Ahhhh, Shot Two! One of the Jersey Central's big beefy Mikados!
They didn't save none of them neither! Dammit.
Still, a nice shot of the Communipaw Engine Terminal, with New York City in the background. Now Communipaw's gone like it was never there.
Communipaw is gone? See I didn't know that. Thought it was one of those important strategic locations that would live forever. Nice notice on the City Skyline in the background. Heck of a big engine. Huge tender! With all Diesel assassins lurking about its days are numbered for sure.
Sorry to hear the Terminal is gone and wouldn't it be nice if they kept that Mikado.
Nothing looks tougher than an anthracite road Consol or Mikado with a Wootten firebox.
Yeah Vince, to make a long story short when Conrail came about and the Jersey Central was folded into same the Jersey City terminal, freight yards, and Communipaw engine terminal and shops weren't needed anymore, and were demolished in the 1980's.
The old CNJ passenger terminal survives as Liberty State Park, but everything else is, to use a Lucius Beebe phrase, "Gone with the snows of yesteryear..."
Like it was never there.
i'm sure I lined this video clip before, but for those who haven't seen it, here's an excerpt from the Jersey Central promotional film of 1949 " The Big Little Railroad."
And again, everything you see in the Jersey City terminal area is gone. Staggering really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kYeg5A6jBE
PS: I couldn't help but notice that YouTube says "Comments are disabled for this video." No surprise, considering there's a lot of railfans in New Jersey and some of them are pretty intense there was probably a lot of profanity involved! The old CNJ had a lot of fans!
Jersey Central
http://www.trainweb.org/rahwayvalley/route_rosellepark_aldene_CNJ.htm
Check out that before and after picture 2nd and 3rd down!
Oh yeah, those "before and after" shots!
It's stunning how something like the Jersey Central terminal area can disappear so completely, isn't it?
All that hard work that went into building it. Lost. What a shame.
That double Roundhouse in the background ...just gone and all that yard trackage. What a whammy.
So all those railcars have been replaced by trucking?
Thanks for building New York and surrounding areas, winning the war for us and building our economy, now GET LOST!
The eradication of the CNJ's landmarks gets even worse.
Here's the story of the CNJ's Newark Bay Drawbrige, an engineering marvel. When the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey wanted it gone it was doomed. Not a trace remains.
Here's the story, and the photo really doesn't do it justice, it was a colossus!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRRNJ_Newark_Bay_Bridge
It's funny how small the Elizabethport Shops actually were. It's interesting how some larger railroads had relatively small shops while smaller ones had huge (for their size) ones. US Steel roads had large backshops, along with the anthracite roads while NKP Conneaut didn't seem to be large at all.
It can be worse. At least C'paw was obsolescent by the '70s. You couldn't really say that about Orangeville, which in my memory was alive with locomotives. And now...
https://www.navpooh.com/orangevillemap.html
Flintlock/Wayne -- Are you sure we won the war?
Jersey City
Mind boggling ... that's a long way from originally trading with the Native folks
Miningman Flintlock/Wayne -- Are you sure we won the war?
Oh, we won the war all right, but it's amazing how fast the tools that made victory possible disappeared when they weren't needed anymore. Ships, tanks, planes, steam locomotives, and eventually a lot of railroads themselves that dieselizing couldn't save.
Check this depressing stuff out...
https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/post-wwii-long-term-aircraft-storage-sites.htm
Now I'm not saying all of those warplanes should have been saved, that would have been totally impractical, but the preservation of a goodly number of them should have been attempted instead of wholesale junking.
I don't know, I wasn't there, what do I know? Maybe all everyone wanted to do was get the war behind them as soon as possible and get on with their lives. Can't blame them for that.
By the way, several years ago I read an article in "Air Classics" magazine written by a former USAAF pilot who ferried fighter planes to the boneyard. P-39's, P-40's, P-47's, you name it, and when he got to the boneyard it was always "Park it over there," or "Park it over here," no-one asked him to sign a delivery voucher, or sign any paperwork whatsoever. It was always "Park it..."
Afterwards he'd hop a ferry flight back to where the planes were being returned from overseas and pick up another one, then start the wole process over.
"Geez!" he said in the article, "I could have flown one or more of those planes to my parents farm, stuck 'em in one of the barns, and no-one would have been the wiser!"
Flintlock76Now I'm not saying all of those warplanes should have been saved, that would have been totally impractical, but the preservation of a goodly number of them should have been attempted instead of wholesale junking.
But they were ridiculously obsolete for most military purposes, expensive to maintain and run, and not the kind of thing a person would want in his yard as a memorial. The thing's been said far more powerfully than anything I could possibly indicate here ... the personal side, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpGNKO6wz10
Prefabricated houses, bigger jets, the TurboTrain ... those were the way of the future. And that was only 1946, when steam still had a bright future on American railroads...
I do know of at least one company that tried to make 'civilian' use of these aircraft: the On Mark company with A-26s. Some of the engineering changes used to accomplish the conversion were ingenious. Didn't appear to help. But the results were spectacular...
FYI.
The CHAIN DRIVE Mack Truck w the crane would be a Classic these days.
Thank You.
NDG FYI. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpGNKO6wz10 The CHAIN DRIVE Mack Truck w the crane would be a Classic these days. Thank You.
No doubt!
Mod-man, I know just what you're saying. All true. Still, it's a shame nonetheless.
Have you ever heard of the original ending to that sequence in "The Best Years Of Our Lives"? I forget where I read or heard this, maybe in a "Great Movies" type magazine, maybe on Turner Classic Movies, but purportedly the sequence originally ended with Dana Andrews committing suicide in the the nose of the B-17. If you've seen the movie you know his whole life's come totally apart by that point.
Anyway, in several "sneak previews" the audience had such a bad reaction to it, it "Stopped the picture COLD!" to use a Hollywood phrase, the sequence was re-shot and the ending we see in the clip was substituted.
Is is true? Maybe.
More pics for possible discussion
1) A very very early picture, among the first, of a through train on Horseshoe Curve.
2) Still on Horseshoe but years and years later.. A Pennsy funeral train of dead steam, featuring a former hard working Decapod, being taken on its last journey.
3) Its days are over... a NYO&W wooden milk car, forlorn and abandoned.
4) A remarkable survivor into 1960! AT&SF antique wooden box in very good shape.
5) Big Power featured in post war ads from steam locomotive suppliers.
6) C&NW in Rochelle. Wouldn't it be a shocker to see this whole train cross the diamonds at the park.
7) Saskatoon! A one horse town! Very old days. I can personally attest that it does not look like this any longer. Still flat though!
8) The elusive 2-2-0 single driving axle. Big crew. That's a long reach on the main rod.
Miningman 8) The elusive 2-2-0 single driving axle. Big crew. That's a long reach on the main rod.
If you google 2-2-0, you will find a lot of interesting early steam engines from different countries, and strange photos like this:
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Miningman8) The elusive 2-2-0 single driving axle. Big crew. That's a long reach on the main rod.
That's almost certainly a converted 4-4-0, probably one of the pre-1850 or so engines with the four-wheel lead truck awkwardly under the cylinders instead of the Mason design with the wheels before and behind. That's a perfectly normal main rod; what's unusual is the longer piston rod and crosshead guide that allow drive on what was previously the 'rear' of the two axles; see the comparable arrangement on the forward engine of a PRR T1 that allows all four main rods to be common.
Interesting that with the wheels at the 'corners' the thing would ride as well as a Pullman car, and there's plenty of deep firebox and boiler capacity for that pair of little long-stroke cylinders... balance those drivers well (and compensate somehow for the effect of surge) and it should show a surprising turn of speed.
Might need a better crosshead and crosshead-lubrication design, though!
Interesting Overmod, something I did not know. Converted from a 4-4-0 of very early design.
Some more food for thought just to remind us how far things railroading have been destroyed and removed from everyday life.
1) Perhaps if you strolled deep into the woods of the Granite State you could find an old timer in a checkered shirt who can relate.
2) A Lackawanna advert without Phoebe, extolling the virtues of their bread and butter ... Freight! Yet another road needlessly wiped out of existence. Long Live the Lackawanna!
3) "Keeping passengers in good humour and enhancing prestige"
Obviously boosters were very good!
4) Alco and the mighty 3 cylinder steam locomotive! Just another fading memory of a great technology.
3) Lima! Never gave up... always believed in steam.. where are you Lima, where are you?
Where most useful things go...
http://towns-and-nature.blogspot.com/2016/04/lima-oh-locomotive-works.html
...to oblivion in the name of progress.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
So to our friends at Alco:
Alco_remains by Edmund, on Flickr
The building I circled in blue is, as far as I can tell, the only remaining structure.
Alco_site5 by Edmund, on Flickr
Presently occupied by a steel sales service. The remaining property is now a casino .
At least the distinctive "Cross" of the Baldwin Office Building, eddystone, Pennsylvania, still exists.
http://wikimapia.org/21018966/Baldwin-Tower-Office-Building
Anyone know the status of the EMD property at La Grange?
Regards, Ed
GMD London Ontario ...shown is the listing for the property.
Typical GMD builders plate (mounted on wall panel). Collection of Al Howlett
Apparently it is currently a greeting card and party balloons business.
Aerial photo showing property for sale. General Dynamics property to left. CPR Galt Sub. main line at bottom including GMD test track former passing track.Note: Most in-plant trackage dismantled by OSR.
More Classic Days photos maybe worth talking about.
1) The Baltimore and Ohio before the Capitol Limited, famous salads and an equally famous Monopoly square.
2) Now this is how you do street running.. big wide right of way and seperate lanes for street traffic ... Irontown, Ohio
3) Lot of talk on this Forum about Sunnyside Yard lately... so here's a great aerial view.
4) Conrail in its baby years, wearing baby blue and as the saying goes "using it up". Pretty darn skimpy on the graphics ... a simple small CR, common in its early days.
5) UP Turbine... as stunning as the S1..
Look at all those axles and the length!
6) Norfolk and Western and REA in an iconic scene that us Classics dudes sadly
miss... " don't know what you got 'till it's gone"
Miningman The Baltimore and Ohio before the Capitaol Limited ...
Thanks for fixing the spelling.
Ask BaltACD about salads, and ever so much more. His father oversaw the service for many years, and if you like Southern-type home cooking there was said to be no railroad that did better.
You do realize that in your picture of the UP turbine, you have less than half the locomotive visible? Each half was only 2500 nominal horsepower (I think this was at least in part condenser-limited) and while they could be operated separately you'd normally find them together doing the work of a good large 4-8-4.
There really aren't "that" many axles under there; the wheel arrangement is not far different from that of, say, a GG1 if you put tankage between the underframes. (Note that later developments went to span-bolstered trucks, both for steam and gas turbines, which could lower the overall length... the N&W TE-1 was monstrously long for 4500hp but nowhere near what turbines 1 and 2 showed when coupled)
Much of the length involves those condensers -- and they were probably too small for many requirements on the UP system. For something more amusing, see if you can find a picture of the actual steam turbine used in one ... and compare its size to the exhaust plenum provided for it!
I continue hoping, more and more dimly, that someone took notes on how the bugs in these locomotives were worked out during their WWII service on GN, and that the notes will come to light. These were interesting and seemingly well-designed locomotives, and when built were sensible alternatives to early diesels.
There are books that could be written about the inability of REA to 'switch paradigms' and survive against UPS in the post-passenger-train world... in fact, I think there have been. In an era of effectively-free M&E service to a wide range of 'destination pairs', maintaining relatively small trucks at nearly every station that were driven by people with local knowledge was a cost-effective strategy. Once that died back, and I get the impression that the change was very rapid in the postwar years, trying to duplicate the backbone with anything else, specifically including any of the versions of intermodal service that otherwise were flourishing from the early '50s on, was relatively hopeless.
It was my impression, when I looked at this in the '70s, right about the time they finally gave up the ghost, that they had the basic idea both that they were 'too big to fail' and that they couldn't make the huge changes in both operations and capital to transition what they had... until they had no effective future.
That was a shame because they were a known symbol for 'express package service' to most everyone in America, and their livery remains distinctive to this day. Throwing that away -- and by now it is nearly completely thrown away, as the last people who remember it pass 'the edge of history' -- was nearly incomprehensible ... but then again, so were other contemporary business changes, including so many of the railroads in the Northeast that were 'fixtures' right up to the '70s.
Yup, fixed the spelling. I thought much the same about the number of axles, not that many but it just goes on and on. REA RIP, great logo and brand. Maybe in some alternative universe it's still flourishing and all is well. Thanks for the reply and the discussion.
"Capital" vs. "Capitol."
A lot of Americans get that one wrong too!
"Too big to fail." As far as I'm concerned there's a corollary to that phrase...
"Too big to fail can also mean too big to succeed." Think about it.
REA could have (and should have) evolved into a door-to-door intermodal delivery subsiduary. Sort of like what CNTL does now, but for all the railroads.
Ask the big old GM about being too big to fail....
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
MiningmanGMD London Ontario ...shown is the listing for the property. Typical GMD builders plate (mounted on wall panel). Collection of Al Howlett Apparently it is currently a greeting card and party balloons business.
That's even funnier than you may know! The Linndale roundhouse property became in part the world headquarters of the American Greetings greeting card company!
MiningmanI thought much the same about the number of axles, not that many but it just goes on and on.
Now that you mention it, I wonder if that old steam dodge of slanting the board in the darkroom has been used on that picture. You know how some old pictures of articulated have those egg-shaped wheels... ?
We could take some measurements and see.
Strangely, their CNJ map shows neither the L&NE nor the L&HR ... wasn't the latter a key part of the Reading Combine? I wonder why? I also wonder what the 'most direct route to Chicago' consisted of in the late 1860s ... handover to the Philadelphia and Erie? Someone should trace this out and map it!
Interesting that out of all the photos I've seen taken of the Aldene station, this site has the first one that indicates where the Garden State Parkway crosses.
It's hard to imagine the 'net savings' from that simple little ramp up to the LV. Remember that Jersey Central had an enormous four-track bridge across Newark Bay (see the post August 17th) ... no need for it any more. C'paw and E'port ... don't need them much, either.
Pity parent B&O got kicked out of Penn Station before the days of the Bullet... might have been interesting to see the timing by way of the two Penn Stations, and later via the Aldene Connection if it had lasted that long ...
SD70DudeREA could have (and should have) evolved into a door-to-door intermodal delivery subsidiary.
It would never have paid.
Look at the history of small intermodal ramp service (a thread spun at some length over on the MR forum) for some of the reasons why not.
REA "worked" as long as it did because most of the package arrivals were already 'bulk-broken' and highly LCL, coming straight off the local (or express) train to storage, then delivery, in the closed package vans reasonably common to all the stations. (I wince for the tires in some of the published pictures of REA vans backed up across team tracks for ease of access!)
For intermodal, you would need some means of either handling swap-bodies or parking cuts of flats with loads ... and the chassis and trucks to handle them. No benefit whatsoever in adding a fancy intermodal anything, as it already comes off the baggage car or RPO or out of the vestibule directly.
And let's look at what handles the putative REA trailer or container when it gets to East Pudknock ... not only does it need to reside on its 'new mode' chassis; it needs some sort of specialized truck to pull it. Perhaps even specialized yard-tractor equipment like a hydraulic fifth wheel or near-zero-turn steering. Which is essentially worthless... decidedly unlike a parcel van... at any time there isn't an intermodal load (inherently a very large fraction of a container or van load) to be drayed.
And this begs an even further question: how is the bulk in the van or container subsequently broken, and what time does it save doing that? There wasn't, and in most cases still isn't, enough business in most of these little towns to justify even 20' units on the legacy service frequency. So you wind up with the idea of intermodal to distribution centers, where the bulk is broken and the little vans are loaded for delivery ... and that'll work, but other companies had the equipment and the operating disciplines to do the job better purely with direct OTR in the presence of good, essentially free road systems. The thought of REA succeeding as an OTR carrier is not beyond belief, but the evidence certainly proved they couldn't cross that chasm when they could.
[quote user="Penny Trains"]
[/quote
I should have said something earlier, but those "before-and-after" shots are so heartbreaking I just don't have the words.
Especially when I think of the works of absolute genius that came out of the Lima Locomotive Works! It's like finding Michaelangelo's studio intact and then demolishing it for a disco! Well, almost.
Ah, what can you do? Big antiques like "The Locomotive," that's what Lima residents called the shops, have to earn their keep in one way or another or they just don't stay around very long.
Might have made a helluva "wedding factory." Or something.
Flintlock76I should have said something earlier, but those "before-and-after" shots are so heartbreaking I just don't have the words.
You want heartbreaking, I'll give you heartbreaking -- Livio Dante Porta setting foot in the works near the beginning of the ACE project and saying 'gentlemen, remove your hats, we are standing on holy ground'.
Would that it could have been different.
Ah yes, Maestro Livio Dante Porta, a genius himself and a true Spanish gentleman of the old school. (OK, I know he was Argentine, but you know what I mean.)
At least the final resident of the erecting hall was ENTIRELY worthy!
Penny Trains At least the final resident of the erecting hall was ENTIRELY worthy!
"The dance is over but the melody lingers on."
Some random selected pics perhaps worthy of discussion.
1) You have to admit this is pretty darn impressive. The size, the styling, the commitment to cutting edge technology at an early point in time.
2) Nice angle and view on the tender of Pennsy's streamlined Pacific. Very classy paint scheme with the pin stripes. Shows off how big that tender really is.
3) Here it is from the front really smokin' it up and working hard, that stack showing a lot of muscle.
4) Only one of these is an Alco. Can you fiqure out which one it is? ( should have saved this for the quiz)
5) The last train service. It's 1961 and this is the Pennsy's Northern Arrow, just arrived in Mackinaw City, Michigan. Sections from St. Louis, Cincinnati and Chicago are all part of what to me looks like a pretty well patronized train. The E looks a bit beat up though.
So long Northern Arrow. So long.
6) A really nice transfer type caboose on the Chicago Great Western another sad fallen flag famous for its monster F unit lashups and monster trains. Virtually none of its track exists today.
Miningman Some random selected pics perhaps worthy of discussion. 1) You have to admit this is pretty darn impressive. The size, the styling, the commitment to cutting edge technology at an early point in time.
Yes, they were indeed impressive. I have started reading the book "Union Pacific Streamliners" by William Kratville, Harold E. Ranks recently, and am really impressed by UP's management. They made a wise choice of choosing power and put a lot of effort to make their passenger trains the best of the best. I wish UP kept the pre-war livery color.
Miningman 2) Nice angle and view on the tender of Pennsy's streamlined Pacific. Very classy paint scheme with the pin stripes. Shows off how big that tender really is.
The tender was later replaced by a smaller 8-wheel one. Wiki says the original tender of 3768 "was originally made for a class L1s locomotive with the designation 180-F-82. Later, it was assigned as 180-P-75 for class K4s No. 3768; the tender was rebuilt again and received the designation 180-P-85 for S2 6200 use". Once the BLI's HO scale 3768 arrive, I can compare the size of it with the S2's 16-wheel tender.
Miningman 3) Here it is from the front really smokin' it up and working hard, that stack showing a lot of muscle.
From 1936 to 1940, PRR #3768 was the only streamlined steam locomotive of PRR west of Harrisburg! NYC had thirteen (two K-5. one J-1-a and ten J-3-a) by 1940.
In 1941/42 NYC had fifteen, PRR had nine (one S1, two T1, five K4s, one Q1). When fifty production T1 arrived in 1945/46, Pennsy had fifty-eight (Q1 was de-streamlined) but NYC started de-streamlining the Dreyfuss engines.
Miningman 6) A really nice transfer type caboose on the Chicago Great Western another sad fallen flag famous for its monster F unit lashups and monster trains. Virtually none of its track exists today.
Place some small tables and chairs on both ends, convert the shed into a kitchen, that will give us a new outdoor coffee shop; hook it to a PRR T1, traveling at 100mph, all axlebox on fire, priceless travel experience.
