Some Random Classic Pics perhaps worthy of Discussion

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, October 25, 2019 9:04 AM

Yup, fixed the spelling. I thought much the same about the number of axles, not that many but it just goes on and on. REA RIP, great logo and brand. Maybe in some alternative universe it's still flourishing and all is well. Thanks for the reply and the discussion. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, October 25, 2019 9:08 AM

"Capital" vs. "Capitol."

A lot of Americans get that one wrong too!

"Too big to fail."  As far as I'm concerned there's a corollary to that phrase...

"Too big to fail can also mean too big to succeed."   Think about it.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, October 25, 2019 10:00 AM

REA could have (and should have) evolved into a door-to-door intermodal delivery subsiduary.  Sort of like what CNTL does now, but for all the railroads.

Ask the big old GM about being too big to fail....

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, October 25, 2019 6:54 PM

Miningman
GMD London Ontario ...shown is the listing for the property. Typical GMD builders plate (mounted on wall panel). Collection of Al Howlett Apparently it is currently a greeting card and party balloons business.

That's even funnier than you may know!  Wink  The Linndale roundhouse property became in part the world headquarters of the American Greetings greeting card company!  Laugh

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 25, 2019 8:17 PM

Miningman
I thought much the same about the number of axles, not that many but it just goes on and on.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if that old steam dodge of slanting the board in the darkroom has been used on that picture.  You know how some old pictures of articulated have those egg-shaped wheels... ?

We could take some measurements and see.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 25, 2019 8:41 PM

Strangely, their CNJ map shows neither the L&NE nor the L&HR ... wasn't the latter a key part of the Reading Combine?  I wonder why?  I also wonder what the 'most direct route to Chicago' consisted of in the late 1860s ... handover to the Philadelphia and Erie?  Someone should trace this out and map it!

Interesting that out of all the photos I've seen taken of the Aldene station, this site has the first one that indicates where the Garden State Parkway crosses.

It's hard to imagine the 'net savings' from that simple little ramp up to the LV.  Remember that Jersey Central had an enormous four-track bridge across Newark Bay (see the post August 17th) ... no need for it any more.  C'paw and E'port ... don't need them much, either.  

Pity parent B&O got kicked out of Penn Station before the days of the Bullet... might have been interesting to see the timing by way of the two Penn Stations, and later via the Aldene Connection if it had lasted that long ...

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 25, 2019 8:55 PM

SD70Dude
REA could have (and should have) evolved into a door-to-door intermodal delivery subsidiary.

It would never have paid.

Look at the history of small intermodal ramp service (a thread spun at some length over on the MR forum) for some of the reasons why not.

REA "worked" as long as it did because most of the package arrivals were already 'bulk-broken' and highly LCL, coming straight off the local (or express) train to storage, then delivery, in the closed package vans reasonably common to all the stations.  (I wince for the tires in some of the published pictures of REA vans backed up across team tracks for ease of access!)

For intermodal, you would need some means of either handling swap-bodies or parking cuts of flats with loads ... and the chassis and trucks to handle them.  No benefit whatsoever in adding a fancy intermodal anything, as it already comes off the baggage car or RPO or out of the vestibule directly.  

And let's look at what handles the putative REA trailer or container when it gets to East Pudknock ... not only does it need to reside on its 'new mode' chassis; it needs some sort of specialized truck to pull it.  Perhaps even specialized yard-tractor equipment like a hydraulic fifth wheel or near-zero-turn steering.  Which is essentially worthless... decidedly unlike a parcel van... at any time there isn't an intermodal load (inherently a very large fraction of a container or van load) to be drayed.

And this begs an even further question: how is the bulk in the van or container subsequently broken, and what time does it save doing that?  There wasn't, and in most cases still isn't, enough business in most of these little towns to justify even 20' units on the legacy service frequency.  So you wind up with the idea of intermodal to distribution centers, where the bulk is broken and the little vans are loaded for delivery ... and that'll work, but other companies had the equipment and the operating disciplines to do the job better purely with direct OTR in the presence of good, essentially free road systems.  The thought of REA succeeding as an OTR carrier is not beyond belief, but the evidence certainly proved they couldn't cross that chasm when they could.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, October 25, 2019 9:36 PM

[quote user="Penny Trains"]

Where most useful things go...

http://towns-and-nature.blogspot.com/2016/04/lima-oh-locomotive-works.html

...to oblivion in the name of progress.

