was the third of a group of four taken to illustrate the development of passenger trains for the 50th anniversary of the NSW railways.

I know this because many years ago I inspected the old Stephenson locomotive No.1 in the Museum (only allowed by request with an attendant). On the locomotive footplate were the four photos, enlarged and in wooden frames, and had possibly been there since 1905 (although the loco was pulled out again and replaced in 1955- I (just) remember seeing it.)

These days the loco is on open display and I don't know what happened to those particular prints.

The first of the series illustrated the Stephenson 0-4-2 No. 1 (actually No. 2 renumbered) with a train of four wheeled vehicles. Close examination of the photo showed that the passenger cars had duplicate stock numbers, introduced in 1891.

The second photo showed a C class 4-4-0, so far in its original condition with round top firebox and open cab, hauling a train with Redfern type compartment cars and an 1870s Pullman type sleeping car.

The fourth photo included a Mann-type compartment sleeping car with the Pullman styled sitting cars, and there may have been a more modern mail van...

The loco 513 was in fact the 42nd of the first 50 P class and was delivered with a six wheel tender, so the tender had been replaced by 1905.

Peter

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, November 14, 2019 9:50 PM

Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, November 14, 2019 9:46 PM

Considering the view the Van Sweringens had from their apartment I'm amazed they got any work done running their empire!

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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, November 14, 2019 7:34 PM

Jones1945
Lower pic: I wish I could travel every top floor of these vintage skyscrapers in America, explore all the secret stairs, rooms on the top proportion of these towers. I note there are apartment units for rent on the Terminal Tower nowadays.

Well there's the Greenbrier Suite which was the Van's home but it's part of a law firm these days:

The view from up top has changed a bit since 1928:

The photo above looks north toward the 1864 Union Depot.

The tall white building on the right is the Ohio Bell building which is purported to be the model for "The Daily Planet" because of it's array of antennas on the roof.

Looking towards "the oxbow".

Southwest flats.

This is the west approach showing the CUT viaduct with it's catenary fanning out into the coach yards.

Now, if you reallywant a top down view...

Construction train.  I assume these switchers were owned by the construction company but since the CUT was part owned by the New York Central they may have belonged to them.

The view today:

The brick building to the right of the white tent (outdoor stage) accross the river is the old powerhouse for the city's trolley network.

Looking down on Public Square and "The Old Stone Church" as Clevelanders call it.

East.  The Engineer's bank building is in there somewhere.

And yes, you can live there these days:

https://www.terminaltower.com/

Beware the ghost!  Tongue Tied

 

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:26 AM

Thanks!

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, November 14, 2019 9:44 AM

daveklepper
I was under the impression that the Tower and Union Station built by the van Sweringens (note sp.) still exists ...

It does.  They're referring to the Union Depot Penny posted.  

I don't know the reason(s) the PRR kept using the facility, but as noted they were the last to use it, and they did right up until it began to be demolished in 1959.

The 'replacement' for that depot was supposed to be the gray building 'on the lakefront' that Penny also posted.  That was stillborn on account of the Great War and the depression that followed in the early Twenties, and when the idea of a 'new' union station was taken up again Mantis and Oris left their very distinctive stamp on the project...

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 14, 2019 8:48 AM

I was under the impression that the Tower and Union Station built by the van Sweringans (Sp?) still exists, with two tracks for the Green and Blue lines (Shaker Heightds - Watefront) and two for the Red Line  (Airport - W...?) and much of the rest of the track area a parking lot, but the buiding still used for offices and shops and restaurants.   No?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:15 PM

That magnificent Cleveland Union Depot, built not for a time, but ALL time!

And I'll bet they had their hands full knocking it down too!  I'm sure it didn't go easily.

Yes, we can be logical as all get-out and say "Well, it outlived it's usefulness, and the concept of re-purposing hadn't been thought of yet, so it had to go,"  but still, when I see something like that the words of the dying Christ pop into my mind...

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!"

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:54 PM

Penny Trains

WAY better looking than the Cleveland station:

Can't say I'm totally unhappy with what replaced these 2 stations...

Upper pic: Good old days when even a private utility was built by handmade wooden structure and decoration!

Lower pic: I wish I could travel every top floor of these vintage skyscrapers in America, explore all the secret stairs, rooms on the top proportion of these towers. I note there are apartment units for rent on the Terminal Tower nowadays.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 11:26 PM

Very nice compilation Penny... insightful. Luv the history and the information. 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 8:15 PM

Flintlock76
The thing that amazes me about the Starrucca House is the size of it, and it was built in 1863! 1863! That place is bigger than most of the factories we had here in the US in 1863! But not for long, of course.

A contemporary of Starrucca House was Cleveland's old Union Depot:

It was built in 1864 after the original wood station burned down.  Lincoln came through the original on his way to Washington in 61 and his body passed through the replacement in 65.