I can confirm that the lead unit on the right hand train as viewed is an Alco.
The third unit on the left train as viewed could be an Alco but the hood looks more like a GE to me...
At least one Alco...
Peter
Interesting, that shot of those three pre-war diesels.
The one on the left looks like it's looking for something.
The one in the middle looks like it found it!
The one on the right looks like it could care less.
Oh well, a function looking for a form I suppose.
Jonesy-- 100 mph behind a T1 drinking a cappuccino sitting on the deck of a CGW transfer caboose... fine, you go first, I'll take pics. Recommend a seat belt.
M636C-- The locomotive on the right is one of those famous 'Alligators' #9043. I am going to assume that the smokin' locomotive two behind GP35 #3436 is one as well but we may never know for sure, but c'mon it's gotta be!
Jones1945 Yes, they were indeed impressive. I have started reading the book "Union Pacific Streamliners" by William Kratville, Harold E. Ranks recently, and am really impressed by UP's management. They made a wise choice of choosing power and put a lot of effort to make their passenger trains the best of the best. I wish UP kept the pre-war livery color.
A very informative book loaded with a lot of details. I picked up my copy in 1977 and am still running across something I hadn't noticed in previous readings. One example is that the locomotives drawings usually have a table of tractive effort versus speed that I first noticed in the last year or so.
- Erik
The Horseshoe Curve photo improved with MS Photo Editor Automatic Balance:
Jones1945Place some small tables and chairs on both ends, convert the shed into a kitchen, that will give us a new outdoor coffee shop; hook it to a PRR T1, traveling at 100mph, all axlebox on fire, priceless travel experience.
One you won't forget for the rest of your life!
(All joking aside, you might get one of those things to track reasonably well above 90mph with a proper pair of three-piece trucks, on any line that will accomodate a T1 at that speed. I am still in awe that interchange cars could reliably to do this on the Super C when it was still possible to run true 90mph peak freight service! Even ordinary AP cartridge bearings ought to take this without too much nastiness, but you could always get the South Africans to sell you something to puff a little fire around them now and again, strictly for effect and not to ward off hoboes, photo lines creeping too close, and other distractions.
And if not, modify things just a bit and substitute a pair of modern disc-brake passenger trucks...
Seat belts? You might want 5-point harnesses. (And a self-aligning BRS safety rig for when, not if, you got blown in the air...)
Somewhere, someone was talking about these. Old PRR intermodal-type container that was in our old yard before it was all ripped up/scrapped. Still several around the other yards, but I don't think this one survived. Nothing good was in it - one of the supervisors cut the lock, but it didn't have the new in box PRR position signals that I was hoping for.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmannOld PRR intermodal-type container that was in our old yard before it was all ripped up/scrapped.
Those should be preserved, or at least offered or sold to museums with a relevant mission or interest. You might post this over on RyPN and have anyone with actual interest PM you from there...
We had a "Southern Intermodal Freight" van trailer over at the NS intermodal yard adjacent to the Memphis Coliseum for heaven knows how many years. Then the yard was ripped up for reconfiguration a couple of years and all the sentimental stuff pulled out.
Except this -- they ran it around the side and parked it carefully adjacent to one of the access roads. Awaiting its preservation opportunity when someone concerned with the modern history of effective railroading comes to see.
OvermodThose should be preserved, or at least offered or sold to museums with a relevant mission or interest. You might post this over on RyPN and have anyone with actual interest PM you from there...
Not my department. I don't own them, and most of them are still being used for storage. Unfortunately when they sold the yard, it was lock, stock, and barrel. I wish I would have had known a day or two when we moved, I would have grabbed some signs off the building. There was also a baggage car body and an old reefer car body on site that are gone.
Now the BJ's wholesale club near me had a beautiful Rock Island trailer. That's gone, but another ex-RR trailer is in its place. I forget whose, it wasn't as original as the RI one, but you could still read the old markings.
Up in the Peace River area (northern Alberta) CN was still using at least one wood-sided stock car for material storage as of a few years ago.
zugmann Now the BJ's wholesale club near me had a beautiful Rock Island trailer. That's gone, but another ex-RR trailer is in its place. I forget whose, it wasn't as original as the RI one, but you could still read the old markings.
I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field. I'll have to keep an eye on it, maybe one day it too will be considered a desirable antique.
No idea what brought it to Alberta.
It's here, you can even read the writing on the side in Street View:
53.561230, -114.738298
SD70DudeI know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field...
Too lazy to key it up on this older computer -- is it white or one of the gray ones?
As far as I remember, these were special dedicated service, largely for USPS, and at one time for specific city pairs in lanes as painted right on the trailer side. (I think the Mercury referred to the Roman god of speed and swift completion of appointed rounds, rather than the NYC Detroit train ... but always prepared to hear a better story!)
Someone like Don Oltmann could probably comment on what special construction or gear was used in these to make them intermodal in this service, above and beyond what made a trailer a "Trail Van". Certainly an interesting part of history ... but probably not interesting to enough people quite yet. And as with so much else in the railroad industry ... gone or scrapped before that interest progresses to spending money and volunteering time.
Overmod SD70Dude I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field... Too lazy to key it up on this older computer -- is it white or one of the gray ones?
SD70Dude I know where there is a 'Conrail Mercury' intermodal container rusting away on the edge of a local farmer's field...
It's light grey. It looks like the number and some other writing is still there but I can't quite read it in street view. I'll have to stop and take a quick look the next time I travel that way.
Overmod One you won't forget for the rest of your life! (All joking aside, you might get one of those things to track reasonably well above 90mph with a proper pair of three-piece trucks, on any line that will accomodate a T1 at that speed. I am still in awe that interchange cars could reliably to do this on the Super C when it was still possible to run true 90mph peak freight service! Even ordinary AP cartridge bearings ought to take this without too much nastiness, but you could always get the South Africans to sell you something to puff a little fire around them now and again, strictly for effect and not to ward off hoboes, photo lines creeping too close, and other distractions. And if not, modify things just a bit and substitute a pair of modern disc-brake passenger trucks... Seat belts? You might want 5-point harnesses. (And a self-aligning BRS safety rig for when, not if, you got blown in the air...)
I forgot to mention the "beach umbrella" attach to the table on the "outdoor coffee car", could have invited the company that can make the strongest umbrella in human history; a solid roof would be too forgettable, predictable and unchallenging. Pennsy needed a car like this on the Broadway Ltd, that would have helped them to turn the table. A "waiver of liability" had to be signed before entering the car though. : (
A 90mph+ freight train! That was probably something a freight steam engine could never achieve...... of course someone could attach a single boxcar behind an ATSF 4-8-4s and called it a freight train, just as how the "official" steam engine speed record was made. The PRR Q1 once reached 70mph hauling 10000 tons on level track at 40% cutoff, PRR S1 was 3mph faster with 100 freight cars behind her, probably the fastest freight train speed record...... please enlighten me if there was any faster steam-powered freight train!
Imagine that banner was a very strong rubber band:
https://www.kshs.org/index.php?url=km/items/view/227017
Jones--Nice pic on the Super C .. a photo worth further discussion as the thread implies. Perhaps the umbrella plant that built the Sardonicus Talgo Train could build your ultimate umbrella.
Built in an umbrella factory!
Mr. Sardonicus
David-- Thanks for the enhanced Horseshoe Curve photo.. it is claimed to be the first photo of a scheduled train on Horseshoe.
Whenever I see that thing it just makes me want to yell out what the???????
Miningman Jones--Nice pic on the Super C .. a photo worth further discussion as the thread implies. Perhaps the umbrella plant that built the Sardonicus Talgo Train could build your ultimate umbrella. Built in an umbrella factory! Mr. Sardonicus
Who would have thought that Talgo would turn out to be a successful locomotive manufacturer in 1942!
Some good stuff from Arts and Culture Google:
https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/dAJSHI2dUkr-Ig
11:09, some interior shot inside the Talgo II. Note the color temperature of those fluorescent light used inside the car was around 4500K "sunshine daylight" instead of those 6500K "overcast daylight" fluorescent light tube that overwhelmed the planet in the 1970s.
Penny Trains Whenever I see that thing it just makes me want to yell out what the???????
Makes me want to get a can of "Raid" or "D-Con." Or a good, strong, flyswatter!
I found my cellphone grabshot of the RI trailer.
Very nice. Imagine stumbling upon that on a foggy morning... like seeing a ghost! A "mighty fine line", ...once a household name.
Dee-Leeted
Like seeing a ghost all right, the Rock Island's been gone since 1980.
Three, maybe four years ago I saw an old, moldy, rusty and crusty boxcar come thorugh Richmond with that "Rock" marking on it. That was a bit of a shock.
They say boxcars are on the way out. I don't know, some of them aren't going without a fight!
It's still fairly common to see 'Bankruptcy Blue' grain hoppers in CN trains out here. I think Illinois Central bought a big chunk of Rock Island's fleet after the final shutdown.
Some still say "The Rock" or "Route Rock", albeit in ever-fading paint.
A vast system serving the heartland, stretching West, North and South. With multiple routes to each.
Yet another how could this happen story.
Trains and/or Classic Trains have had several really good articles covering the later years of the Rock Island system.
What that map doesn't show is that Rock Island's lines went very few places that were not already served by competing railroads, usually took a longer and slower route, and usually involved trackage rights over competing railroads in major terminals.
The simple, unfortunate fact is that the Midwest railroad system had way too much track to be profitably supported by the remaining traffic in the post-WWII era. Rock Island drew the short straw as the "one-railroad too many", as I believe one of the articles put it.
If the merger with UP had been allowed to go ahead as originally proposed I wonder if the C&NW would have suffered Rock Island's fate instead.
"One railroad too many." Yeah, the same thing happened in the Northeastern US. The collapse of the anthracite trade, the "Rust Belt" phenomenon, and the Erie, the Lackawanna, the Lehigh and New England, the Lehigh and Hudson River, the Jersey Central and others found themselves in big trouble.
Too many railroads, not enough business. And then the superhighways and the trucks.
Doom.
Erie RR station in Susquehanna, PA.
Stumbled across this picture of the Erie RR fabulous station. Now I know Susquehanna is no Cleveland or Buffalo so why the enormity of this station? Kind of reminds me of St. Thomas, Ont. along the CASO.
That is quite a structure!
It was called Starrucca House, and not only was it a station, it was a hotel with a capacity for 200 guests!
Susquehanna PA was also the site of a major repair facility for the Erie. Here's the whole story...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_station
Fascinating. Quite the history. Thank you.
WAY better looking than the Cleveland station:
I'll tell you who did have a neat station in Cleveland, the Wheeling and Lake Erie:
Can't say I'm totally unhappy with what replaced these 2 stations...
Is that Cleveland by way of Youngstown?
The thing that amazes me about the Starrucca House is the size of it, and it was built in 1863! 1863!
That place is bigger than most of the factories we had here in the US in 1863! But not for long, of course.
Love that black and white shot of the Wheeling and Lake Erie station! Reminds me of a German restaurant! I wonder if it had a bar with Lowenbrau on tap?
That film from the 70's is a very interesting time capsule, but a bit depressing. Dirty diesels, dirty cars, weed-grown yards and right-of-ways, that muddy-looking station stop, just the general air of decay.
Reminds me of a line from Walter Lord concerning dying transportation systems...
"The railroads sagged into decrepitude like a Bowery bum!"
Well, it was the era of course. Times were tough for the railroads, especially the ones in the Northeast.
I like that picture of the crossing watchman's tower; it reminds me of the one that used to be at the Southern's mainline crossing of State Street in Bristol. That one was on the Tennessee side of the crossing (the station was on the Virginia side). One day, as I was walking back to the college, a friend drove up and stopped on the crossing. We began talking. When the watchman noticed us, he began ringing his bell and lowering the gates--even though no movement was approaching. We took the hint and moved on.
There was a sign at the base of the tower, that read "No loitering allowed," which someone had altered by adding a "w" to the end of the first word and inserting "is" after "loitering."
Johnny
Flintlock states " That film from the 70's is a very interesting time capsule, but a bit depressing. Dirty diesels, dirty cars, weed-grown yards and right-of-ways, that muddy-looking station stop, just the general air of decay.
Well, it was the era of course. Times were tough for the railroads, especially the ones in the Northeast."
Sad and barely understandable
White lined Centipede, busted windows, no dignity
The mighty New York Central. No dignity here either.
Flintlock76The thing that amazes me about the Starrucca House is the size of it, and it was built in 1863! 1863! That place is bigger than most of the factories we had here in the US in 1863! But not for long, of course.
A contemporary of Starrucca House was Cleveland's old Union Depot:
It was built in 1864 after the original wood station burned down. Lincoln came through the original on his way to Washington in 61 and his body passed through the replacement in 65.
Tearjerker coming! Here's a local tv news film of it's demolition in 1959:
In the end only the Pennsy used it. Here's the one that never was:
It was part of the original "group plan" for Cleveland that was interrupted by WW1 initially and later by the Van Sweringen's ambitions.
Flintlock76Love that black and white shot of the Wheeling and Lake Erie station! Reminds me of a German restaurant! I wonder if it had a bar with Lowenbrau on tap?
No idea! Maybe one of the 26 locals such as Gehring, Schlather, Star, Fishel, Bohemian, Columbia, Gund, Leisy, Pilsener or Diebolt. The favorite of many was Standard's "Erin Brew" or "Ehren Breu" to appeal to the city's equally large German population.
Anyhoo. Here's some more of the W&LE station on "Vinegar Hill", which I'm sure was NOT served at local pubs!
It came down in 1929 to facilitate construction of the east approaches to the CUT.
Very nice compilation Penny... insightful. Luv the history and the information.
Penny Trains WAY better looking than the Cleveland station: Can't say I'm totally unhappy with what replaced these 2 stations...
Upper pic: Good old days when even a private utility was built by handmade wooden structure and decoration!
Lower pic: I wish I could travel every top floor of these vintage skyscrapers in America, explore all the secret stairs, rooms on the top proportion of these towers. I note there are apartment units for rent on the Terminal Tower nowadays.
That magnificent Cleveland Union Depot, built not for a time, but ALL time!
And I'll bet they had their hands full knocking it down too! I'm sure it didn't go easily.
Yes, we can be logical as all get-out and say "Well, it outlived it's usefulness, and the concept of re-purposing hadn't been thought of yet, so it had to go," but still, when I see something like that the words of the dying Christ pop into my mind...
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!"
I was under the impression that the Tower and Union Station built by the van Sweringans (Sp?) still exists, with two tracks for the Green and Blue lines (Shaker Heightds - Watefront) and two for the Red Line (Airport - W...?) and much of the rest of the track area a parking lot, but the buiding still used for offices and shops and restaurants. No?
daveklepperI was under the impression that the Tower and Union Station built by the van Sweringens (note sp.) still exists ...
It does. They're referring to the Union Depot Penny posted.
I don't know the reason(s) the PRR kept using the facility, but as noted they were the last to use it, and they did right up until it began to be demolished in 1959.
The 'replacement' for that depot was supposed to be the gray building 'on the lakefront' that Penny also posted. That was stillborn on account of the Great War and the depression that followed in the early Twenties, and when the idea of a 'new' union station was taken up again Mantis and Oris left their very distinctive stamp on the project...
Thanks!
Jones1945Lower pic: I wish I could travel every top floor of these vintage skyscrapers in America, explore all the secret stairs, rooms on the top proportion of these towers. I note there are apartment units for rent on the Terminal Tower nowadays.
Well there's the Greenbrier Suite which was the Van's home but it's part of a law firm these days:
The view from up top has changed a bit since 1928:
The photo above looks north toward the 1864 Union Depot.
The tall white building on the right is the Ohio Bell building which is purported to be the model for "The Daily Planet" because of it's array of antennas on the roof.
Looking towards "the oxbow".
Southwest flats.
This is the west approach showing the CUT viaduct with it's catenary fanning out into the coach yards.
Now, if you reallywant a top down view...
Construction train. I assume these switchers were owned by the construction company but since the CUT was part owned by the New York Central they may have belonged to them.
The view today:
The brick building to the right of the white tent (outdoor stage) accross the river is the old powerhouse for the city's trolley network.
Looking down on Public Square and "The Old Stone Church" as Clevelanders call it.
East. The Engineer's bank building is in there somewhere.
And yes, you can live there these days:
https://www.terminaltower.com/
Beware the ghost!
Considering the view the Van Sweringens had from their apartment I'm amazed they got any work done running their empire!
Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything?
I thought I'd add a pretty classic photo, from the source introduced by North West in the Israeli Locomotive thread.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/40528159793/
The discussion regarding the photo on the webpage is pretty much correct except for the date. This photo was taken in 1905 and was the third of a group of four taken to illustrate the development of passenger trains for the 50th anniversary of the NSW railways.
I know this because many years ago I inspected the old Stephenson locomotive No.1 in the Museum (only allowed by request with an attendant). On the locomotive footplate were the four photos, enlarged and in wooden frames, and had possibly been there since 1905 (although the loco was pulled out again and replaced in 1955- I (just) remember seeing it.)
These days the loco is on open display and I don't know what happened to those particular prints.
The first of the series illustrated the Stephenson 0-4-2 No. 1 (actually No. 2 renumbered) with a train of four wheeled vehicles. Close examination of the photo showed that the passenger cars had duplicate stock numbers, introduced in 1891.
The second photo showed a C class 4-4-0, so far in its original condition with round top firebox and open cab, hauling a train with Redfern type compartment cars and an 1870s Pullman type sleeping car.
The fourth photo included a Mann-type compartment sleeping car with the Pullman styled sitting cars, and there may have been a more modern mail van...
The loco 513 was in fact the 42nd of the first 50 P class and was delivered with a six wheel tender, so the tender had been replaced by 1905.
Very nice. Beebe would approve. Gorgeous train.
MidlandMike Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything?
Penny Trains This is the west approach showing the CUT viaduct with it's catenary fanning out into the coach yards. Now, if you reallywant a top down view... Construction train. I assume these switchers were owned by the construction company but since the CUT was part owned by the New York Central they may have belonged to them.
Amazing view! I just realize that the Terminal Tower was even taller than the Chicago Board of Trade Building in terms of roof height, highest occupied floor and pinnacle height when built! Both towers were built during the Great Depression, the citizens of Cleveland probably had no mood to celebrate its completion.
The proposed 1450ft, 100-floor Metropolitan Life Insurance North Building in New York, my favorite "never finish" skyscraper was another victim of the Great Depression. It would have been awesome if it was built above the New York Penn Station instead of Madison Avenue & 25th Street.
1) Here's a pic that, despite Diesels, will make Flintlock 'pine for the days when'. The Erie crossing Starrucca with the Erie Limited in resplendent shades of green Very heavy with the Mail and Express, business looks good.
2) Canadian Pacific always always always kept their steam looking top notch, even the lowly little ancient stuff. 4-6-0 #424, a D4g, in Ottawa, 1956
3) Nice nice, maybe one of the better paint schemes on a RS2.
D&M RS-2 466 was the first RS-2, built in 1946. After some 40+ years of service on the D&M it was sold to the Tuscola & Saginaw Bay and then to the Michigan Southern. Sadly I believe this very historic locomotive was scrapped in 2011. Unknown photographer.
4) A Schnabel Car... just because, they are so magnificient! We don't talk about Schnabels enough!
5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary.
One last parting look at CPR station in Goderich, Ontario. It was not demolished but it has been moved and is now a restaurant.
Miningman5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary.
How about the brakemen? Jumping from car to car with a brake club in hand in a raging blizzard! Yikes!
I'm glad it was saved but I would have loved to live in it right where it was!
Jones1945Amazing view!
The river view is enhanced a bit because of the fact that the terminal complex is about 90 feet above river level:
That's the 3,112 foot long Detroit Superior bridge which had Cleveland's subway tracks on it's lower level. I took this pic in 1993 shortly before it was renovated. If you look carefully you can see the CUT now RTA Cuyahoga Viaduct and one of it's distinctive catenary bridges through the arches. You can also see the Rockefeller Building peeking through the tree on the left edge.
rcdrye MidlandMike Is the CUT viaduct across the river still used for anything? It's still used for the Red Line to the Airport. Four track ROW, only two north (RTA) tracks remain.