 

[/quote

I should have said something earlier, but those "before-and-after" shots are so heartbreaking I just don't have the words.

Especially  when I think of the works of absolute genius that came out of the Lima Locomotive Works!  It's like finding Michaelangelo's studio intact and then demolishing it for a disco!  Well, almost.  

Ah, what can you do?  Big antiques like "The Locomotive," that's what Lima residents called the shops, have to earn their keep in one way or another or they just don't stay around very long.   

Might have made a helluva "wedding factory."  Or something.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 25, 2019 10:26 PM

Flintlock76
I should have said something earlier, but those "before-and-after" shots are so heartbreaking I just don't have the words.

You want heartbreaking, I'll give you heartbreaking -- Livio Dante Porta setting foot in the works near the beginning of the ACE project and saying 'gentlemen, remove your hats, we are standing on holy ground'.

Would that it could have been different.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, October 26, 2019 11:08 AM

Ah yes, Maestro  Livio Dante Porta, a genius himself and a true Spanish gentleman of the old school.  (OK, I know he was Argentine, but you know what I mean.)

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:01 PM

At least the final resident of the erecting hall was ENTIRELY worthy!

 

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, October 27, 2019 10:54 AM

Penny Trains

At least the final resident of the erecting hall was ENTIRELY worthy!

 

 

"The dance is over but the melody lingers on."

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, November 6, 2019 9:06 PM

Some random selected pics perhaps worthy of discussion.

1)  You have to admit this is pretty darn impressive. The size, the styling, the commitment to cutting edge technology at an early point in time.

 

2)  Nice angle and view on the tender of Pennsy's streamlined Pacific. Very classy paint scheme with the pin stripes. Shows off how big that tender really is.

 

3)  Here it is from the front really smokin' it up and working hard, that stack showing a lot of muscle.

 

4)  Only one of these is an Alco. Can you fiqure out which one it is? ( should have saved this for the quiz)

 

5)  The last train service. It's 1961 and this is the Pennsy's Northern Arrow, just arrived in Mackinaw City, Michigan. Sections from St. Louis, Cincinnati and Chicago are all part of what to me looks like a pretty well patronized train. The  E looks a bit beat up though.

So long Northern Arrow. So long.

 

6)  A really nice transfer type caboose on the Chicago Great Western another sad fallen flag famous for its monster F unit lashups and monster trains. Virtually none of its track exists today.

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 2:07 AM

Miningman

Some random selected pics perhaps worthy of discussion.

1)  You have to admit this is pretty darn impressive. The size, the styling, the commitment to cutting edge technology at an early point in time.

Yes, they were indeed impressive. I have started reading the book "Union Pacific Streamliners" by William Kratville, Harold E. Ranks recently, and am really impressed by UP's management. They made a wise choice of choosing power and put a lot of effort to make their passenger trains the best of the best. I wish UP kept the pre-war livery color. 

Miningman

2)  Nice angle and view on the tender of Pennsy's streamlined Pacific. Very classy paint scheme with the pin stripes. Shows off how big that tender really is.

The tender was later replaced by a smaller 8-wheel one. Wiki says the original tender of 3768 "was originally made for a class L1s locomotive with the designation 180-F-82. Later, it was assigned as 180-P-75 for class K4s No. 3768; the tender was rebuilt again and received the designation 180-P-85 for S2 6200 use". Once the BLI's HO scale 3768 arrive, I can compare the size of it with the S2's 16-wheel tender.

Miningman

3)  Here it is from the front really smokin' it up and working hard, that stack showing a lot of muscle.

From 1936 to 1940, PRR #3768 was the only streamlined steam locomotive of PRR west of Harrisburg! NYC had thirteen (two K-5. one J-1-a and ten J-3-a) by 1940.

In 1941/42 NYC had fifteen, PRR had nine (one S1, two T1, five K4s, one Q1). When fifty production T1 arrived in 1945/46, Pennsy had fifty-eight (Q1 was de-streamlined) but NYC started de-streamlining the Dreyfuss engines. 

Miningman
 

6)  A really nice transfer type caboose on the Chicago Great Western another sad fallen flag famous for its monster F unit lashups and monster trains. Virtually none of its track exists today.