Tearjerker coming!  Here's a local tv news film of it's demolition in 1959:

In the end only the Pennsy used it.  Here's the one that never was:

It was part of the original "group plan" for Cleveland that was interrupted by WW1 initially and later by the Van Sweringen's ambitions.

Flintlock76
Love that black and white shot of the Wheeling and Lake Erie station! Reminds me of a German restaurant! I wonder if it had a bar with Lowenbrau on tap?

No idea!  Laugh  Maybe one of the 26 locals such as Gehring, Schlather, Star, Fishel, Bohemian, Columbia, Gund, Leisy, Pilsener or Diebolt.  The favorite of many was Standard's "Erin Brew" or "Ehren Breu" to appeal to the city's equally large German population.

Anyhoo.  Here's some more of the W&LE station on "Vinegar Hill", which I'm sure was NOT served at local pubs!  Wink

It came down in 1929 to facilitate construction of the east approaches to the CUT.

 

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:24 AM

Flintlock states " That film from the 70's is a very interesting time capsule, but a bit depressing.  Dirty diesels, dirty cars, weed-grown yards and right-of-ways, that muddy-looking station stop, just the general air of decay.

Reminds me of a line from Walter Lord concerning dying transportation systems...

"The railroads sagged into decrepitude like a Bowery bum!"  

Well, it was the era of course.  Times were tough for the railroads, especially the ones in the Northeast."

Sad and barely understandable 

White lined Centipede, busted windows, no dignity

The mighty New York Central.  No dignity here either.

 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 7:54 AM

I like that picture of the crossing watchman's tower; it reminds me of the one that used to be at the Southern's mainline crossing of State Street in Bristol. That one was on the Tennessee side of the crossing (the station was on the Virginia side). One day, as I was walking back to the college, a friend drove up and stopped on the crossing. We began talking. When the watchman noticed us, he began ringing his bell and lowering the gates--even though no movement was approaching. We took the hint and moved on.

There was a sign at the base of the tower, that read "No loitering allowed," which someone had altered by adding a "w" to the end of the first word and inserting "is" after "loitering."

Johnny

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, November 11, 2019 9:12 PM

The thing that amazes me about the Starrucca House is the size of it, and it was built in 1863!  1863!  

That place is bigger than most of the factories we had here in the US in 1863!  But not for long, of course.

Love that black and white shot of the Wheeling and Lake Erie station!  Reminds me of a German restaurant!  I wonder if it had a bar with Lowenbrau on tap?Whistling

That film from the 70's is a very interesting time capsule, but a bit depressing.  Dirty diesels, dirty cars, weed-grown yards and right-of-ways, that muddy-looking station stop, just the general air of decay.

Reminds me of a line from Walter Lord concerning dying transportation systems...

"The railroads sagged into decrepitude like a Bowery bum!"  

Well, it was the era of course.  Times were tough for the railroads, especially the ones in the Northeast.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 11, 2019 9:01 PM

Is that Cleveland by way of Youngstown?

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, November 11, 2019 7:54 PM

WAY better looking than the Cleveland station:

I'll tell you who did have a neat station in Cleveland, the Wheeling and Lake Erie:

Can't say I'm totally unhappy with what replaced these 2 stations...

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, November 11, 2019 5:45 PM

Fascinating. Quite the history. Thank you. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, November 11, 2019 3:15 PM

It was called Starrucca House, and not only was it a station, it was a hotel with a capacity for 200 guests!

Susquehanna PA was also the site of a major repair facility for the Erie.  Here's the whole story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_station  

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, November 11, 2019 1:35 PM

Erie RR station in Susquehanna, PA. 

Stumbled across this picture of the Erie RR fabulous station. Now I know Susquehanna is no Cleveland or Buffalo so why the enormity of this station?  Kind of reminds me of St. Thomas, Ont. along the CASO.

That is quite a structure!

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, November 9, 2019 5:37 PM

"One railroad too many."  Yeah, the same thing happened in the Northeastern US.  The collapse of the anthracite trade, the "Rust Belt" phenomenon, and the Erie, the Lackawanna, the Lehigh and New England, the Lehigh and Hudson River, the Jersey Central and others found themselves in big trouble.

Too many railroads, not enough business.  And then the superhighways and the trucks.

Doom.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, November 9, 2019 3:34 PM

Trains and/or Classic Trains have had several really good articles covering the later years of the Rock Island system.

What that map doesn't show is that Rock Island's lines went very few places that were not already served by competing railroads, usually took a longer and slower route, and usually involved trackage rights over competing railroads in major terminals. 

The simple, unfortunate fact is that the Midwest railroad system had way too much track to be profitably supported by the remaining traffic in the post-WWII era.  Rock Island drew the short straw as the "one-railroad too many", as I believe one of the articles put it. 

If the merger with UP had been allowed to go ahead as originally proposed I wonder if the C&NW would have suffered Rock Island's fate instead.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, November 9, 2019 3:28 PM

A vast system serving the heartland, stretching West, North and South. With multiple routes to each. 

Yet another how could this happen story. 

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