It's still used for the Red Line to the Airport. Four track ROW, only two north (RTA) tracks remain.
Some Cleveland Plain Dealer photos:
It's about to become the "Red Line Greenway": https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/about/cleveland-metroparks-organization/planning/re-connecting-cleveland-tiger-grant-project/red-line-greenway
I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat.
Penny Trains Miningman 5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary. How about the brakemen? Jumping from car to car with a brake club in hand in a raging blizzard! Yikes! I'm glad it was saved but I would have loved to live in it right where it was!
Miningman 5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary.
I've always loved those old-style stations with a Witch's hat. While a different design, the old brick CP station at South Edmonton still exists, and has host a succession of nightclubs and bars since being vacated by the railroad.
The Duhamel trestle was located just southwest of Camrose, AB, where the GTP's Edmonton-Calgary line crossed the Battle River, which is in a very deep, wide valley that was carved by a glacial outburst flood approximately 10,000 years ago. Like many pioneer bridges it was built out of untreated timber, and did not last.
After Canadian National was formed the stretch of ex-GTP track from Duhamel to Barlee Jct (north Camrose) was abandoned, and all trains moved to the ex-Canadian Northern line that is still in operation today. A short connecting line (Ferlow Jct Cutoff) was built east from Duhamel to connect the southern half of the ex-GTP line to the ex-CNoR track, allowing the abandonment of the now-rotting trestle.
The Camrose area at the time of CN's formation:
https://railways.library.ualberta.ca/Maps-9-1-7/
Love those photos Vince! Let me see here...
Photo one, good old Starucca Viaduct. Makes me pine for the "days when" all right!
HAIL CAESAR! Yep, when the designer of the viaduct needed something that would work, well, what better than a Roman aqueduct for inspiration? Starucca's still there, doing what it was meant to do.
Photo three. That RS-2 paint scheme looks strikingly similar to the first Susquehanna RS-1 scheme. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Have a look. http://archive.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hors1/7123.jpg
Photo five. I don't know, that trestle looks pretty well built. I don't think an engineer would have any hesitation about running over it. But if I was a brakeman and someone told me to climb the cars in a howling blizzard running over that trestle I'd have two words for him, and they wouldn't be "Yes sir!"
Interestingly, veteran railroader and rail writer Bill Knapke (He started railroading in the 1880's!) said that stopping a freight train of the late 19th Century, like the one pictured, wasn't all that difficult. What they did was load the caboose heavily with ballast to increase it's weight, then chain the brakes of the last freight car to the caboose brakes. When the engineer whistled "Down brakes!" tightening the caboose brake wheel was enough to slow and stop the train, assuming the engineer was doing his part on the head end. But as Bill said, you could only get away with this on the relatively short freight trains of the time.
Penny Trains The river view is enhanced a bit because of the fact that the terminal complex is about 90 feet above river level: That's the 3,112 foot long Detroit Superior bridge which had Cleveland's subway tracks on it's lower level. I took this pic in 1993 shortly before it was renovated. If you look carefully you can see the CUT now RTA Cuyahoga Viaduct and one of it's distinctive catenary bridges through the arches. You can also see the Rockefeller Building peeking through the tree on the left edge.
Impressive infrastructure! It seems to me that Cleveland is quite underrated; the size of the city is not the largest in Ohio, but she has all these magnificent bridges and skyscrapers that people can't find in other much larger cities. Spectacular buildings like the Cuyahoga Viaduct, deserve even more international exposure. : )
MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat.
Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
By Michael Barera, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=42627073
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit%E2%80%93Superior_Bridge
By the way on November 11th 1989 it was officially renamed the "Veterans Memorial Bridge". Not to be confused with the Hope Memorial Bridge, formerly the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge it's neighbor to the east:
By Jet Lowe - This image is available from the United States Library of Congress's Prints and Photographs divisionunder the digital ID hhh.oh0101.This tag does not indicate the copyright status of the attached work. A normal copyright tag is still required. See Commons:Licensing for more information., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1071290
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_Memorial_Bridge
Local legend is mixed on just who or whom the bridge was renamed for in 1983. Many Clevelanders assume it's for Leslie Townes "Bob" Hope who grew up on the east side. Others claim it's for his father, William Henry "Harry" Hope who was a stonemason and helped erect the "Guardians of Traffic", one of which was supposed to contain an entrance stairway to the subway deck on the bridge's lower level. The subway expansion never happened but the rail deck was built.
By Carptrash at the English language Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=16311846
Speaking of Bob Hope, I sat in front of the building on the far right in the pic below in 1996 for Cleveland's Bicentennial Celebration:
Colored floodlights were installed on all of the big bridges.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomsheridan/16194032778/in/photostream/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/188517934372348793/
Bob and Delores Hope sailed by in a glass box enclosure on the deck of a small ship. I don't know if this is their boat or not, but it looks like what I remember.
https://rinestock.com/studio-b/
Here's a bit of video I found from local TV:
The compression of the sound will give you a bit of an earache though.
Cleveland gets a bad rap because of this 1952 photo:
https://www.wired.com/2011/06/0622cleveland-cuyahoga-river-fire-burns-again/
To keep it short, Time magazine ran a story using this 1952 photo to illustrate an article about a small railroad bridge fire that occurred on June 22nd 1969. In fact the fire was sparked by molten metal from a slag car running at the mill and the bridge and only the bridge caught fire. The river did not spontaineously combust as most believe.
But, the article was included in THE best selling issue of Time magazine of all time: the one that included coverage of the flight of Apollo 11!
Thanks for those impressive photos Becky, and I wholeheartedly concur with Mr. Jones, Cleveland doesn't have to take a back-seat to anyone when it comes to the magnificence of its railroad architecture!
Penny TrainsPenny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
For comparison, the Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River built about the same time had 152' clearance. Maybe the low clearance of the Cleveland bridges had already been set in earlier years. The other 2 big bridges, Blue Water and Mackinac, were also in the 150' range. However, the Soo bridge was only 124'.
1) Busy time in Field, BC. I count six active steam locomotives. Perhaps there are others. That's a lot of crews.
2) Still in the mountains. Newly painted power in the old colours is looking mighty fine. A great look with the 'action red' containers.
3) In between the first pic 'then' and the one above 'now' we had a mix of colour schemes and builders. FM/CLC CLiner leading an interesting mix of power now vanished.
4) Oil from Wainwright Alberta's oil fields being shipped by rail in the 1920's. Wainwright is on the CNR mainline and the CNR was both a shipper and consumer of oil from the Wainwright and Lloydminster oil fields.
Alberta, and all the West, may have to revert to this practice considering the Federal Government's current stated policies.
5) Streetcars in Ottawa. Now there is an Ottawa streetcar thread here on Classic, but draw your attention to the Classic Woolworth store ( no longer with us) and the Laura Secord chocolate shop ( still with us). Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
6) The B&O Abraham Lincoln. Kinda strange looking really. My understanding is that it did not pan out to well as account of a rough ride and not up to B&O's standards. They spun it off to B&O controlled Alton.
7) Nice painting eh? When steam was King! Tugboats, ships, locomotives!
MidlandMike Penny Trains Penny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch: For comparison, the Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River built about the same time had 152' clearance. Maybe the low clearance of the Cleveland bridges had already been set in earlier years. The other 2 big bridges, Blue Water and Mackinac, were also in the 150' range. However, the Soo bridge was only 124'.
Penny Trains Penny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
Yeah, but those waterways are much more navigable for much longer distances than the Cuyahoga River. The Cuyahoga is only navigable for 5 miles (8km) from it's mouth to what is currently the ArcelorMittal Steel Works at a dredged depth of 27 feet (8.2m). (This was the Republic mill in case anyone's wondering.)
Here's our local ore freighter museum:
By JuanPDP - Own work, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1168122
By Laszlo Ilyes from Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Take a Bow, CC BY 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1981815
Miningman 6) The B&O Abraham Lincoln. Kinda strange looking really. My understanding is that it did not pan out to well as account of a rough ride and not up to B&O's standards. They spun it off to B&O controlled Alton.
Of course it looked like this new....
I think B&O's solution was better than that of ATSF...
Agreed Peter. That Santa Fe treatment is, well, embarrassing.
OTOH, EMD hadn't yet learned their lesson on how to provide cooling air for the radiators with the very first E's (E for eighteen hunder horsepower).
Those B&O and Santa Fe diesels? Well what can we say? They were still a function looking for their form back then.
The head-end crews weren't too crazy about them either, there wasn't 50 feet of boiler up front giving them any kind of collision protection. A bit unnerving if you hadn't started out as a trolley, interurban, or subway train driver.
Our Mounties are the best! Didn't think I'd ever have 2 Mounties in my back yard at 4 am with two hands on their pistols pointed as they approached the garage door last Saturday, but hey, they learned from this guy!
So while we're on the subject of guns .. "take out your ticket nice and slow there fella".
I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people!
Ditto the Union Pacific 'Union Pacific' type 4-12-2. Again look at the size of that fella walking alongside and the railroader oiling around standing on the cowcatcher.
Geology I Mid Term tomorrow, 3 hour exam. I'll be wearing my Tshirt that is the Avatar I use on this Forum. ( over a turtleneck, too darn cold otherwise). Mining I was held on Tuesday this week. They are still reeling the poor featherless goslings. They'll be ok... in time.
Penny Trains Speaking of Bob Hope, I sat in front of the building on the far right in the pic below in 1996 for Cleveland's Bicentennial Celebration:
Stunning capture and composition, Becky! The shadow on the river, the rowing boat, the boat that was saluting, and the B&O Cuyahoga River Bridge; I love how you "skipped" the tip of the bridge for a better composition, which nicely moved the focus to the boats a bit. Before the introduction of the digital camera, we have to carry several rolls of films before leaving home for events or traveling, and we have to make fast decisions to capture the best picture within a short period of time with limited films available, that really require skills. : )
Miningman Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
I would have picked the streetcar instead of driving if there were streetcar serving between my office and my home in the downtown, even though there weren't that many potholes in the road. Imagine after a day of hard work, you finally relieved and met some familiar faces, good friends on the streetcar, it would be like an after-work party! The streetcar could be crowded, but it helped people who took them every day or every other day to save a lot of money. And if you love streetcar, every ride is priceless.
Miningman I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people!
She was 16 ft tall, almost 2 ft taller than a London Routemaster double-decker bus. Folks were facing to the 1500hp reverse turbine housing and 68" drivers.
Flintlock76 Those B&O and Santa Fe diesels? Well what can we say? They were still a function looking for their form back then. The head-end crews weren't too crazy about them either, there wasn't 50 feet of boiler up front giving them any kind of collision protection. A bit unnerving if you hadn't started out as a trolley, interurban, or subway train driver.
I thought she actually hit something thus the funny flat nose..... I can't remember if I have seen a brass train of this one......
The Abraham Lincoln was built to run on the Alton, B&O-controlled at the time. The trainset was one of two built for the B&O in 1935, the other was the Royal Blue for a whiile before it, too, ended up on the Alton, without the EMC. Both of the photos are of the same unit, B&O 50. The nose was altered later. B&O 50 still exists at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
Santa Fe's two Super Chief units were rebuilt in very different ways. Number 1 ("Amos", of "Amos and Andy") was rebuilt into the odd shape shown above, and retrucked to 1B-1B, as was 1A ("Andy") renumbered 10. The beetle brow was basically an air scoop. Both were rebuilt into freight locomotives with B-B Blomberg trucks in 1948, as 2610 and 2611.
Miningman Our Mounties are the best! Didn't think I'd ever have 2 Mounties in my back yard at 4 am with two hands on their pistols pointed as they approached the garage door last Saturday, but hey, they learned from this guy! So while we're on the subject of guns .. "take out your ticket nice and slow there fella". I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people! Ditto the Union Pacific 'Union Pacific' type 4-12-2. Again look at the size of that fella walking alongside and the railroader oiling around standing on the cowcatcher. Geology I Mid Term tomorrow, 3 hour exam. I'll be wearing my Tshirt that is the Avatar I use on this Forum. ( over a turtleneck, too darn cold otherwise). Mining I was held on Tuesday this week. They are still reeling the poor featherless goslings. They'll be ok... in time.
Great shots!
Picture one. What can I say, it takes real class to go into action wearing your "Dress Reds!" Got to love the Mounties, some of the best cops in the world!
Picture two. Hmm, those guys mean business! Must be an important shipment coming in or the railroad pay train. Let's see, that looks like a good ol' Winchester '94 "Thirty-thirty" the guy in front is holding. The other two are holding what I think are tear gas guns. The man on the left looks like he's got a belt full of gas grenades as well.
Pictures three and four. It always astounds me, although it shouldn't by this time, just how massive railroad locomotives can be. Ever stand next to a Big Boy or a C&O Allegheny? The size of those things will take your breath away in a way a diesel never could.
Perhaps to maintain order and protect property from a violent strike.
Hard to believe that S2 has such a short life. It has been put forth it could have been successful in time. It's issues could have been worked out given time and desire but by then the Diesels doomed it anyway. I understand it sucked water out of the tender at an alarming rate, besides Westinghouse wanted their turbine back.
I wonder if we will ever see a 4-12-2 restored to operation. Just never know how.. never say never.
As for the Mounties (RCMP) they certainly do have very high standards and are our police force here in Saskatchewan. Once in a while, here and there, you see a few of them in their Red Serge. Quite stunning.
Speaking of quite stunning I've been wearing my 'Miners Dig Deep' T shirt today. A colleague stated " you look like a Hell's Angel".. wasn't quite sure how to take that.
Jones1945Stunning capture and composition, Becky! The shadow on the river, the rowing boat, the boat that was saluting, and the B&O Cuyahoga River Bridge; I love how you "skipped" the tip of the bridge for a better composition, which nicely moved the focus to the boats a bit. Before the introduction of the digital camera, we have to carry several rolls of films before leaving home for events or traveling, and we have to make fast decisions to capture the best picture within a short period of time with limited films available, that really require skills. : )
This one was my favorite from that roll:
I did the MS walk in 1993 and of course I took my trusty cheapo 35mm Kodak along. (I think it was a freebie from a gas station or something! But it took pretty darn good photos for a point and shoot! )
Aftyer the walk they treated us to a concert by Beatles tribute band "1964" at the Nautica Amphitheater, that white tent in the center. Great show!
If you guys like Railroad Stories covers, check out these 2 databases: http://www.magazineart.org/main.php/v/pulpspecialized/railroad/
https://pulpcovers.com/?s=railroad+stories
I print them out and hang them on my bedroom walls along with framed tin signs. These are the Christmas versions, there are also summer pics: an SP cab forward, an engineer oiling a boy's toy locomotive and Hulett unloaders.
I alter the covers so they have the same matching red header. The summer pics have blue backgrounds.
That illustration of the engineer oiling the kid's toy locomotive could have been used for a pre-war Lionel catalog cover, or an American Flyer one for that matter!
And you did pretty good with that "cheapo Kodak 35mm" Becky! A professional photographer told me years ago that the camera isn't as important as the skill of the person using it is. You can own the most expensive camera in the world but if you don't know what you're doing with it, what good is it?
Flintlock76 That illustration of the engineer oiling the kid's toy locomotive could have been used for a pre-war Lionel catalog cover, or an American Flyer one for that matter! And you did pretty good with that "cheapo Kodak 35mm" Becky! A professional photographer told me years ago that the camera isn't as important as the skill of the person using it is. You can own the most expensive camera in the world but if you don't know what you're doing with it, what good is it?
Exactly. I miss my "cheapo Kodak", and the exciting moment when I got the photos and processed films back from the camera shop. : )
I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more.
This is the bottom of the steel arch portion of the Detroit-Superior bridge before the remodel:
I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs:
Tower City Center fka Cleveland Union Terminal:
The as yet unnamed Gateway project soon to be known as Jacobs Field:
And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit:
The bottom of that Detroit-Superior bridge! Wow, what fantastic iron work! A work of art in its own right. Just look at it! I just don't have the words.
As amazing as any of the lost Seven Wonders.
Penny Trains Thanks! I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more. ... I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs: And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit:
...
B&O had 3 Bascule rolling lift drawbridges in Cleveland. Bridge 460 at the North end of B&O's Clark Ave. Yard. Bridge 463 & Bridge 464 were about a block apart, and were operated by the same individual, on the B&O line to the interchange with the NYC at Whiskey Island. It was less than 50 car lengths between the North End of Bridge 464 and the entrance to the Whiskey Island interchange track - each track holding 35 cars and when the B&O engine pulled the last cut of a 100 car coal train into the interchange, they had to get permission from the NYC Operator at Drawbridge to open the switch at the West end of the interchange and use the NYC Main to run back to the East end and clear back into B&O trackage - Permission could not be grated until the last Controlled Signal on that track had been set to stop - That Controlled Signal was at Elyria - it could take HOURS to get the engines back on B&O track.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Penny Trains Thanks! I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more. ... I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs: And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit: B&O had 3 Bascule rolling lift drawbridges in Cleveland. Bridge 460 at the North end of B&O's Clark Ave. Yard. Bridge 463 & Bridge 464 were about a block apart, and were operated by the same individual, on the B&O line to the interchange with the NYC at Whiskey Island. It was less than 50 car lengths between the North End of Bridge 464 and the entrance to the Whiskey Island interchange track - each track holding 35 cars and when the B&O engine pulled the last cut of a 100 car coal train into the interchange, they had to get permission from the NYC Operator at Drawbridge to open the switch at the West end of the interchange and use the NYC Main to run back to the East end and clear back into B&O trackage - Permission could not be grated until the last Controlled Signal on that track had been set to stop - That Controlled Signal was at Elyria - it could take HOURS to get the engines back on B&O track.
OK. So then what I captured was both B&O bridges on the west bank? In the "rowing" photo you can see the tip of the bridge by Shooter's poking up above the power house.
Flintlock76 The bottom of that Detroit-Superior bridge! Wow, what fantastic iron work! A work of art in its own right. Just look at it! I just don't have the words. As amazing as any of the lost Seven Wonders.
This is what the best part looked like:
This next one always makes me think of Jimmy Stewart.
And this one makes me think of Sinatra.
This is one of my favorites:
I couldn't find a photo but rumor has it acrophobes were well advised to keep their eyes inside the car while passing over the steel arch section as there were only ties between you and the river 90 feet below!
Great stuff Becky! Thanks a lot!
You know, there's a lesson in all this. As railfans we can get fixated on our own neck of the woods to the exclusion of others and lose sight of the fact there's a whole lot of ralroadin' world out there, not just trains but architecture as well. I'm ashamed to admit I never would have thought Cleveland had such structures in and around it. Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to California and seen a lot, but it never entered my mind.
Flintlock76Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to
Years ago a New York City woman of about 50 asked my friend where he was from. When he replied Dubuque, Iowa she laughed and said, "We pronounce it Ohio here."
New Yorkers are sometimes very provincial people themselves.
NKP guy Flintlock76 Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to Years ago a New York City woman of about 50 asked my friend where he was from. When he replied Dubuque, Iowa she laughed and said, "We pronounce it Ohio here." New Yorkers are sometimes very provincial people themselves.
Flintlock76 Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to
They can be brother.
Ever see that "New Yorker" magazine cover (made into a famous poster) where New York City prominantly occupies most of the foreground, and in great detail, but the rest of the country shrinks to insignificance west of the Hudson River?
Certainly meant as a joke, but remember, for joke to be funny it has to have a grain of truth to it.
Found it.
http://www.mappingthenation.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Rumsey-Steinberg-New-Yorker-1976.jpg
Seeing my native New Jersey reduced to a miserable strip makes me want to do THIS...
https://www.njpalisades.org/images/fortleeCannon.jpg
OOO-RAH! And don't think that 32-pounder wouldn't hit the city either!