Place some small tables and chairs on both ends, convert the shed into a kitchen, that will give us a new outdoor coffee shop; hook it to a PRR T1, traveling at 100mph, all axlebox on fire, priceless travel experience. CoffeeSurprise

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, November 7, 2019 4:50 AM

I can confirm that the lead unit on the right hand train as viewed is an Alco.

The third unit on the left train as viewed could be an Alco but the hood looks more like a GE to me...

At least one Alco...

Peter

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:36 PM

Interesting, that shot of those three pre-war diesels.

The one on the left looks like it's looking for something.

The one in the middle looks like it found it!

The one on the right looks like it could care less.

Oh well, a function looking for a form I suppose.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, November 7, 2019 4:30 PM

Jonesy-- 100 mph behind a T1 drinking a cappuccino sitting on the deck of a CGW transfer caboose... fine, you go first, I'll take pics. Recommend a seat belt.

M636C-- The locomotive on the right is one of those famous 'Alligators' #9043.  I am going to assume that the smokin' locomotive two behind GP35 #3436 is one as well but we may never know for sure, but c'mon it's gotta be!

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, November 8, 2019 12:21 AM

Jones1945

Yes, they were indeed impressive. I have started reading the book "Union Pacific Streamliners" by William Kratville, Harold E. Ranks recently, and am really impressed by UP's management. They made a wise choice of choosing power and put a lot of effort to make their passenger trains the best of the best. I wish UP kept the pre-war livery color.

A very informative book loaded with a lot of details. I picked up my copy in 1977 and am still running across something I hadn't noticed in previous readings. One example is that the locomotives drawings usually have a table of tractive effort versus speed that I first noticed in the last year or so.

 - Erik

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 8, 2019 8:08 AM

The Horseshoe Curve photo improved with MS Photo Editor Automatic Balance:

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 8, 2019 9:50 AM

Jones1945
Place some small tables and chairs on both ends, convert the shed into a kitchen, that will give us a new outdoor coffee shop; hook it to a PRR T1, traveling at 100mph, all axlebox on fire, priceless travel experience.

One you won't forget for the rest of your life!

(All joking aside, you might get one of those things to track reasonably well above 90mph with a proper pair of three-piece trucks, on any line that will accomodate a T1 at that speed.  I am still in awe that interchange cars could reliably to do this on the Super C when it was still possible to run true 90mph peak freight service!  Even ordinary AP cartridge bearings ought to take this without too much nastiness, but you could always get the South Africans to sell you something to puff a little fire around them now and again, strictly for effect and not to ward off hoboes, photo lines creeping too close, and other distractions.

And if not, modify things just a bit and substitute a pair of modern disc-brake passenger trucks...

Seat belts?  You might want 5-point harnesses.  (And a self-aligning BRS safety rig for when, not if, you got blown in the air...)

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, November 8, 2019 12:22 PM

Somewhere, someone was talking about these.  Old PRR intermodal-type container that was in our old yard before it was all ripped up/scrapped.  Still several around the other yards, but I don't think this one survived.  Nothing good was in it - one of the supervisors cut the lock, but it didn't have the new in box PRR position signals that I was hoping for.

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 8, 2019 1:33 PM

zugmann
Old PRR intermodal-type container that was in our old yard before it was all ripped up/scrapped. 

Those should be preserved, or at least offered or sold to museums with a relevant mission or interest.   You might post this over on RyPN and have anyone with actual interest PM you from there...

We had a "Southern Intermodal Freight" van trailer over at the NS intermodal yard adjacent to the Memphis Coliseum for heaven knows how many years.  Then the yard was ripped up for reconfiguration a couple of years and all the sentimental stuff pulled out.  

Except this -- they ran it around the side and parked it carefully adjacent to one of the access roads.  Awaiting its preservation opportunity when someone concerned with the modern history of effective railroading comes to see.

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, November 8, 2019 1:44 PM

Overmod
Those should be preserved, or at least offered or sold to museums with a relevant mission or interest. You might post this over on RyPN and have anyone with actual interest PM you from there...