Why bother. It won't be too much longer.
And people say global warming leading to a rise in sea level's a bad thing...
Flintlock76Ever see that "New Yorker" magazine cover (made into a famous poster)
Well, how about this?
The Milwaukee Road is my #1 pick for the 'All American Railroad' so I agree entirely with the depiction.
Last time I was there I purchased a purple suede SHIRT! It was the heaviest shirt I ever owned and you could not wear it on a hot day, but let me tell ya, I looked smashing. Very special occasions only! Made in Milwaukee.
Overmod Flintlock76 Ever see that "New Yorker" magazine cover (made into a famous poster) ... Well, how about this?
Flintlock76 Ever see that "New Yorker" magazine cover (made into a famous poster)
That's cool, I don't mind a city from Flyover Country crowing a bit, especially considering all the great cheese and beer that comes out of Milwaukee!
Holy ground as well, considering David. P. Morgan used to work there!
Of course, a great deal of the cleverness goes out of Steinberg's cover when you know where it came from (Chicago Tribune, 1922)
Much more amusing (to this native New Yorker, at least) was the 1936 guide from Columbia Press with the slightly more complete map of the United States according to we:
Well, at least that 1936 map gives New Jersey slightly better representation.
I won't load up that 32 pounder. This time.
Wayne, does still a good bit of the fresh food still come from the Garden State?
For the benefit of those who are not up on their cannonology, the "32 pounder" refers to the weight of the ball. The cannon itself weighs a good bit more.
Can't let 24 hours go by with not a single peep on Classic so here's a couple of interesting pics for sure.
Now then, the above certainly looks like a terribly inefficient way to ice a reefer... There are 4 hatches after all on 2 sides! This could take some time but I'm sure someone will explain what a good idea this really is.
Here is something you will never ever witness again. Steam tractors, from the factory, being unloaded from a flat car spotted on a siding at the station. Must have been a day of excitement and anticipation.
Deggesty Wayne, does still a good bit of the fresh food still come from the Garden State? For the benefit of those who are not up on their cannonology, the "32 pounder" refers to the weight of the ball. The cannon itself weighs a good bit more.
Quite a bit does Johnny, but New Jersey isn't the agricultural powerhouse it was decades ago. A lot of farms have disappeared under developments. Can't blame them really, if I was "Farmer Jones" and a developer came along and offered me several millions for the "ol' spread" I'd have a hard time saying no myself.
Oh, that 32 pounder? With a standard eight pound powder charge and a five degree elevation on the tube the range would be 1.1 miles. No problem shooting over the Hudson and "waking up" Manhattan!
Wayne
Miningman Can't let 24 hours go by with not a single peep on Classic so here's a couple of interesting pics for sure. Now then, the above certainly looks like a terribly inefficient way to ice a reefer... There are 4 hatches after all on 2 sides! This could take some time but I'm sure someone will explain what a good idea this really is. Here is something you will never ever witness again. Steam tractors, from the factory, being unloaded from a flat car spotted on a siding at the station. Must have been a day of excitement and anticipation.
Any of you folks ever see steam tractors in operation? Oh-so-cool! Really, they're miniature steam locomotives that don't need tracks, and the care and feeding of a steam tractor is exactly the same as for a steam locomotive.
I'd just love to have one to ride around the block in!
Also, some of what look like steam tractors weren't tractors at all, but portable steam engines that were pulled by horses to wherever the work was.
We have a steam engine and old tractor association nearby. Those steam tractors ran on a variety of fuels includung corn cobs. They also have a 0-4-0 and a loop of track, and stationary steam engines.
A lot of the early steam tractors functioned as portable power plants. Able to move out into the field or bush and then run other machinery, while burning the byproducts of whatever process they were running.
Miningman Now then, the above certainly looks like a terribly inefficient way to ice a reefer... There are 4 hatches after all on 2 sides! This could take some time but I'm sure someone will explain what a good idea this really is.
rcdrye Miningman Now then, the above certainly looks like a terribly inefficient way to ice a reefer... There are 4 hatches after all on 2 sides! This could take some time but I'm sure someone will explain what a good idea this really is. Not too bad if you don't have space for an ice dock. The ice box goes on the forklift tongs (so you can use the forklift to load other things), something that would give a modern safety engineer the heeby-jeebies...
Not too bad if you don't have space for an ice dock. The ice box goes on the forklift tongs (so you can use the forklift to load other things), something that would give a modern safety engineer the heeby-jeebies...
When I was working, I had many occasions to operate a forklift--and my company required that all lift operators have certified instruction in the use of such. Once, I made use of newbies in their introductory class to move pallets of empty drums about (unstack and restack) as I was preparing them to be returned to the vendor for reuse.
Believe it or not, I used to drive one every day! I think my instruction went something like "you pull this lever and it goes down, you push it up and it goes up and if the back wheels come off the ground the load is too heavy! That was the way it was at the home improvement store I worked at in the 90's.
By the way, probably the most unusual railroad item I have in my collection is a pallet branded for DB.
Penny Trains Believe it or not, I used to drive one every day! I think my instruction went something like "you pull this lever and it goes down, you push it up and it goes up and if the back wheels come off the ground the load is too heavy! That was the way it was at the home improvement store I worked at in the 90's.
This comes to mind. "Pull the lever Becky!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_L5Z5z5w4s
Penny Trains Believe it or not, I used to drive one every day! I think my instruction went something like "you pull this lever and it goes down, you push it up and it goes up and if the back wheels come off the ground the load is too heavy! That was the way it was at the home improvement store I worked at in the 90's. By the way, probably the most unusual railroad item I have in my collection is a pallet branded for DB.
1). Buffalo's Central Terminal on a moonlit night. It is an artists rendition. On the far left is a Pennsy K4. Is this right? Did PRR use this station? On the far right is what I suppose is a PA, but it looks a bit too pointy.
2) Another artist rendition. I just like it. It's the opposite of all those glitzy streamliners. Soo Line with a local run somewhere out there on the prairie. I can well remember trains like this... the CPR ran many that were almost a carbon copy of this scene and with their control of the Soo Line you can see the influence. They were all gone by 1959. The CNR train I took to Port Dover with my grandma each summer was just like this but it would be green cars and a Mogul up front.
3) Ok no more paintings. How about a nifty action shot broadsides of a Pennsy Q2. Short lived magnificient machines.
4) We have been discussing the NYO&W recently so here's a pic postcard of their station in Ellenville along the beautiful rustic and rural lines.
Also fast forward to today and an old long ago closed Anthracite mine that apparently is still standing in Ellenville.
Miningman 1). Buffalo's Central Terminal on a moonlit night. It is an artists rendition. On the far left is a Pennsy K4. Is this right? Did PRR use this station? On the far right is what I suppose is a PA, but it looks a bit too pointy.
Always love to see those Art Deco skyscrapers lit up the building from the setback. PRR had trains used the Station, one of them is recorded in this video:
According to this file, some PRR trains ran between Buffalo and other major cities, but I am not sure if all of them stoped in the Buffalo Terminal:
http://www.prrths.com/newprr_files/Hagley/PRR%20NAMED%20TRAINS.pdf
Baltimore Day Express, Buffalo Day Express, Northern Express, Pittsburgh Night Express, Southern Express, etc., : )
Miningman 3) Ok no more paintings. How about a nifty action shot broadsides of a Pennsy Q2. Short lived magnificient machines.
And they were entirely built by PRR's Altoona shops, all by PRR! The concent of Duplex came from Baldwin but these magnificent steam engines had nothing to do with Baldwin.
MiningmanAlso fast forward to today and an old long ago closed Anthracite mine that apparently is still standing in Ellenville.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReYbrlG4BAU
Well, it's truly a wasted day if you don't learn something new!
When I saw the painting of that K4 at Buffalo Union Terminal I thought "No way! Absolutely not! That's New York Central territory! The NYC probably had artillery postitioned around the Terminal with special 'anti-Pennsy' shells loaded! That painting's got to be an example of artistic license!"
And then Mr. Jones posted the video! Well, what do you know? They DID go there! I guess rivalry is one thing, but "Business is business!"
Anyone notice that Baldwin "Babyface" at the beginning of the video?
Love that painting of the Soo line local in the snow-covered landscape! Perfect Christmas card stuff!
And did you notive that funky ol' Camelback at the O&W station?
By the way, that Ellenville station is still standing, though heavily remodeled.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/7652577@N05/31612135350
Not to nit-pick, but if that ramshackle old building is in Ellenville it can't be an old coal mine. The O&W's coal came from the Scranton area. It might be an old coal retailers facility where the coal was sold to local customers.
No coal mining in Ulster County NY, but there WAS mineral mining, and I'm sure Vince will find this interesting.
https://thediggings.com/usa/new-york/ulster-ny111/mines
So maybe that old building is from a mine after all?
Buffalo Central was supposed to be "Union Station" for Buffalo, but in the end only PRR was a tenant. Day and night trains to Harrisburg with through cars to Philadelphia and Washington, with advertised connections at Buffalo to MC-TH&B-CP trains to Toronto. Also local service to Oil City PA. By 1948 there was a discharge-only platform at Lord St. close to downtown, but no other Buffalo stations.
Those were Centipedes at the beginning of the video. Still in 5 stripe paint scheme. Maybe shortly after being bumped off the Broadway but still fairly new. Did not know they went into Buffalo service.
Does anything match the complete fall of passenger service as Buffalo Central Terminal? From a nightly miracle of amazing amount of switching cars of numerous named trains to utter devastation and nothingness in short order. Perhaps the 'other end' of the CASO, Michigan Central Station in Detroit.
I still find it hard to believe.
Flintlock/Wayne-- Well it's a Mine of some sort. Perhaps Zinc. I went with the photo caption yet again. Perhaps it was an Anthracite distrubuter/dealer but it has the characteristics of a Mine.
Glad the Ellenville station remains.. it looks like it's well kept, but it has lost all its charm as a railroad station. That red door and red star makes me think it's a base for Chinese hackers!
Old pictures in and around the town of Ellenville sure make it look like a very charming and desirable place to live.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=loc.ark:/13960/t22b9cd0r;seq=63;size=125;rotation=90 https://babel.hathitruhttps://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=coo.31924076321771;seq=664;size=200;rotation=0 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924076321771&view=1up&seq=664&size=125 st.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t22b9cd0r&view=2up&seq=62
Oh! I love that painting!
Yeah I understand Penny.
What I would give for one night out on the platforms at Buffalo Central Terminal, say 1947-48 or so between 11pm and 4 am. What a show.
I was so close too.. geographically and time wise on the scale of things.
Is there anything Mike can't find?
He's beyond "needle in a haystack," I think Mike could find a needle in a cornfield!
1947 sounds good Vince, but how'd you like to be on the platform in 1937 when these bad boys "...passed in the night?"
https://www.albanyinstitute.org/details/items/eastward-westward.html
Penny Trains Oh! I love that painting!
Becky, I've done some furious research, and that painting's called "Midnight in Buffalo," and it was done by artist Larry Fisher.
I've checked several sources and the prints all seem to be sold out. The only thing I could find was a 550 piece puzzle from mr.train.com.
https://mrtrain.com/product/new-york-central-prr-midnight-in-buffalo
Someone's going to need a hell of a lot more patience than I've got to do a 550 piece puzzle! But the price seems to be right.
Meanwhile about 100 miles away.
Set as my new wallpaper.
Flintlock pointed out the Camelback at the O&W station in Ellensville,NY.
.... maybe it's one of these gals.
Those could "Old and Weary" Camelbacks, the O&W was an early rider on the Camelback bandwagon, but the photos are just too indistinct to tell.
The caboose behind the Camel in the second photo looks like it's got an O&W herald on it, but to my knowledge the O&W cabooses didn't get the herald until the 1930's, that photo looks much earlier.
By the way speaking of O&W Camels, did I show everyone my latest aquisition?
http://www.lionel.com/products/new-york-ontario-western-conventional-4-6-0-camelback-253-6-28755/
Ah, the kitty. (Neeeyow! )
Neeeyow?
Oh, NOW I get it!
NeeeYOW! NYO&W.
Took me almost 24 hours. I'm a little slow sometimes.
Do yourselves a favor gang, don't get old!
Flintlock76Took me almost 24 hours. I'm a little slow sometimes.
Don't feel bad. I never got it. (And I can't pretend I didn't try...)
1) Well one last look at pleasant Ellenville on the NYeeeeOW.
2). Multiple personalities. It states Penn Central on the sides. It's marked ConRail on the nose. It has a patch amidships that identifies MKT. Your choice I suppose. It was a tumultuous time.
3). Now if I was the CEO of Southern Pacific and saw this I would gather my sales force and tell them they have 60 days to find enough new business to put all of these locomotives to work.
4) Speaking of Southern Pacific, check out this beast. Not all their articulates were Cab Forwards.
#4 is a Lima built AC-9, originally set up as a coal burner for the line that was originally the El Paso & Northeastern, which connected El Paso with the Rock Island. Not much in the way of tunnels or snow sheds on the line, so no need for a cab forward.
Miningman3). Now if I was the CEO of Southern Pacific and saw this I would gather my sales force and tell them they have 60 days to find enough new business to put all of these locomotives to work.
#3 is the SP's advanced adoption of PSR and the storing excess power.
Even before PSR, railroads would store power that was excess to their current needs. With my career with CSX, at times there would be hundreds of units stored because of short term business fluctuations in business. When business would rebound there would be no units stored.
BaltACD#3 is the SP's advanced adoption of PSR and the storing excess power.
Someone with more SP knowledge and better eyesight may confirm this, but I see mostly four-axle and switchers in there -- could reflect preference changing as the railroad went to SD40/45s and the like, and away from Geeps for the mainline power.
1). Kind of a creepy/spooky way to present a map of your railroad, I guess Cherubs were popular then but it would perhaps illicit howls of indignation today?
2) Speaking of howls of indignation how would this go over today for the Auto Train. I remember the old Colonel 'what's his name' over at the 'other Railroad publication' had dozens of these shots. I think they are quite nice actually.
3) Been talking about the now gone Electroliner over on trains. Here's a nice shot in the thick of the city with a matching crossing tower.
4) Anyone besides me miss the Turbo Train? Here's a lengthy consist departing Ottawa. Worked ok once they got all the bugs out.
5) A C&O Ingalls? Of course not, only one ever built and it was for the GM&O. Too bad, it seemed destined for success and developed a reputation as being very 'tough'. Ingalls jumped in the market at the right time too, immediately after the war. Apparently supplier problems made production difficult for Ingalls. Nice job on the photo shop, almost for sure that's what it would look like.
Miningman Worked ok once they got all the bugs out.
Worked ok once they got all the bugs out.
I had only one trip on a Turbotrain, Toronto to Montreal in September 1977.
I was still trying to find my seat as the train departed. There had been a warning about not standing as the train passed through the station throat, and it was quite rough.
Later I found my way to dome seats in the leading power car and was having a reasonable time (the partition to the cab was glass, so you had a good view forward.) Apparently there was a fire alarm from one of the forward turbines. The first thing that happened was the conductor appeared and collected all the upholstery, conveniently held in place by Velcro and dumped it all in the vestbule behind the dome.
There was no actual sign of fire. We had stopped close to Dorval Airport and one of their fire tenders had turned up on an adjacent road.
The following Rapido, hauled by a set of FPA/FPB-4s pulled alongside and we were transferred across via the ballast.
So I'm not sure they got all the bugs...
Only 3% of them burned up?
Now on the photos...
Photo 2. Dang, I do miss the women's fashions from the 70's, some were quite fetching.
Photo 3. Every time I see an "Eletroliner" I get the craving for an "Electro-Burger," but there's none to be had!
(Sigh)-- another reason to feel sad over Christmas, there will never be another Electroburger.
The Turbo that burned was covered under a tarp for years in a yard. That 97% availability figure is a bunch of hooey. I suppose I could say I've had 100% availability since being born minus the 11 minutes I was actually dead. Still it's a pretty high number.
As to the Auto Train Hostess... it's the shorts and those high socks. You know out in field exploration a lot of geologists wear shorts and high socks in the summer but they sure as heck don't look like that. Hairy legs don't work with the look and the gals aren't dumb enough to try it.
Picture 1: Spooky indeed. If you search the photo on Google, a lot of spooky stuff appears. If the artist shown the rail map on her long dress or the jewel on her neck, it would have been less creepy.
Picture 2: : )
Picture 3: The windy city, used to be the Capital of Railroading of the World, lost tons of great steel kings and different types of interesting public transportation vehicles in the past 80 years. Electroliner was only one of them. The livery of it still looked stylish and up to date, let alone the content like the Tavern Lounge inside this streamliner. Dining facilities have been replaced by Automat Food "Service" Cars, something like the canteen on the Starships in the movie.
Picture 4: Never have a chance to travel on the Turbo Train. They were the answer to any higher speed railroad vehicle outside North America.
Picture 5: The C&O livery fits the Ingalls 4-S very well. Only one was built but managed to serve for 20 years, impressive!
Thank you Miningman for keep adding coal to the choo choo train~!
Well, there IS that Electroliner under restoration at the (I think) Illinois Railroad Museum, and IF they get the grill car goin' again we MAY see the return of the Electro-Burger! One can only hope...
I think only then will the restoration be 100% complete.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Photo 1. Jeez, that thing looks beyond creepy, it's downright funereal! Like something out of a Victorian gothic novel, like Bram Stoker's "Dracula."
Flintlock76Well, there IS that Electroliner under restoration at the (I think) Illinois Railroad Museum, and IF they get the grill car goin' again we MAY see the return of the Electro-Burger!
My understanding was that IRM finished the restoration (quite some time ago!) and that the Electro-Burger galley is still seats, as rebuilt. It is really too small to serve as much of an actual food kitchen for a preservation museum where all the passengers want a bite during the short demo ride. That doesn't change the beauty of the restoration, or the thrill of having an actual running Electroliner in all its originally-shadow-lined glory.
Now, part of the rebuilding of the other Electroliner for the Memphis airport line explicitly did include not only restoration of the galley, but its operation in coordination with Elliott's downtown. And the replacement cars would have had some food service too, since they would have shared the downtown loop.
Pity it got blown up into a $4 billion social-welfare boondoggle, isn't it?
Thank you Jones..it is fun shovelling the coal and keeping the Forum lively!
Firelock and Overmod-- don't think we can get the real deal and very famous Electroburger... food just is not the same , maybe come close but all the little nuisances have vanished.
Care to expand a bit on that Memphis situation?
Yeah Vince, if they got the restored Electroliner's grill going it probably wouldn't be the same blend of burger meat, or the the same grill grease, or the same bun, well, you get it.
But it would be cool if they tried!
As Jimmy Stewart said in "Shenandoah..."
"We don't know if we don't try, and if we don't try we don't do, and if we don't do, then why are we here on this earth?"
Yeah, they'd take out the transfats, the gluten, the grease and everything else that made food taste like you WANT to eat it.
A lot of the processing has changed, definitely substitution of less costly and, in this case I will use the word 'cheaper', ingredients in just about all of the aspects of putting this thing together. Of course the .1% can still get the real deal but not us plebs. They say ' the consumers will never know the difference' but that's an outright fable.
Penny Trains Yeah, they'd take out the transfats, the gluten, the grease and everything else that made food taste like you WANT to eat it.
Not at the places I go to!
My standard question, "Is it good for you?"
"Yes! Of course!"
"Then I don't want it." Cracks 'em up all the time!
Miningman A lot of the processing has changed, definitely substitution of less costly and, in this case I will use the word 'cheaper', ingredients in just about all of the aspects of putting this thing together. Of course the .1% can still get the real deal but not us plebs. They say ' the consumers will never know the difference' but that's an outright fable.
They also say 'the consumers will still eat them even though they are made of trash...because they have no other choice (giggles), all these brands are under the same parent company'. People have been slowly compromised on inferior, sub-substandard products from the country of the sweatshop, including model train stuff, food, clothes, etc., on the other hand, many folks are so getting used to the fast-food culture, IKEAization (Well they do have some good stuff). Bad money drives out good, it is getting old... Please don't order any replacement screw that was made in the country of the sweatshop, or the machine will be screwed by the broken screws that are as fragile as Pig iron. (I bet they use the same level of trash on their newly built "aircraft carrier" aka another vintage floating target)
https://www.cruiselinehistory.com/the-electroliner-90-miles-per-hour-from-milwaukee-to-chicago/
From the same website. The seat looked even more comfortable than the 1939 PRR Trail Blazer, despite the armrest wasn't wrapped by velvet!
I always loved the look of the front end of the Electroliner, it reminds me of Gort the Robot from "The Day The Earth Stood Still," the GOOD one, from 1951.
Check him out...
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/n3Pd4
... don't think we can get the real deal and very famous Electroburger... food just is same , maybe come close but all the little [nuances] have vanished.
Actually this is one area where the world has blossomed, compellingly, over the years and especially in the last few. Both the cuts of beef needed to produce the 'best' beef and the correct mix of them to produce the best burger are well-understood and reasonably documented. I'm sure enough historical commissary information exists to replicate the make of the patties used ... but I'd also bet it was commodity burger meat for the '40s, and much of the taste was in the experience -- much like my beloved 'Am and cheese' sandwich with double the mustard and tall cup full of pebbled ice to decant my red can of Coke, drunk in a parlor chair at 80mph going through Elizabeth on a southbound Clocker...
But we have MUCH better meat, and buns, and condiments. Look at the Allen Brothers ad you've probably already been pushed by Kalmbach -- there's a growing trend towards wagyu as a burger meat, and it's a form of heaven.
Meanwhile, the grill is just the well-known iron slab heated from below by elements driven by traction power. No complex tinkering needed to make one (I have two much larger suitable slabs in storage, salvaged from Waffle House renovations with permission) and of course the care and feeding of the things and the paraphernalia (stones and screens and scrapers) to care for them is not only a conserved skill but a historically traceable one.
Perhaps the best part is that we can build a better burger than what the North Shore provided, and establish a new Electroburger tradition for new generations rediscovering the fascination.
Memphis built a 'Main Street Trolley' at great cost, then a riverfront loop involving one of the two tracks of the old IC line to Central Station and a branch extension to the medical center on Cleveland. Now, there is a NS freight branch that goes right under that extension, easily reachable (by traction) via a couple of switches and a ramp... as I recall it is actually one of the first railroads in Tennessee, and it points right toward the airport with grade separation for a substantial part of the way. This was a rational basis for high-speed transit from downtown, via satellite parking, to a sensible transfer station for airport shuttles if not actual terminal stops.
Now to operate this we needed a high speed train suitable for negotiating sharp curves. The choice was obvious even before the 'opportunity' of running the loop at lunchtime with Elliott's-catered burgers finished on the famous grill and plunge-cooked as an alternative. I went to Rockhill, got permission from the board there, got estimates for moving (it helped of course that it had been done before, to get it TO Rockhill which is not exactly easily accessible by standard-gauge rail) and sat back to await the politics.
Which ran off the rails on the innocuous, and not unimportant, priority of who would be served by a trolley to the airport -- we've had this discussion with the diesel line out to Pearson. Airport workers with no cars need mass transit that comes reasonably near them. To shorten a long and expensive story ... the final alternative chosen would have gone down a couple of well-trafficked streets with truly heroic grade-separation, taken 45 minutes and a fair amount of stopping and starting to wend its way to... well, somewhere close enough to shuttle the employees around to where passengers can't go ... security not permitting trolleys up to the terminals without inspection, ya know, and ... wait for it because they presented it with a straight face and so we should strive to listen to it ... been ours for a mere $4.2 billion.
The 'Liberty Liner' still resides safely in Pennsylvania, still optioned for a fair price, with opportunity still knocking.
Well thank you for the Memphis explanation. 4.2 Billion? Like 4 thousand millions and a fifth of another one? Geez. For that kind of moolah it should come with a newly built NYC streamlined Hudson, a T1 and 7 full consists of faithfully recreated 20th Century fame.
As to the food situation... you're right and I'm right. If I could take you in my time machine to, let's say, 1964, and enjoy a pizza at PeeWees in Burlington, Ontario you would definitely say " what the hell happened". I don't even think you can get Pepperoni like that anywhere any longer. All of those ingredients have been 'cheapened' and substituted.
Try getting fish and chips that serve Halibut, instead of Haddock or Pollack or some pressed 'fish' combo thing.
Meanwhile:
1) This is out where SD70DUDE lives.
The following info was written along with the picture in 2009. Is this still true ?
Not only is it the world’s longest and highest railway trestle, but it may be the toughest, too. There are no restrictions on the length or weight of the mile-long freight trains that roll across the Lethbridge Viaduct a dozen times a day, even though the bridge was built 1907-09.
2). For some strange reason it's not all that often we see the C&EI in colour. I'm not even sure some railfans know what their colour scheme was.
3) Rock Island fan trip using WWII troop carriers. You know the new look 'Rock' wasn't a bad image at all. At least they tried, a valiant but vain effort.
In the photo they have stopped for lunch at Weatherford, Oklahoma.
4) Overhead view of Buffalo Central Terminal. Looking kind of rough, it's past glory is gone.
5) Milwaukee Bi-Polar. Amazing how big that really was.
MiningmanNot only is it the world’s longest and highest railway trestle,
A google search shows there is a railway bridge in China more than 100 miles long.
That description was written in 2009, so it might not be correct anymore. Wow a hundred miles!
I have gone back and questioned the information with an edit.
I also question the claim about no restrictions. Is that still true?
In the Chicago view, the sleeping car just behind the C&EI locomotives is a Pullman built Duplex Roomette car. Good photos of these are rare. In Some Classic Trains, Dubin illustrates a conventional roomette car, apparently rebuilt from one of these around 1956, since the two level arrangement was not popular. These should not be confused with the Budd-built Slumbercoaches which looked generally similar. There is an HO model (not particularly good) sold by IHC that I think represents these cars. Note the gap in the fluting above the windows, where the words "Santa Fe" jostle with the upper level windows for space....
I assume the walkway from the Buffalo station to the platforms was removed to provide double stack clearance on the remaining main line tracks.
There is a reasonably good book by Alex Johnston that describes construction of the Lethbridge Viaduct. The basic design is by the guy who designed the Spiral Tunnel arrangement, and the consulting engineer was one of the designers of the Starue of Liberty framing, and a chief critic of the first Quebec Bridge fiasco.
Worth reading (and seeing pictures of!) the erection-traveler setup, and compare this with the construction of the Kinzua viaduct. You may better understand the multiple-level platform arrangement to construct the bents if you appreciate the considerable winds this location has. Compare this with the equipment designed only about a quarter-century earlier to speed construction of elevated railroads in New York.
I cannot find a Cooper rating for this bridge but I doubt there is any practical restriction for diesels that would pose a critical restriction, or a reason to restrict speed for structural more than crosswind-related reasons.
The Santa Fe's twelve "Indian" plan 4100B 24 duplex roomette sleepers were initially used on the "Chief" and secondary trains for overnight runs such as between Chicago and Kansas City. Built in 1947, they never really found a niche in Santa Fe's system. All twelve were rebuilt in 1964 into 11 Double Bedroom cars, keeping their names. Some of the work may have been done by Santa Fe at Topeka - unusual for Pullman-operated equipment, giving them a new plan number 6007A. Assigned to the Super Chief, eleven of them ended up in the Amtrak fleet. Not among the fleet converted to HEP, they became surplus when the Superliners arrived. Some of them ended up with Ringling Brothers.
Pullman's own Duplex Roomette I (later "L.S. Hungerford", NdeM "Paricutin") and CN's "I" series built by CCF make up all of the rest.
The near end of the Buffalo Central Terminal concourse was removed to make room for trilevel auto racks, but the opening works just fine for double-stacks.
Ah, yes, "Indian Canoe." My wife and children slept in that car one night as we went from Albuquerque to Chicago in 1973. It wasn't crowded at all.
Miningman3) Rock Island fan trip using WWII troop carriers. You know the new look 'Rock' wasn't a bad image at all.
That pic puts me in the mind of something other than a fan trip. It looks more like it was headed for THE rock with inmates rather than railfans. Not quite the fan trip consist we've come to expect! Still, it would have been very interresting to ride in those cars!
Penny-- You got a point there. Maybe they missed out on a business opportunity. You've heard of the 'walk of shame' or the 'perp walk', well this could be the 'Train of travesties' and the 'perp express'.
Anyway in the photo they stopped for burgers and sandwichs providing a good photo opportunity.
M636C--- Good eye! The fluting along the top looks ridiculous. What a faux pas that was. Cringeworthy.
Also I cannot even imagine the utter collapse of such an important and magical crossroads for switching, servicing and transfer of through passenger trains and yet collapse in did. It degraded into contempt. Could you imagine explaining that to someone in 1948, then to another generation in 2008. I think you would come across as the court jester in medieval times. To sever the walkway to the platforms is way beyond contempt. Ludicrous. Yet here we are.
Both Buffalo and Detroit have changed in the last 50 years.
Thank you NDG. Had no idea Lethbridge had Streetcars. Quite a surprise.
More pics from the Rock Island fan trip : these from Mike
Quickly from memory:
Lethbridge Viaduct is the "highest-longest" bridge of that type in the world. There are higher bridges or longer bridges. I never knew who figured that stuff out.
40 feet more than a mile long and 315 feet high. Dead straight so no permanent slow order.
Just west of former Lethbridge Station. WB passenger trains would lift from the station and when the tail end cleared the bridge 60 MPH was showing on the speedometer.
It has been said train crew men would spend their entire careers going over that bridge and not actually look down.
IMHO there are no good pictures of the bridge taken from the ground, as it is simply too big. When TRAINS used to run their photo contests, one fellow entered a picture taken from a helicopter. That is really the only way to show a train on the bridge and do it justice.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Miningman 1) This is out where SD70DUDE lives. The following info was written along with the picture in 2009. Is this still true ? Not only is it the world’s longest and highest railway trestle, but it may be the toughest, too. There are no restrictions on the length or weight of the mile-long freight trains that roll across the Lethbridge Viaduct a dozen times a day, even though the bridge was built 1907-09.
Right Province, but multiple other forum members are closer than I by hundreds of kilometres (Alberta's a really big place). It would actually be faster for me to drive to Saskatoon than to Lethbridge.
The info looks correct to me, those early 1900s-vintage steel railway bridges are quite overbuilt, able to handle loads far in excess of what existed when they were built.
Great stories from NDG and Bruce.
NDG FWIW. CP 4105 heading East to Lethbridge on Viaduct. https://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=392814 CP 4105 had S/G and Water Tank, Filler in Skirt, until Scrapped. https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1900/44197657461_d2ff8302d2_b.jpg Push Button on Throttle end, when depressed, allowed Handle to be moved one more Notch to ' Shut Down ' Position. At Base Pier 8 from East End, downstream side, a 39 foot rail protrudes from ground. Apparently it was dropped during Construction and lanced into ground. Watch out for Rattlesnakes and Cactus!!. Time 1:40. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9wlS8SrZ3Y Mine Headframe background in video, here, centre. Viaduct to right. https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.6992683,-112.8762362,1232m/data=!3m1!1e3 House w Snake, Here. https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.7008817,-112.8907809,524m/data=!3m1!1e3 Mine Headframe Snake Video. https://www.galtmuseum.com/articles/2012/02/55-years-since-galt-8-closed.html Lethbridge Streetcar Carbody. Galt Museum. https://www.galtmuseum.com/articles/the-end-of-the-line Thank You. Both Buffalo and Detroit have changed in the last 50 years.
It is very easy to forget that Canada has deserts. And venomous snakes!
EMD units with the barrel control stand had the same kind of throttle handle. On modern units you pull out on the handle and then you are able to push it past idle to the shutdown position. Doing so will shut down all the engines in a consist if the jumper cables are connected.
Well I meant that for our US cousins. You're a lot closer than Memphis or New Orleans or the Big Apple.
Heres a bonus picture for you.
Also consider that El Paso is closer to San Diego than it is to Houston.
Miningman Well I meant that for our US cousins. You're a lot closer than Memphis or New Orleans or the Big Apple. Heres a bonus picture for you.
I've been thinking a lot about this photo, which I have not seen before, and in the absence of other information I believe it was taken on the curve at the east end of our current Museum trackage, sometime after 1979 based on the fact that the engine is facing east. The other equipment appears to be one of our outfit cars and CN combine 7379. We have never had a wye or turntable, and 73 initially faced west when our equipment was moved to the site in 1976, and the only opportunity for her to be turned would have been when she was used in the Northern Alberta Railway's 50th anniversary train during the summer of 1979.
73 was not steamed while on that train due to boiler problems that have yet to be repaired. Sometime after returning to the Museum 73 was test fired in an attempt to diagnose the boiler problems. During that test something (probably a tube) inside the firebox or boiler burst, and it is very lucky that no one in the cab was seriously injured.
So, this photo may actually be from the last day that 73 was hot, if those clouds in the photo are indeed steam and not just smudges.
CSSHEGEWISCHAlso consider that El Paso is closer to San Diego than it is to Houston.
And if I remember correctly, El Paso is further away than Chicago is to Houston...
SD70DUDE--- The photo says Cromdale Nov 11,1967 but the file contains errors.
I sent you an 2 email's with a copy and links.
Yes, I see that now.
http://www.apraarchives.net/collection/index.php/Detail/objects/9489#
The date is probably correct, and that photo was taken at Cromdale, judging from the other stuff I can see in the background in the higher resolution image.
73 was saved from scrap in 1964 and first steamed in 1967. So instead of my earlier speculation that this was her last time being steamed, it might be the first time after being preserved.
Here's another one for the Dude and hopefully everyone else. A picture anyone can find magical in its own way. The Canadian Northern 111 years ago, in Zealandia, Saskatchewan. 4 large grain elevators visible and rows of box cars. Not sure what the loco is but maybe a 4-4-0 or a Mogul.
Wouldn't it be something to be trackside and watch the grain rush happen back then.
Even the name Zealandia seems a bit magical.
Population in 2016...80 souls
Notable: Aldon Wilkie, from Zealandia, was a Major League Pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Today:
Main Street
Tough, tough railroading on grain spotters back then. Work every little town for 100+ miles, usually spotting multiple elevators or spurs at each one. Lots of walking over the top in terrible weather, darkness or both, and all the handbrakes are stemwinders. Only a small oil lantern to see by, and woe betide the Brakeman who spotted the cars on the wrong side of the elevator. The engine would have to be watered more than once enroute, and possibly coaled as well if the train was heavy.
Could take 12+ hours to make the run. On 60 lb rail atop untreated ties and no ballast worth speaking of, this being the Canadian Northern, a true pioneer road that spared every possible expense.
Amazing the transformation that has taken place in 30 years, the Canadian prairie has gone from a wild plain full of Bison, Elk, Wolves and Grizzly Bears, to neat grids of farmland as far as the eye can see. The only Natives left are now on reserves, and the memories of Riel's Rebellion (the last war fought on Canadian soil) are still fresh.
But it would be magical indeed to step back in time for a day, to see our modern world rising from the old. Savour the smell of prairie coal smoke (watch out for all the cinders!) and watch that pioneer engine struggle to lift its train. Maybe it's a mixed, with a combine and caboose on the tail end, and we can hitch a ride to Kindersley.
I hope Eaton's used soft paper in their catalogues....
NDGMinus 30 w the wind has to be experienced.
Not at all far from the American 30-30-30 rule.
If it's 30 below zero (F) and the wind is blowing 30mph, human flesh freezes solid in 30 seconds...
We've pretty much had that 30-30-30 since last Monday and for the foreseeable next 10 days. Worse we received a mountain of snow....just a nasty winter, oops I mean global warming/climate change.
Meanwhile : Comments are very welcome .. hope Overmod has something to say about #1
1) Now that's some claim(s) ... are they stretching it a bit here?
#2 This looks like my kitchen over Christmas but without the help. That's a lot of food. Actually a lot to look at here... 2 fellas from the shop working on the car, the E unit, heavyweights, the famous bridge and the trains marker .. Santa Fe was renown for its fine food offerings.
3) Sticking with Santa Fe... we've been discussing their shortlived but rather infamous brush with articulation. Big beast .. did not pan out very well.
4) You know you can crow about the big stuff, the experimental locos, and the glamour of Pennsy forever but this little fella is pretty darn spiffy. It is reminiscent of a tug-boat to me. Tough old salty.
5) And the race is on. Pride on the outside, heartache on the inside and the winner loses all, which sadly they did.
6) NYO&W running Camelbacks back to back. Say that fast 7 times. An interesting train though.
7) If only this baggage car came with an account of its many journeys. At one time it was new and a source of company pride.
8) Not railroad but interesting in a Classic sense. An electro-mechanical scoreboard 1912 for baseball games in Washington, DC.
For #1, all three claims are true. The "Turbomotives" used a power plant style water tube boiler, had dynamic brakes where the resistors were used to heat the boiler and were equipped with M.U. controls.
For #3, the 2-10-10-2's were notorious for steam leaks.N.B. THey starred in an installment of the "Hazards of Helen" serial, with this being covered in the June 1967 Trains.
Interesting photos there, all with a story.
Photo 1. Well, we all know that steam turbine turned out to be a flop, for what reasons I don't know, maybe Overmod can tell us.
Photo 2. Oh yeah, the Santa Fe was renowned for its good eats, all under the supervision of the Fred Harvey organization. It kepts passengers coming back time and time again, until they stopped coming.
Photo 3. Remember what I've said about "If it looks good it'll run good?" One picture's worth a thousand words, that thing looks just plain dumb!
Photo 4. Those little Pennsy 0-4-0's were quite the workhorses! Built for use around industries and warehouse districts with tight confines they more than got the job done. I wouldn't mind having one to play with myself!
Photo 5. I wonder who won that drag race? I'm betting on the T-1!
Photo 6. That's a puzzler. I suspect one of those Camels must be dead-in-tow.
Photo 7. Looks like there's a steam tender in front. I wonder if that's at a museum site? Someone needs to get busy with a can of Rustoleum at any rate.
Photo 8. The Washington Post electro-mechanical scoreboard. Irony of ironys, if what I've read is true 100 years after that photo was taken the only thing keeping the Washington Post's printed edition alive is the sports section. The same goes for a lot of other newspapers.
Firelock/Wayne-- I believe the Rutland baggage car is at Steamtown.
As for the UP steam turbines here's a bit of their story. It seems to indicate they preformed well at the end for the Great Northern. It does seem a bit vague and mysterious why they would be discarded in the middle of a war though.
This is kind of cool though... " It There was one more locomotive superficially near-similar to M-10003-10006 but using an entirely different source of power. For two one-month periods in 1939, UP operated a two-unit, 5,000-horsepower steam turbine-electric locomotive built by General Electric. It was completed in December 1938 and delivered to UP at Omaha, Neb., on April 3, 1939. Union Pacific historians William Kratville and Harold Ranks described the promise of the pair, writing that the steam turbines "were lauded as replacement to steam—successor of diesels."
completed in December 1938 and delivered to UP at Omaha, Neb., on April 3, 1939. Union Pacific historians William Kratville and Harold Ranks described the promise of the pair, writing that the steam turbines "were lauded as Numbered UP 1 and 2, the two steam turbine units each generated 2,500 horsepower, and burned oil to produce the steam for the units' turbines. Built by GE under contract to Union Pacific, they were the first railway turbine locomotives built in North America. They also represented GE's only attempt at steam-powered locomotives. The two locomotives were under construction during most of two years, with a final built date of December 1938, although a photograph dated December 24, 1937, shows them about 95 percent completed. Both units were tested extensively on GE's test track at its Erie (Pa.) plant until final road testing, which took place on New York Central from January through March 1939.