Not my department.  I don't own them, and most of them are still being used for storage.  Unfortunately when they sold the yard, it was lock, stock, and barrel.  I wish I would have had known a day or two when we moved, I would have grabbed some signs off the building.  There was also a baggage car body and an old reefer car body on site that are gone.

 

Now the BJ's wholesale club near me had a beautiful Rock Island trailer.  That's gone, but another ex-RR trailer is in its place.  I forget whose, it wasn't as original as the RI one, but you could still read the old markings.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, November 8, 2019 1:52 PM

Up in the Peace River area (northern Alberta) CN was still using at least one wood-sided stock car for material storage as of a few years ago.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, November 8, 2019 1:54 PM

zugmann

Now the BJ's wholesale club near me had a beautiful Rock Island trailer.  That's gone, but another ex-RR trailer is in its place.  I forget whose, it wasn't as original as the RI one, but you could still read the old markings.

I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field.  I'll have to keep an eye on it, maybe one day it too will be considered a desirable antique.

No idea what brought it to Alberta.

It's here, you can even read the writing on the side in Street View:

53.561230, -114.738298

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 8, 2019 2:24 PM

SD70Dude
I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field...

Too lazy to key it up on this older computer -- is it white or one of the gray ones?

As far as I remember, these were special dedicated service, largely for USPS, and at one time for specific city pairs in lanes as painted right on the trailer side.  (I think the Mercury referred to the Roman god of speed and swift completion of appointed rounds, rather than the NYC Detroit train ... but always prepared to hear a better story!)

Someone like Don Oltmann could probably comment on what special construction or gear was used in these to make them intermodal in this service, above and beyond what made a trailer a "Trail Van".  Certainly an interesting part of history ... but probably not interesting to enough people quite yet.  And as with so much else in the railroad industry ... gone or scrapped before that interest progresses to spending money and volunteering time.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, November 8, 2019 4:52 PM

Overmod
SD70Dude
I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field...

Too lazy to key it up on this older computer -- is it white or one of the gray ones?

It's light grey.  It looks like the number and some other writing is still there but I can't quite read it in street view.  I'll have to stop and take a quick look the next time I travel that way.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, November 8, 2019 6:18 PM

Overmod

One you won't forget for the rest of your life!

(All joking aside, you might get one of those things to track reasonably well above 90mph with a proper pair of three-piece trucks, on any line that will accomodate a T1 at that speed.  I am still in awe that interchange cars could reliably to do this on the Super C when it was still possible to run true 90mph peak freight service!  Even ordinary AP cartridge bearings ought to take this without too much nastiness, but you could always get the South Africans to sell you something to puff a little fire around them now and again, strictly for effect and not to ward off hoboes, photo lines creeping too close, and other distractions.

And if not, modify things just a bit and substitute a pair of modern disc-brake passenger trucks...

Seat belts?  You might want 5-point harnesses.  (And a self-aligning BRS safety rig for when, not if, you got blown in the air...) 

I forgot to mention the "beach umbrella" attach to the table on the "outdoor coffee car", could have invited the company that can make the strongest umbrella in human history; a solid roof would be too forgettable, predictable and unchallenging. Pennsy needed a car like this on the Broadway Ltd, that would have helped them to turn the table. A "waiver of liability" had to be signed before entering the car though.  :  (

A 90mph+ freight train! That was probably something a freight steam engine could never achieve...... of course someone could attach a single boxcar behind an ATSF 4-8-4s and called it a freight train, just as how the "official" steam engine speed record was made. The PRR Q1 once reached 70mph hauling 10000 tons on level track at 40% cutoff, PRR S1 was 3mph faster with 100 freight cars behind her, probably the fastest freight train speed record...... please enlighten me if there was any faster steam-powered freight train! 

Imagine that banner was a very strong rubber band:

 

https://www.kshs.org/index.php?url=km/items/view/227017

 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, November 8, 2019 6:47 PM

Jones--Nice pic on the Super C .. a photo worth further discussion as the thread implies. Perhaps the umbrella plant that built the Sardonicus Talgo Train could build your ultimate umbrella.

Built in an umbrella factory!

 Mr. Sardonicus 

David-- Thanks for the enhanced Horseshoe Curve photo.. it is claimed to be the first photo of a scheduled train on Horseshoe. 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, November 8, 2019 7:15 PM

Whenever I see that thing it just makes me want to yell out what the???????

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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