The two locomotives worked their way to Council Bluffs, Iowa, over NYC and Chicago & North Western, and as noted, were delivered to UP on April 3, 1939. During April, they operated in several test and publicity trains between Cheyenne and Laramie, Wyo., between Cheyenne and Denver, and from Cheyenne to Salt Lake City and Los Angeles. They were in Los Angeles for the grand opening of the new Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal. They returned to Omaha and were displayed near that city's downtown on April 27, 28, and 29, 1939, during the world premiere of Cecil B. DeMille's epic film "Union Pacific" on April 28. During the first two weeks of May 1939, they completed a whirlwind movie promotion tour of the eastern states for Paramount Studios, including an exhibition for President Franklin D. Roosevelt. They returned to UP and made several trips as separate units on passenger trains between Omaha and Denver. In early June, they were reunited and used to take the Paramount movie special back to Los Angeles, after which they returned to Omaha.
Despite all of that high-profile activity, the tests had shown that the steam turbine concept was not quite ready for railroad service, due mostly to the units' low reliability and increased maintenance. Several minor failures had occurred, and at least one major road failure, in which a 2800-class Pacific pulled the pair and their train from Colorado into Omaha. Simply put, the two units were unsuccessful during UP's tests in long-haul service and never entered regular revenue service.
The locomotives were returned to General Electric on June 17, 1939, via Chicago. Representatives from both UP and GE continued to work at improving the units' reliability, with cold-weather tests taking place on New York Central. A February 1941 report by a UP staff engineer was positive in its contents, but by the end of 1941, it was obvious to UP that the design was not what it wanted. On December 18, 1941, UP President William Jeffers notified GE that the railroad had no further interest in the project. After UP pulled out of the project, the units were repainted dark gray and renumbered to GE 1 and 2. During 1943, they were leased to Great Northern Railway for nearly a year for wartime short-haul freight service in Washington, performing without major failure. By late 1943, they were returned to GE and retired.
Interesting reading Vince! I suppose those units were just a little too "oddball" for railroad management of the time to get any acceptance. And it could be with dieselization coming over the horizon they may have figured "If we're going to burn oil for a fuel, it might as well be in the most efficient way possible."
Just another interesting "might have been."
Added a bit more . Seems they were hopeful and touted this as the successor to Diesels!
The problem is that they were successors to E3s in the way the Niagaras could be competitive with E7s. All that length and complexity for only 2500hp a unit, too. Much the same economics that killed the 6000hp modular Essl Baldwin of about the same era was the real doom of this idea... as would be the case really for any steam/turbine electric.
What put the nail in the operational coffin was the obligate condensing. This was a 1500psi design with an exhaust plenum many times the turbine size and (as with the ACE 3000) any time there was a glitch in the function or the recirculation, there was likely to be Confusion and Delay in the offing. I suspect winter on the GN was far kinder to the shuttered arrangement, in addition to whatever refinements to the machinery were made...
I so wish that the UP Steam Turbine Sisters was a success but unfortunately they were another disappointment of the magic year 1939. The only thing I don't like about them is that they had been designed to operate together "elephant style", nose to tail instead of tail to tail like the Baldwin DR-12-8-1500/2. The brass train model of them is beautiful, especially after some lighting effect enhancement, but the "gigantic" nose of E3s and the UP Steam Turbine Sisters was not for everyone.
The nose is nowhere near as bulbous in line as it appears in some of those photographs, including at least two in the YouTube pastiche that are displaying in 'stretch' aspect ratio to common effect.
The 'streamliner' corrugated siding around the windows is not metal fluting, as on passenger cars: it is vent grilles. As I recall there was a lot of optional venting, much of it made to be blocked off in the wintertime.
You would not run these back-to-back because the condensers would interfere with each other if you did. There was a relatively large swept area back there. My HO scale models have a fun little detail: all the vertical louvers move in sync when you push them with a toothpick!
Great films Mr. Jones, thanks for posting them!
And thanks for the "Why no back-to-back running?" explaination Mod-Man, you saved me the trouble of asking.
Overmod The nose is nowhere near as bulbous in line as it appears in some of those photographs, including at least two in the YouTube pastiche that are displaying in 'stretch' aspect ratio to common effect. The 'streamliner' corrugated siding around the windows is not metal fluting, as on passenger cars: it is vent grilles. As I recall there was a lot of optional venting, much of it made to be blocked off in the wintertime. You would not run these back-to-back because the condensers would interfere with each other if you did. There was a relatively large swept area back there. My HO scale models have a fun little detail: all the vertical louvers move in sync when you push them with a toothpick!
Interesting detail on the real engine and your HO scale model as well! This is the lighting mod on the Overland version:
Hey, I didn't realize the Overland used electroluminescent panels on the nose! I could put them on mine!
Sad that neither engine did the chassis with proper detail. It deserved better than to be painted brown.
Overmod Hey, I didn't realize the Overland used electroluminescent panels on the nose! I could put them on mine! Sad that neither engine did the chassis with proper detail. It deserved better than to be painted brown.
It is modded. There was a video showing a collector modifying the UP steam turbine. The original panels had a tiny light bulb under it. Toleration is inevitable even after you spent several thousand for an HO scale model; there is always at least one mistake, some minor damaged parts, and running problem...
Looking at the early colour film, it appeared to me that the turbines were grey below the yellow and not brown. The first City trains were brown but LA4/5/6 and SF 4/5/6 were grey. Since the Turbines were between these either is possible but it looks grey to me.
Shouldn't the model sound be that of the condenser cooling fans rather than the hiss of steam?
All the discussions I've read indicate the brown running gear. I wholeheartedly believe that gray would have been better even if retaining brown on the car body; I did not like the brown roof, either, and would think it better in the later Harbor Mist.
I don't think any modeler has much of an idea what these things would sound like in operation, and have just assigned likely files to various CVs as they think seems appropriate. There would be flash-boiler noise reasonably predictable from the sound signature of something like a big OK-series Vapor-Carlson steam generator, and probably some blowing or gurgling from condensate ... but little audible steam hissing, even when running at high power but low speed. This raises the question of the sound of train-heat steam generation, which sure didn't come from the distilled water in the turbine circuit...
Plenty of gear noise and various ticks and spangs from the underframes. with age. This might be cribbed from GG1s, with editing of frequencies and power spectra to reflect the differences in motors and final drive.
Most of the noise is indeed going to be condenser and other fan noise, and it will need to be varied in 'swell' as the louver sections modulate open and closed and various winter panels come to be applied behind the grilles.
The electric motor noise would depend on how the motors were mounted in the trucks. My guess is that the chassis is basically a Cincinatti Union Terminal "P Motor" with GE 746 motors, which would be about the right size for the job. A GG1 would have more clicks due to the quill drive and dual motors per axle.
UP already had 5400HP E2s in service at the time the steam turbines showed up. My guess is that the relative ease of maintenance was pretty obvious to UP folks, along with the ability to de-rate the E2s in blocks of 900HP, not 2500.
I think this is right about the motoring - single motor and pinion, but if I remember correctly the motors built in a CUT P-motor are a bit different (and this facilitated their rebuilding from 3000V to 750V when opportunity came; we had a thread on these.)
Suspect UP would still be comparing these to a FEF, "100%" of which would be 'derated' if not working. I think E2s still had those cable hoists on runners so riding maintainers could change out engine components on the fly...
It is possible that the GE turbines were billed as 'low maintenance' especially compared to contemporary reciprocating steam power. They certainly had a better water rate ... even at the worst of times! ... compared to any other Union Pacific steam power.
rcdryeCincinatti Union Terminal "P Motor"
That was another Ohio city, Cleveland
Great discussions.
Someone will know what's happening here. Lehigh Valley with FA-FB-FA, ( think that's a 5 not a 6, but maybe it is 6 then it's a PA) a long string of heavyweights and a switcher on the end. Must be at one of their shops? It's a bit unusual.
#2 Sticking with Lehigh Valley. This is just too great!
#3 A Lehigh Valley hat trick tonight. Nice to know the Central had some competition on on the Honeymoon business!
4) One for the Erie fans. A very proud moment, all is well on the Erie.
#5 Not railroad but Classic .. Sweet Caps are long gone, O'Keefe Ale long gone, suspect the store is long gone as well... and the cart. Corner of Markham and Queen in Toronto. The Streetcars still roam Queen though!
Miningman Great discussions. Someone will know what's happening here. Lehigh Valley with FA-FB-FA, ( think that's a 5 not a 6, but maybe it is 6 then it's a PA) a long string of heavyweights and a switcher on the end. Must be at one of their shops? It's a bit unusual.
I see steam generator vents on all three units.
The lead unit is FPA-2 594, one of two purchased by LV. They also got two FPB-2's. So that photo contains 75% of the small fleet.
For about a year in 1954-1955 594 and B-unit 583 were used to test the then-new ALCO 251 engine.
Wow. Jackpot! Thanks Dude, really interesting and great info.
Ah, pictures three, four, and five...
If I remember the drill correctly, Lehigh Valley trains were pulled into and out of New York's Pennsylvania Station by the PRR. They were received from and handed off to the Lehigh Valley at the Waverly Avenue interchange in Newark NJ. Obviously the Valley's locomotives (steam or diesel) couldn't operate through the Hudson River tunnels.
Awesome shot of that Erie diesel "blowing it's nose!" I don't think it's Jersey City, Chicago maybe?
Nice nostalgic shot of that corner store, a nice reminder of the days when most neighborhoods had one. I think "Sweet Caporals" lasted into the 1960's, in the American market anyway. I've heard of O'Keefe's Ale but don't know when they passed from the scene. A lot of old-time brews fell by the wayside when tastes changed or they were bought out by other breweries.
That old house to the right of the corner store is interesting as well. I wonder how old, and what kind of story it has to tell?
Of course the CUT with P-motors was Cleveland. The catenary bridges are still in use by Cleveland's RTA.
The CUT P1 motors as built had GE278C motors, just slightly larger than the 746 motors used onthe Erie-builts and Virginian's EL-2B motors. As P2 motors on the NYC, they had 755A motors, which were similar internally to the 746, but had different cases.
CUT class P1a:
Collinwood Yard repair facility on the east end of CUT:
Cab view:
Linndale facility on the West end:
This photo is labled "First crew of student engineers for the CUT electrics."
Too bad neither the locomotives or their facilities survived into the museum and restoration era.
Two of the M-G sets used to provide the 3,000VDC for the locomotives were bought by the Milwaukee. these sets were rated for 3MW coninuously, 4.5MW for two hours and 9MW for five minutes. One went to Janney, where it assisted the three existing 1.5MW sets for powering trains over the continental divide and the other went to Tacoma, so the existing 2MW set could be added to the Doris substation.
These sets were beefy enough that the caternary could be hit by lightning with only a hort growl coming out of the commutators on the DC generators.
Penny TrainsToo bad neither the locomotives or their facilities survived into the museum and restoration era.
The P1a shed has survived. Not sure if CSX uses it for anything anymore. It was unoccupied a few years ago when I took this shot:
P1A_shed by Edmund, on Flickr
The Linndale inspection shed still stands. It borders a junk yard near W. 130th St.
Linndale_P1a-Inspection1 by Edmund, on Flickr
P-1a New at Erie:
CUT_1050crop by Edmund, on Flickr
— and a whole gaggle of them:
GE_Erie_p1a by Edmund, on Flickr
Not all of the catenary supports survived,
CUT_R-of-W by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's the equipment layout inside the carbody:
P-1a_General Apparatus by Edmund, on Flickr
Are these the M-G sets?
CUT_GE_1930_06 by Edmund, on Flickr
P-1a No. 218 was the first to be trial-converted to third rail. Retired in 1948 and the work was done at Harmon in 1951.
The very last operation of the P-1a in Cleveland was on November 16, 1953.
Around 1954 the other motors were returned to Erie to be converted to third rail. Anyone know what the story is behind No. 220 that was destroyed by fire? Was it actually in Erie or did it not make it there and caught fire somewhere else?
CUT_P1a_Erie by Edmund, on Flickr
Thank you, Ed
gmpullmanAre these the M-G sets?
The "Dynamotor" in the carbody served two functions, providing 1500 VDC so a single compressor could be operated by itself and providing a shaft for a low voltage (74VDC or 32 VDC, maybe with taps for both) generator for headlights and control circuits.
CUT's electrification is the only one I know of that used chain in some of the catenary "pull-offs".
Miningman#3 A Lehigh Valley hat trick tonight. Nice to know the Central had some competition on the Honeymoon business!
"Ernest Lehr, Superintendent of Motive Power for the Lehigh Valley Railroad, watches as the last westbound "Black Diamond" leaves Sayre, PA on May 11, 1959."
Sayre Evening Times photo.
Richard Palmer collection.
https://scotlawrence.github.io/BDE1896/BDE-page3.html
"The final run of the Black Diamond Express occurred on May 11, 1959, 63 years after the first run on May 18, 1896."
LV Class T-3 (77" driver):
https://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr2821.htm
"Although the pacifics were the primary power, the new 4-8-4 Wyomings did haul the train on occasion, when super-power was needed. Although the 4-8-4 Wyomings were used primarily as freight power, five of the type, the T3 class wyomings, were designed as dual-service engines and did see some use in passenger service."
The last two T-3 Wyomings, just after the locomotive pictured, had roller bearings on all axles (probably a result of the Four Aces demonstrator). They are notable in being a 'high-speed' design just at the dawn of the age of true high-speed balancing and design, the best of 'conventional' wisdom just before things would change dramatically.
Very few people know about them ... which is a shame.
rcdrye gmpullman Are these the M-G sets? The electrical machines are rotary converters. Basically a large 3 phase motor connected to a DC generator.
gmpullman Are these the M-G sets?
The electrical machines are rotary converters. Basically a large 3 phase motor connected to a DC generator.
Slight nit-pick on terminology, "rotary converter" is usually considered to be a synonym for "synchronous converter", which is a machine with a single armature with a commutator on one end (DC) and slip rings on he other end (AC). The windings are connected to both the commutator and slip rings. Since much of the conversion is effectively done by mechanical rectification, the synchronos converter is typically cheaper and more effeicient than a motor generator (M-G) set. The down side is that a 60Hz synchronous converter is limited to about 750VDC. The IC and South Shore 1500VDC electrification had several substations with two converters in series.
FWIW, a "Dynamotor" has a single armature with commutators on both ends and is used convert on DC voltage to another. On the CUT locomotives, the dynamotor has two essentially identical sets of windings insulated from each other and each winding set is connected to just one commutator apiece (i.e. one winding connected to the "A" end commutator and the other winding connected to the "B" end commutator). The brush connections for the two commutators are connected in series, so each set of windings is carrying 1500VDC, with the winding connected between +3000VDC and +1500VDC acting as a motor and the winding connecting +1500VDC and +0VDC acting as a generator. As with a synchronous converter, the dynamotor is cheaper and a bit more efficient than a DC to DC motor generator set.
Dynamotors were used in tube type mobile two way radios to provide the high voltage for the B+ supply (typ 250 to 400V).
To gmpullman: Those were indeed the M-G sets used to supply the 3000VDC for the CUT electrification. They consisted of a 360rpm synchronous motor in the center and two 1500VDC generators (one at each end) wired in series.
And thank you very much for uploading the scans of the GE CUT bulletin to flckr!
The Lehigh Valley 4-8-4 Wyoming's were beautifully proportioned locomotives, every bit as iconic as the NYC Hudson's but certainly less well known or at least talked about. Gone far too soon.
The P-1a's were also good looking locomotives, although most electrics were, and that's without any sort of streamlining. Most look every bit as good as a GG1 which had that benefit. They definitely had a railroad look to them, powerful and mysterious.
Catanery coming down anywhere is short sighted and backwards.
The suicide curve on the old NY City elevated, but this time under steam power!
#2 Sticking with the elevated, here's an interesting perspective on the operation, from its security guards on high.
#3 Along the Reading. The rather oddly named Phoenixville sports a beautiful station. Research has told me that the towers are gone but the main part remains, however, not railroad related any longer.
4) Another pleasant scene. I could hang out here on a nice spring day even if nothing was happening. Virginian electrics and a Trainmaster. Not bad.
5) CN/Wabash service facilities and yard in Fort Erie. It was a very busy place for a hundred years, even into the modern era, but no longer! Everything is gone except for a portion of the locomotive service building. It is the home of a struggling Railroad Museum.
6) Another look at those Canadian Pacific Dome cars , 40 years before Dome cars!
7) A sad thing. Big Oil, Big Rubber, Big Auto did their job well. Beware the Military Industrial Complex. The Good News is Streetcars and Interurban type operations are making a comeback and it seems to be accelerating. Perhaps we are coming to our senses, in a sense anyway.
8) Sleeping cars making a huge comeback in Europe. Maybe it will begin here anew as well! Climate, Privacy and a Bed! Sounds good to me ! Get there rested, not all flustered. An airplane can't do any of those things.
What's your Slumber Number?
Miningman The P-1a's were also good looking locomotives, although most electrics were, and that's without any sort of streamlining. Most look every bit as good as a GG1 which had that benefit. They definitely had a railroad look to them, powerful and mysterious.
The P-1a's were indeed good looking locomotives. I reviewed the characteristic curves for the GE-278-C-1500/3000 motor, looks like the P-1a would have been good for at least 6,000dbhp short term.
Imagine taking the design for the P-1a, adding another powered axle to each truck (2-D+D-2 instead of 2-C+C-2), changing the gearing to 80/21 instead of 74/27 for more mountainous service, adding regenerative braking and a longer streamlined cab - the result would be a Little Joe.
MiningmanCatenary coming down anywhere is short sighted and backwards.
Certainly NOT in Cleveland. The double engine change added cost and aggravation, even if it did simplify run-through fueling for engines to the east and west of the electrified section. Note that the true fast trains had to be routed via the lakefront line as they couldn't afford the delay to do it smoothly for sleeping passengers twice, and steam power couldn't transit the Terminal Tower complex.
With the introduction of dieseliners, this problem goes away. Bingo! instant 15-minute or more reduction of time possible, fewer costs, less overhead... no issues balancing or assuring run-through power.
Meanwhile NYC indeed WAS considering extended main line electrification ... but not on 3000VDC. And of course no application for it in the Park Avenue tunnels (we would be renaming it Spark Avenue in no time!) so ... no use for catenary as built in Cleveland.
That the motors themselves were extraordinary can be easily shown by their long life as rebuilt. I saw no other electric power on Amtrak or other conventional PC trains at Harmon any time in the early '70s (there were FL-9 trains but they invariably departed southbound under typically asthmatic diesel power).
I was certain they were keeping the one in 'lightning stripe' for preservation, as it hung around for so long; I still can't quite believe they are all gone...
Well then how about this as a reasonable and not too far fetched alternate take.
After WWII the USA and Canadian Governments agree to electrify all railroad main and major branch lines, gratis, free of charge, complete and total, power stations and all. This as a reward and recognition for the Herculean effort provided in winning the war. Also in the best interest of both nations, an eye to the future and national security.
Also included is a major upgrade in Interurbans and Streetcar lines, a transformation from rickety shoestring operations to world leading cutting edge services and equipment. Also very much in the national interest and a terrific investment in the future.
General Electric and Westinghouse and minor players would benefit. EMD would not dominate the market and the steam builders, no strangers to electrics, such as Baldwin, would be on an even par.
Keep steam on a retreating basis as the new system was built, maybe 10 years.
Smaller branch lines and yards would remain the stronghold of Diesel switchers of which everyone built a good one. This also avoids complicated and rather ugly catenary situations.
That could have happened and perhaps should have happened. Maybe those P-1a's may still be in use today.
I know pie in the sky but we would be better off today.
Miningman #2 Sticking with the elevated, here's an interesting perspective on the operation, from its security guards on high.
One of my top three time travel destinations, the Art Deco paradise that is long gone; there were the terminals of American's best crack trains and ocean liners, vintage elevator that took people to the top of the World, extinct historical cuisines inside or outside the dining car; home of legendary musician, writer, and entrepreneur; the capital of everything that you don't want to miss... (except those negative things that you could find in this article: http://lifewithoutbuildings.net/2013/12/design-decoded-traveling-in-style-and-comfort-the-pullman-sleeping-car.html)
Miningman#3 Along the Reading. The rather oddly named Phoenixville sports a beautiful station. Research has told me that the towers are gone but the main part remains, however, not railroad related any longer.
A History of Rail in Phoenixville:
Phoenixville Mayor Peter Urscheler has been working on bringing back the rail service to Phoenixville. An article from April 2019:
https://www.pottsmerc.com/news/phoenixville-hosting-rail-service-town-hall-on-monday/article_c61edfd4-6147-11e9-aae1-9f132a03942d.html
Miningman4) Another pleasant scene. I could hang out here on a nice spring day even if nothing was happening. Virginian electrics and a Trainmaster. Not bad.
That Virginian EL-2B on the right-hand side missing one truck!
Miningman6) Another look at those Canadian Pacific Dome cars , 40 years before Dome cars!
CP also had "sunbathing car" like this:
Miningman 8) What's your Slumber Number?
2046
CN and CP both ran open-air observation cars well into the 1960s.
Phoenixville! I know where that is, I've been there! Just down the road a bit from Valley Forge National Park. Those were Reading tracks, now they're Norfolk-Southern.
I'm sure most of you have figured it out already, but the name Phoenixville comes from the Phoenix Iron Company.
Yes, the old Reading station is still there. The last time I saw it it was a restaurant-brew pub-sports bar. Or something similar. Anything but a train station.
Nice, interesting old town is Phoenixville. Here's the historical society website...
https://www.hspa-pa.org
And for the story of the "Griffen Gun," otherwise know as the US Three Inch Ordnance Rifle made by the Phoenix Iron Works during the Civil War...
https://www.hspa-pa.org/picture_gallery_griffengun.html
A good piece of gear, that Griffen gun. None were known to fail, that is crack open or blow up during the war years, and many stayed in service until the 1890's. In fact they were so strong many were used in breechloader conversion experiments.
MiningmanNot railroad but Classic .. Sweet Caps are long gone
I enjoyed seeing that.
There was a time in Canada when there was price variation in cigarettes. Sweet Caps were the cheapest, except for single nickel ones.
I remember my uncle and Dad sitting around the kitchen table talking about how happy they were once they got good enough jobs that they could afford to no longer have to smoke Sweet Caps. Before my time, but I guess they were bad.
Did Americans ever have Export "A" or their brutal unfillterd counterparts, Export?
American nasty export smokes? Not that I'm aware of. As a matter of fact if all those war movies I used to watch are to be believed people overseas were thrilled to get their hands on American cigarettes. As I've heard plenty of times in the movies...
"Ach! Amerikanische zigaretten! Wunderbar!" Or in some films...
"Ah-so! Amelican zigalettes!"
And I can tell you from first-hand experience (A NATO operation in the 1970's) folks in Europe were still crazy about American cigarettes! The troops were trading cartons of 'em to the locals for all kinds of stuff!
And unless I'm mistaken filtered cigarettes didn't show up until the post-war era, prior to then they all were unfiltered.
Certainly, brands have come and gone, for various reasons.
No no, Agent Kid means MacDonalds Corp Export 'A' and Export. Long time sponsors of the curling championship The Briar, named after their famous tobacco. Also famous for the MacDonalds Girl logo, in her kilt.
Pretty sure not available stateside, however, some fine tobacco shops did carry Players and Rothmans.
I have 3 packs of unopened non filter Export from 8 years ago, the last time you could buy them. They were a big time powerful smoke but very smooth. Known widely as the 'green death'. Export 'A' is still available but all cigarettes up here must now be in plain packaging, all the same colour, no logos, a simple identifier, as is shown on the Export 'A' package. Social Engineers at work taking away freedoms.
After 85 years someone complained that the MacDonalds girl was too exploitive and sexist so they came up with just the face shot. There used to be huge billboards of her all over towns. Now she is gone completely.
Sorry about all that chaps... here have a Quality Street.
I have seen Players and Rothman's in some tobacco shops down here, and I think I've seen Quality Street candies in some high-end candy shops.
Lady Firestorm prefers the British Cadbury's when she can find them, but the regular American market Cadburys usually suit her just fine. British Cadburys are one of the reasons she enjoyed trips to Newfoundland so much.
My late brother-in-law used to love those French Gitanes smokes, you know, the ones that smell like a burning rag pile?
A question that has no answer, why do tobacco shops smell so good, but burning tobacco never smells as good as the shop does?
I've never seen MacDonalds Exports, that's a new one on me.
Miningman Sorry about all that chaps... here have a Quality Street.
My top three favorites are "The Green Triangle", Toffee Penny, and Orange Chocolate Crunch. Coconut Eclair is great too. I can't remember the rest, just pick them randomly when I got a box of it...
The Green Triangle, yes! So good! Luv the purple ' Hazelnut in Caramel' and the blue 'Coconut Eclair' but dang they are all good.
All boys in Canada grew up with this lassy.
Store window sticker.
Reminds me of Black Label Mabel.
And here she is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUd6lYNc_EE
Years back, a buddy and I drank Carling's Black Label all week long so we had a nice stock of those red cans for the weekend. Why, you ask?
They made great targets for our muzzleloading rifles! Redcoats 'ya know...
Ah, Miss MacDonald was a cutie! I wonder if she's related to Mike?
Lackawanna's Hoboken Terminal .. note the attention to detail. What a beautiful space.
2) It is truly remarkable how pictures turn out sometimes..this is way good!
3) Definitely not the Broadway but why 2 cabeese, or 1 for that matter. I know it's a switching move... but a caboose is required?
4) 0-6-0's chugging through the streets of Vancouver, an everyday scene back in the day. I recall scenes like this is Hamilton, on Ferguson Ave downtown.
CPR train crossing Hastings at Carrall, 1932
Source: Photo by William Stark, City of Vancouver Archives #Can N32
One more late addition: #5)
Assist up Sherman in 1957, a FEF and a Big Boy... interesting because we can do this very scene today ( doublestacks instead of reefers though)
Let's take those photos seriatim...
Photo 1. Hoboken Terminal! I was there back in the 90's for a C&O 614 excursion, Hoboken to Port Jervis, and it's an awesome place. Even more so when you think of all the history there, and who came and went over the years.
For more than you'd ever want to know about Hoboken Terminal check this out, and scroll down for a nine page photo essay. Click on the photos to enlarge.
http://www.subwaynut.com/njt/hoboken_terminal/index.php
Photo 2. Wow! Looks more like a photo-realist school painting than a photo, and a spectacular one at that!
Photo 3. Must be some kind of equipment move, from where they are to where they're needed, and look at the disparity in size between those two cabooses!
Photo 4. Wow, street running. It still exists in some parts of the country.
And Photo 5. That must be one HELL of a long freight train if a Big Boy needs an assist!
The switcher/passenger car/cabooses shot is probably a yard transfer that has gathered up everything that needed to be moved at that particular time.
Big Boys were originally designed to take a standard size train up grades without a helper, and then run with that same train at 60+ mph. But there were not enough of them built to completely eliminate helper operations, and once put into service UP realized they were more capable than originally thought, and and increased their tonnage ratings.
The heaviest train a Big Boy could haul on flatter territory would still require a helper on certain grades.
Or, perhaps the helper has been added to increase speed. There was a epic photo in the magazine several years ago of a 4-8-4 storming out of a station while leading three yellow E-units on a passenger train. The caption stated that the train was about one hour late (eek!), and the steam locomotive (with its extra crew) had been added to make up the time. You sure don't see that kind of dedication anymore!
Looked better back in the day. Many interesting buildings are gone such as the Rex Theatre. The clock on the corner must be gone too.
Did not know that Vancouver had left side driving. Keep your sword hand free I guess.
Sweden hand driving on the left up until December 1967, even though the cars SAAB's and Volvo's were built with steering wheels on the left. Accident rate went down for a couple of weeks after the transistion as most people were cautious about driving on the other side of the road.
SD70DudeThe switcher/passenger car/cabooses shot is probably a yard transfer that has gathered up everything that needed to be moved at that particular time.
There are photos of CPR Passenger Trains west of Calgary with cabooses behind. During the peak summer season when both the Montreal and Toronto versions of "The Dominion" would have to be broken up into sections, and at the same time there was an imbalance of freight train crews at the far end of their trip, freight crews would work the passenger trains and bring their assigned cabooses home with them. This was quite common.
Freight crews would keep their passenger train uniforms with them. I saw this once even on the mixed train at Irricana when the conductor showed me his fancy hat he had in a cupboard in the caboose.
1). Another paint scheme on the British Columbia Railway for its short lived 'Starlight' 1997-2002. Also an newly introduced sister train the 2001 'Whistler Northwind'. I suppose you could claim they were predecessors to the Rocky Mountaineer.
So what happened to the equipment? Rotting away in Canon City, Colorado.
https://abandonedplaygrounds.com/2019/01/21/the-pacific-starlight-abandoned-dinner-trains/
2) The Canadian National Exhibition, known as the CNE, is known for its spectacular entrances. Here is the very popular Dufferin Gate served by Streetcars.
Dufferin Gates with fan, Exhibition Park
Of course it's all too nice and good so we have to demolish it.
3). Mess! Interurban mishap. 1952 near Racine Wisconsin on the North Shore.
4). Lehigh Valley Rounhouse and Turntable. Corrected from earlier misidentification . Plenty of Camelbacks in view. Back when they knew what they were doing. No Diesels, the invasion is yet to come.
Nice image. Busy place! Date and photographer unknown.
CNJ Roundhouse and Turntable
Is that CNJ in Allentown?
Miningman 1). Another paint scheme on the British Columbia Railway for its short lived 'Starlight' 1997-2002. Also an newly introduced sister train the 2001 'Whistler Northbound'. I suppose you could claim they were predecessors to the Rocky Mountaineer. So what happened to the equipment? Rotting away in Canon City, Colorado. https://abandonedplaygrounds.com/2019/01/21/the-pacific-starlight-abandoned-dinner-trains/
1). Another paint scheme on the British Columbia Railway for its short lived 'Starlight' 1997-2002. Also an newly introduced sister train the 2001 'Whistler Northbound'. I suppose you could claim they were predecessors to the Rocky Mountaineer.
Not northbound, Whistler Northwind:
http://www.trainweb.org/ultradomes/bcr/northwind.html
The glass-roofed cars were purchased by VIA Rail after the demise of all BC Rail passenger service, and were placed into service on the Skeena and Canadian (only between Vancouver and Edmonton). VIA calls them "Panorama" cars.
Most of those CAT-engined RS-18 rebuilds were sold to a scrapper by CN after the takeover. The scrapper then arranged to lease site space at the Alberta Railway Museum to cut them up. We never owned them, but were able to scavenge quite a few useful parts from them (this was before I started volunteering).
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=8308
Thanks Dude... Freudian slip...fixed it!
Backshop-- not sure but our resident Jersey nuts will know.. Overmod or Flintlock.
Backshop and all! I have heard from Mike on the Roundhouse. It appears that is not CNJ at all but Lehigh Valley in the 30's.
I could be wrong, but there's a tourist railroad at Canyon City (I don't have the means to accent the "n" Spanish style. Sorry) and I'm guessing they bought those cars, and then didn't know what to do with 'em. Sad.
Impressive, that Lehigh Valley roundhouse! My, my, what was, and is no more. What happened?
OK I know what happened. But what happened?
What happened? Big Oil, Big Auto, Big Rubber, the military-industrial complex, buy now pay later, woe to those who don't play along and do their bidding.
The roundhouse story sort of thickens. Apparently the CNJ had a Roundhouse very similar nearby in Allentown.
Even Mike is not 100% convinced it's Lehigh Valley. Perhaps someone could identify a very specific locomotive type. There are many Camelbacks. I count 40 steam locomotives of various types in the photo.
It's the Jersey Central roundhouse.
I got aggressive on enlarging the image, went up to 225%, and in the lower left hand corner of the image there's a Camelback with the "Statue of Liberty" herald on the tender, and just to its left (our right) there's a large locomotive with what looks like "Reading" lettering on the tender. The Reading did use that CNJ facility.
And good Lord, all those Camelbacks! The place is swarming with them! Only the CNJ had that many Camels at that late date, post-1945.
And continuing the the Jersey Central vein, I found some short "teaser" videos of the CNJ operations in Pennsylvania. They're commercials for John Pechulis videos but interesting just the same. Volumes 1, 3, and 4 of "Along the Jersey Central." Volume 4 has footage of the Ashley Planes!
Volume 2 covers operations around Elizabeth and that part of Jersey, not germanine to this discussion, so I left that one out. Here you go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BfIILYpsD8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYCM_A-6D4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfzLmdKl5E4
Miningman What happened? Big Oil, Big Auto, Big Rubber, the military-industrial complex, buy now pay later, woe to those who don't play along and do their bidding.
CSSHEGEWISCHWhat really happened was that you had two railroads (CNJ & LV) paralleling each other to an absurd extreme with both of them going after traffic that was barely enough to support one route, let alone two.
In all fairness, at the time the routes were 'built out' there was ample traffic for both. And perhaps more meaningfully, the prospects for traffic through that general area was much greater in the time of the Reading Combine (and, probably, in the expectations for the combined Reading/CNJ route north from the ABC area when the artificial depression that started with the killing of the Combine was over).
To the east, you can recognize both the end of the extensive passenger operations of CNJ and the substantial anthracite-related traffic (I believe those are 2-10-2s at lower left). I am not sure what kinds of coal traffic would have served the evolving steel mills in that region -- some considerable part of it likely bituminous, whether met coal or not -- but it would have been added to the traffic for heating fuel.
Meanwhile, the 'upper' end of the CNJ presence as CNP essentially ended not far above Wilkes-Barre, and I think connected preferentially up to the northeast, while the LV explicitly ran its traffic through to the lake port facilities around Buffalo. You see this clear difference in the power requirements actually used for the two lines.
I think it is important to recognize that the B&O/Reading/CNJ service on the "Bound Brook Route" (which involved the high-speed traffic from Philadelphia and Washington) is different from this CNJ plant. (Even so, this is the line that would host the relatively-amazing Bullet service in the early Thirties, part of which (in New Jersey) is the Phillipsburg line still in use today by NJT.)
Miningman2) The Canadian National Exhibition, known as the CNE, is known for its spectacular entrances. Here is the very popular Dufferin Gate served by Streetcars. Historic photo from Monday, November 16, 1942 - Dufferin Gates with fan, Exhibition Park in CNE Dufferin Gates with fan, Exhibition Park Busy factories bring better times! Historic photo from 1932 - Dufferin St. Gate - Busy Factories Bring Better Times - illuminated sign in CNE Of course it's all too nice and good so we have to demolish it. Historic photo from 1958 - Demolition of 1910 CNE Dufferin Gates in CNE Demolition of CNE Dufferin
I feel your pain.
That "Great Lakes Exposition" must have been a hell of a show!
And that looks like the "William Mason" at the head end of Mr. Lincoln's train!
Looks like the B&O was showing off the collection!
1) Really interesting lash-ups like this really don't happen anymore.
4503--C630 4463--FPB-2 8773-- RS-18 All Alco/MLW
4503_4463_8773 sitting on shop track at St.Luc. M6002-04 5/1968 September 14, 1969
Note the switch lamp sitting on the ground. This indicates switch has been run through, is spiked and cannot be realigned.
#2
Covered wagons 4042 in Script and 4095 Multimark. October 15, 1972
4042 FA2 MLW 77712 7/1951 and 4095 FPA2 MLW 79171 11/1953
#3. The Black Prince! The Dark Knight?
Manitoba District engine assigned to Winnipeg.It is the only known 2800 painted in freight black! Edmonton 1957. Painted at Weston shops in November 1956. Harold Ames/Dave Spiegelman Collection.
#4. CPR semi-streamlined a lot of locomotives in many types and classes, including 69 Mikados
P2g class 5405-5473. Built from July 1940 to the last one 5473 Oct. 1948
5410 posed rods-down. Likely new at Angus Shops. (No background is typical dark room work CPR photos).MLW 69280 8/1940 Bud Laws Collection
5414 Brand new just delivered from Montreal Locomotive Works. Outremont, Que. 8/20/1940James A. Brown Collection
#5. My locomotive of the month! A Pacific with a pepsqueek tender. Looks great!
Spotless 2512 with vestibule cab and original small tender. CPR 5/1907
G2c rebuilt 10/1925 with old boiler 200 lbs. and new 22 1/2" x 28" cyl.
"The Black Prince!" I like that! As to why the freight black, I'm guessing it may have gotten to the status of "Just do enough to keep it alive and in one piece until the diesel replacement shows up."
Basic black certainly would have been a lot cheaper than the deluxe paint scheme it came with.
That Pacific with the abnormally short tender. In commuter service, maybe? I can't think of any other logical reason.
Miningman1) Really interesting lash-ups like this really don't happen anymore. 4503--C630 4463--FPB-2 8773-- RS-18 All Alco/MLW
They do, you just have to use a lot more letters and numbers to describe locomotives that appear to be the same.
Penny Trains Miningman 1) Really interesting lash-ups like this really don't happen anymore. 4503--C630 4463--FPB-2 8773-- RS-18 All Alco/MLW They do, you just have to use a lot more letters and numbers to describe locomotives that appear to be the same.
Miningman 1) Really interesting lash-ups like this really don't happen anymore. 4503--C630 4463--FPB-2 8773-- RS-18 All Alco/MLW
CSSHEGEWISCH Penny Trains Miningman 1) Really interesting lash-ups like this really don't happen anymore. 4503--C630 4463--FPB-2 8773-- RS-18 All Alco/MLW They do, you just have to use a lot more letters and numbers to describe locomotives that appear to be the same. Diesels DO NOT all look alike.
Well no, but sometimes you have to work to spot the differences. "Oh yeah, NOW I see!"
Hey, when I started getting into rail history I couldn't spot the differences and nuances between different steam engines either, unless they really jumped out at me.
What can I say? In 1975 I wasn't a railfan, and when the bus I was riding took an overpass by Washington's Union Station yard and I saw the Amtrak GG1's I thought to myself, "Wow, look at all those cool 1930's diesels! I didn't think there were any around anymore!"
What did I know? Although I did know Art Deco when I saw it.
CSSHEGEWISCHDiesels DO NOT all look alikeSoapBox.
Modern American safety cab hood units look much more alike than first gen units ever did. Don't worry, I'm not a diesel hater. I just long for the days when it was easier to tell a loco apart aside from the hard to memorize model names they have today.
Penny Trains CSSHEGEWISCH Diesels DO NOT all look alikeSoapBox. Modern American safety cab hood units look much more alike than first gen units ever did. Don't worry, I'm not a diesel hater. I just long for the days when it was easier to tell a loco apart aside from the hard to memorize model names they have today.
CSSHEGEWISCH Diesels DO NOT all look alikeSoapBox.
1) Prototyoe HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83
2) Nice glimpse of the New Haven in action with Commuters
3) Another glimpse...Milwaukee Road... people actually rationalize that it's a good thing it is gone, that it was never viable.. malarkey! This is big time Railroading!
4) Most sadly the end of the line
(a) Clinchfield Challenger
(b). An Allegheny..scrapyard in Chicago
(c) GP9 B..
Miningman 2) Nice glimpse of the New Haven in action with Commuters 3) Another glimpse...Milwaukee Road... people actually rationalize that it's a good thing it is gone, that it was never viable.. malarkey! This is big time Railroading!
The New Haven photo was on the Cape Cod Canal bridge. They had service to the Cape, but I don't know if it was considered in the commuter zone.
The MILW photo looks like Mobridge (Missouri River Bridge) which still sees BNSF trains.
Thanks for commenting Midland Mike. Our NH fans and ex-pats from the area will know for sure. They look like commuter double decker to me but maybe it's a special move.
Glad to hear that bridge is still around... can't see an asset like that going to waste. Both pictures!
It is difficult for myself and certainly others to get our head around all that has been lost. The many different roads that were so important, the meaning, value , character and atmosphere of being around our local railroads, all lost forever. The Milwaukee, Rock Island, Central Vermont, M&St. L and so many others all gone, vanished. Worse yet for me are the many railfans that have cheered this on.. thankfully just as many that work in preservation and rememberance.
MiningmanOur NH fans and ex-pats from the area will know for sure. They look like commuter double decker to me but maybe it's a special move.
Surely the trailing locomotive in T colors would give it away if the doubledeckers didn't -- this is long past New Haven days.
For those interested in FL9s and the Cape Cod Canal...
https://www.capetrain.com/about/
and for the MBTA train to Cape Cod
https://capeflyer.com/
Miningman 1) Prototyoe HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83 2) Nice glimpse of the New Haven in action with Commuters
The first of the prototype HST power cars, 43000, built as 41 001 has been preserved in working order and was working on a preserved railway with matching trailer cars, but has been returned to the National Railway Museum.
The bilevel commuter cars post date the New Haven by twenty years or more. These are double deck cars rather than gallery cars and are built to reduced clearance compared to those in Chicago, for example. So the train is presumably a Connecticut DOT operation rather than New Haven.
Those are T coaches from Boston. The purple stripe is the giveaway.
More views of the same but not the consist.
Titled: RailPictures.Net Photo: MC 2011 Mass Coastal Railroad EMD FL9M at Bourne, Massachusetts by Vincent Colombo
Miningman Central Vermont, ... and so many others all gone, vanished.
Central Vermont, ... and so many others all gone, vanished.
Central Vermont is now called the New England Central, and is alive and well. It even carries Amtrak trains thru Vermont.
Yes yes of course. I hope they are doing well and long may they survive. On the other hand a great deal of trackage has been lost forever in New England. Many of the household names are gone.
A pic I can relate to at this time of the year. New York City elevated with some winter weather to contend with.
Nicer weather. Must have been great to be a kid with this view daily!
PRR West of Altoona , near or approaching Horseshoe Curve. All 4 tracks occupied with trains. 1907 PRR in its glory, imagine witnessing this routinely.
rcdrye Those are T coaches from Boston. The purple stripe is the giveaway.
On closer inspection, I agree the stripe is purple rather than orange....
But they are still decades later than the New Haven....
I think the New York MTA bought the first of these...
I'm still waiting to hear why Peter thought CDOT would be running a service onto Cape Cod. They'd have to go all the way through Rhode Island just to get to Massachusetts in the first place...
Meanwhile, this via RyPN: Wayne will appreciate some details in the first clip
Note the very old coach in the work train, and how long the RDG Pacific pops off without the fireman using the injector -- I think the engineer is intent on clearing the obstruction in minimum time and getting right back up to speed!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CapeFlyer
Running with Mass Coastal power for whatever reason...
To be fair, CDOT are the closest people running McGinnis-painted equipment, though the FL9s are ex-Metro North.
NorthWestRunning with Mass Coastal power for whatever reason... To be fair, CDOT are the closest people running McGinnis-painted equipment, though the FL9s are ex-Metro North.
Mass Coastal is a freight line, and doesn't run FL9s. As in the link I previously posted (before, in fact, Peter even brought up CDOT) 2011 is running for the Cape Cod Central guys, and to my knowledge is still dolled up in a Matter paint scheme:
(Incidentally, has anyone noticed disappearing posts in the last couple of hours?)
Overmod (Incidentally, has anyone noticed disappearing posts in the last couple of hours?)
More "upgrades". Yay.
Interesting stuff all around.
More on scrapping steam.
Mass Coastal and Cape Cod Central are two sides of the same Iowa Pacific operation.
They also have MC 2026, another FL9.
Both were CDOT units used in the Metro-North power pool.
I don't remember everything that was posted days ago...
Miningman 1) Prototyoe HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83
The styling of the HST prototype reminds me of the 6000hp British Rail Class 89 prototype electric engine:
Look at that crying-robot-face front end... cute!
Jones1945 Look at that crying-robot-face front end... cute!
With the horns it tooted - it should be put out of its misery!
That's Bozzo the Clowns horn. Design Engineer must have been a fan.
NorthWest Mass Coastal and Cape Cod Central are two sides of the same Iowa Pacific operation. They also have MC 2026, another FL9.
With Iowa Pacific's bankruptcy, it puts some uncertainty into the FL-9 operation.
Miningman That's Bozzo the Clowns horn. Design Engineer must have been a fan.
I thought it was the sound of my cat's purr or he just farted...
Jones1945 Miningman 1) Prototype HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83 The styling of the HST prototype reminds me of the 6000hp British Rail Class 89 prototype electric engine...
Miningman 1) Prototype HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83
1) Prototype HST Power cars, at the Derby Works Oct. '83
The styling of the HST prototype reminds me of the 6000hp British Rail Class 89 prototype electric engine...
I don't think I'll ever look at the HST prototype again without thinking of minions.
Long ago, of course, it was Kubrick. Remember the pods?
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/375:_Pod_Bay_Doors
The High Line being built.
The High Line in use.
The High Line today ...no more rails, being lifted.
2) Holy Makinaw, that's a lot of loco's. Looks like all Southern and Norfolk and Western and their affiliates but 2 Great Northern in Sky Blue? ( maybe not) snuck in there.
3) Now this is a nice looking corporate image. Down South too in Yankee Blue? Well I like it!
4) A rare photo capture! Mickey and Pluto taking the train. Perhaps going on vacation... now where would they go?
5) This one is for CSSHEGEWISCH. CSS, 11th Ave, Michigan City, Indiana, GP38-2's .
6) The Blue Comet. If only we could go for a ride on the real thing.
Great photo spread! Let's take 'em one by one...
1) The High Line. What can we say? Sic transit gloria mundi.
2) Man, that IS a lot of locomotives! Where the hell is it? All that unused power, mysterious, to say the least.
3) Now that's a nice paint scheme on that TAG Line Geep! It has to be, if it makes a Geep look elegant!
4) Now that shot of Mickey and Pluto makes me think "Penny Trains" was in Disney World at exactly the right time and place, and with camera locked n' loaded!
5) Street running! Real ol' time Americana! Wonder who's got the "right of way?"
6) Groan! My late, lamented "Blue Comet!" And with a dirigible in the background, no less! Makes sense, Lakehurst Naval Air Station isn't too far away from Lakewood. In fact, Paul Kimball Hospital in Lakewood is where the Hindenburg's civilian casualties were taken in 1937. The hospital's still there, although heavily rebuilt since that time.
The poster gives the impression Lakewood was a destination. Not really, Atlantic City was THE destination, although Lakewood WAS a station stop for the Comet.
Miningman 2) Holy Makinaw, that's a lot of loco's. Looks like all Southern and Norfolk and Western and their affiliates but 2 Great Northern in Sky Blue? ( maybe not) snuck in there.
Those blue units are Conrail.
Miningman4) A rare photo capture! Mickey and Pluto taking the train. Perhaps going on vacation... now where would they go?
From one Disneyland to another Disneyland. Imagine Mickey's train stuck inside a slum in India and Brazil, Pluto visits a food market in China... culture shock to the max.
Firelock-- So it's THAT Lakewood! Thanks
-- Had to be Penny!
-- Someone here can tell us where it is, and why. Somewhere on NS, all those coal hoppers! Trade in power? Stored?
Midland Mike--- Conrail! The black roofs threw me off.
Jones-- Mickey sold out? Money over freedom? Next thing you know he's the spokesperson for the NBA and Apple.
The Blue Comet? I'd even settle for a ride on the Nelly Bly! (The PRR competition that lasted several years after WWII, GG1 to K4 or E6 at Trenton.)
daveklepper The Blue Comet? I'd even settle for a ride on the Nelly Bly! (The PRR competition that lasted several years after WWII, GG1 to K4 or E6 at Trenton.)
Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind a ride on the "Nelly Bly" either! But on the other hand, Lionel never made a "Nelly Bly," or if they did, it wasn't like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4L6OPvLZsI
Oh baby...
By the way, I've never seen a photo or video that did justice to that pre-war "Blue Comet" set in the sense of showing it's size. You really have to see it in person to appreciate just how big that train set is. Takes your breath away, trust me.
PRR K4s Vs. CNJ G-3!
Flintlock764) Now that shot of Mickey and Pluto makes me think "Penny Trains" was in Disney World at exactly the right time and place, and with camera locked n' loaded!
You open THAT door you KNOW I'm gonna walk through it!
Becky, you walk through that door whenever you like! You're a treasure!
Guys, who needs the "Hallmark Channel" if "Penny Trains" is in the neighborhood?
I second that. Who NEEDS the Hallmark channel!
No.5 is terrific. The line is supposed to be rerouted in a few years. I hope to take my son and the grandkids on a ride through Michigan City this coming August. It is a part of America soon to be lost forever.
There's a place in New York State where the Susquehanna does some street running. I don't remember where it is, when I find out I'll get back to everyone.
Penny Trains You open THAT door you KNOW I'm gonna walk through it!
That was quite the walk-through!
Did appreciate some of the anachronisms such as the Skull from the pre-1970 version of Fantasyland and the post ~1990 rocket ship ride (I greatly preferred the Bonestell theme from the original Tomorrowland). FWIW, the model of Disneland at the Disney Museum in San Francisco shows the Flying Saucer ride (1963-67) with some of the more modern rides.
Back to "All those locomotives:" Not GN, clearly Conrail blue.
As previously stated the black along the top threw me off. Also I suppose Big Sky Blue wasn't around long enough to get all faded like that. Contrail it's is. Now what's the rest of story?
There may be other places where street running occurs. But I'm sure the South Shore is the last Interurban running in the street. It will be a thrill for me and the grandkids. I'm only sorry that electric locomotives no longer pull the freight on the South Shore.
I was in Plano, Texas over the weekend and had the opportunity to ride the north end of the 'red line' of the DART light rail system down to Union Station (hoping the Acela-2 set going to Pueblo might be in 22/422's consist). The standard vehicle is a four-truck articulated Kinki-Sharyo car, with the center section containing the low-floor access (platform height being adjusted for zero walkover to the low section). The cars can MU for rush-hour service.
This features running at 65mph for considerable distances, including up and down some fairly adventurous flyover bridges and over some interesting combinations of curve and grade, but also features several blocks of street running. And a very, very, very large number of grade crossings, some of which are approached around curves at a high rate of speed.
Signals are color-light on the high-speed parts of the run, but the kind of streetcar signal that shows a white horizontal bar for stop and vertical bar for proceed permission, to distinguish aspects from traffic signals, for the street running.
Interestingly enough, the cars have something sounding very similar to Hancock air whistles for those many grade crossings ... but have a nice loud air horn for 'problems' requiring more immediate attention.
Flintlock76 There's a place in New York State where the Susquehanna does some street running. I don't remember where it is, when I find out I'll get back to everyone.
It's in Utica NY, a one-mile run on Schuyler Street. It's actually the old Lackawanna's entrance route to Utica.
Mod-man, we were in the Plano area the first time about thirty years ago, and there was nothing, absolutely nothing, between Plano and Dallas. The last time we were in the area was four years ago, and the urban sprawl from Dallas to the Plano and Sherman areas was absolutely shocking.
DART also runs to the university town of Denton and is VERY popular. Charming town Denton, very walkable and with a great center of town area.
Overmod--" Interestingly enough, the cars have something sounding very similar to Hancock air whistles for those many grade crossings ... but have a nice loud air horn for 'problems' requiring more immediate attention."
Good to see someone was thinking!
Wonder how they got that thru all the committees and meetings.
MiningmanWonder how they got that thru all the committees and meetings.
They were built in Japan. Probably just quietly installed them without making a big thing out of it...
Speaking of street running, that reminds me of a recurring dream I have where there are tracks down the middle of my street. At least there are when there isn't a monorail on the tree lawn. Seriously though, a railroad did run accross the street from my house. Most traffic was northbound and conductors and riders followed the creekbed in the dead of night.
When I first heard the name of that railroad, I thought it was in a l-o-n-g tunnel. Wayne probably remembers the Underground Railroad episode of "The Great Adventure" which aired early 1964.
Would have loved to see the street running that took place between my high school and the jr high that I attended 8th and 9th grades. I would also liked to have seen the street running on two streets that I crossed to and from my 7th grade jr high in front of what is now the Nevada Governors Mansion.
I found a short video of a Susquehanna plow extra doing some street running in Utica. The street run comes at the 2:00 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S04T1Xl_gSs
Cool, huh?
UP still runs a couple of blocks on the Embarcadero in Oakland north of Amtrak's Jack London Square station. In SP days it was directional double track, but now it's bidirectional CTC, so "don't drive here" lines are painted on the "lanes" used by UP freights and Amtrak Capitol Corridor trains.
MiningmanNow what's the rest of story?
Some clues here for acquiring the date -- pass 'em to Mike.
Note the big Alco a few engines back - and, shades of the Lost Engines of Roanoke, isn't that a Chesapeake Western engine (complete with what appears to be a stylish chime horn) in the right foreground? This leads me to think this picture is associated with a locomotive or scrap dealer...
Those Conrail engines appear to be SD45s (they don't appear to have visible axle snubbers), which may account for a likely early retirement. Don't know if these are ex-EL long-chassis units, one of which certainly wound up in Roanoke for the longest time (it's been saved by a group doing it justice at last!) Looks like another end-cab switcher behind them ... perhaps a T6? and somebody may have enough spotting clues to ID the slug immediately behind that.
Ok I've tracked it down.
Former Virginian Rwy. Yard in Roanoke, Virginia Aug. 1985
' Some units stored but for most time has run out'
Identifiable:
Southern SD35's 3032 & 3066
Conrail SDP45's 6678 & 6683
N&W GP18 #941; Alco C630 #137
Chesapeake & Western Alco T6 #11
Erik_Mag When I first heard the name of that railroad, I thought it was in a l-o-n-g tunnel. Wayne probably remembers the Underground Railroad episode of "The Great Adventure" which aired early 1964. Would have loved to see the street running that took place between my high school and the jr high that I attended 8th and 9th grades. I would also liked to have seen the street running on two streets that I crossed to and from my 7th grade jr high in front of what is now the Nevada Governors Mansion.
I sure do! The episode was called "Go Down Moses," and starred Ruby Dee as Harriet Tubman. Great performance by Ruby, she showed how tough Harriet really was.
And here it is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdS0Exk7oU
Street Running... how about ' Front Yard Running' !!
"Right in her own front yard". Rock Island train bound for Columbus Junction with former CRIP #1247 on the point.
Wow! The Rock looks like it's about to roll over! Are these tracks still there?
Don't know. It's in Burlington, Iowa. Considering Iowa has lost a heck of a lot trackage since and it's the Rock Island I would say the chances are pretty fair that it does not exist today, but that's only a guess. Someone here might know, or a good railroad map of the area.
GeoffS Wow! The Rock looks like it's about to roll over! Are these tracks still there?
I wouldn't think so, in fact from the look of that locomotive the tracks were probably poorly maintained at the time with the idea the line would be abandoned soon and the tracks pulled up, so why spend the money to keep it up? And wow, look at all the weeds along the right-of-way! I'd say that line didn't have long to live.
Must be gone. Mike Walker's atlas shows CRIP tracks abandoned from Burlington north to Columbus Junction and on although tracks still go east west in Columbus Jct. You can follow tracks north from Burlington for a short distance on Google satellite but they end near a trail (what else?). Must have been fun living so close to those tracks once!
Don't know if these are ex-EL long-chassis units, one of which certainly wound up in Roanoke for the longest time
The nearer unit definitely is an SDP45. On a standard SD45, the radiator casing extended right to the end of the hood. A narrower hood extension beyond the radiator is just visible on the nearer Conrail unit.
More fascinating items:
1) New York Central 4-6-0's with assigned commuter trains. Yorktown Heights NY Sept 9, 1951. Nice to see ten wheelers on the mighty Central this late in the game but I imagine their time will be coming up real soon.
2) Sticking with smaller steam, you just got to love an 0-6-0. Toiling away in obscurity for decades putting it all together. This one is interesting.
CN Stratford shop engine 7312 (an 0-6-0 built by Baldwin in 1908 for the Grand Trunk Railway) is pictured just removed from service in March 1960. 7312 would soon be sold to the Strasburg Railroad in Pennsylvania for tourist service, where it acquired the number 31. It is still in service today, restored to its previous CN number 7312
3) You know for a while The Pennsy actually looked pretty good, even their gons!
4) The seldom talked about Monongahelia. Along with N&W these are small rural town scenes that are now vanished.
5) Here's one for NDG. Henry Morgans ( not the famous pirate) department store on St. Catherine St. in Montreal 1890. It was Canada's first department store. Simply called Morgans , Henry eventually opened stores across the country. They were also kind of higher class, really a cut above. I remember the Morgans in Hamilton and their fabulous windows and at Christmas the decorations were breath taking. By the way the building is still standing. They were eventually purchased by Hudson's Bay.
6) Going to a Cubs game? Take the streetcar of course. Don't think you can do this any longer, maybe buses?
7) Breaking Bad made Albuquerque NM famous again but before that was Bugs Bunny making a wrong turn and before that was the Santa Fe and their sprawling magnificent backshop.
Progress or downhill ? .. the Roundhouse is gone!
8) At one time the New York Central was a household name. It was just a teenager when this pic was taken, it had a glorious future. It is hard to fathom it is no more, and so much of it's infrastructure is gone.
4-6-0s at Yorktown Heights: Ten-wheelers handled all Putnam Division trains, the peddler freight as well as passsenger trains. Most commuter trains ran only between Yorktown Heights and Sedgewick Avenue Terminal's connection to the 9th and 6th Avenue elevated trains, with a stop at High Bridge for transfer to Hudson Division MUs to and from GCT. Two trains each weekday each way ran to and from Brewster and the wye connection with the Harlem Div. there.
Wow! Great post NDG. I remember those wooden escalators in Hamilton, they made their own peculiar sound, I can still hear it, but it's difficult to describe. A powerful but rickety sound at odds with each other. Creaking and groaning but with purpose and calm certainty. They roared, not quiet. Those Eaton's models were superb. Nothing like that today, the care and the expense, man we had it good. It was a celebration not a gimmick.
Luved the article in Canada Rail about the CPR Electric Lines. We spent our summers and other holidays in Simcoe and Port Dover. What a rich environment we had. I just knew as a kid it was all to good, all too perfect, to last. You just know that somehow. For a short while, for me, we had Pere Marquette steam, Wabash steam, CNR steam, CPR steam, NYCentral steam and the Electric Lines. You could book a sleeper from the beautiful old Grand Trunk (CNR) station in Simcoe to anywhere in North America, and return, it was simple and normal to do.
All of that, every single rail, tie and spike is gone. 6 Railroads removed from the face of the earth.
I think, I know, they would give their eye teeth to have the Electric Lines back now but it would be impossible. They simply should have recognized with great certainty and clarity what they had and what they would lose.
So instead Morgan's is gone, Eaton's has vanished, Studebaker is gone, The Lake Erie and Northern is gone, the Grand River Rwy is gone as are all the CPR Electric lines, even the CASO is gone and CN and CP have left the area and now track way way North of it all, those branches hacked off. None of that makes a stick of sense to me, not at all. Something more to it all than meets the eye.
P S.
Not all customers would be going to the top floors, so Escalators would be narrower as you went up, to save cost.
Some Escalators had Electric Eye Beams at their bottoms.
When not in use, the motors would drop down to a low-idle speed, and soon as a patron broke the light beam, they would speed up.
As far as getting to Wrigley Field, the #22 Clark line and #152 Addison line (ex-Chicago Motor Coach) will take you there. However, the L is the best way to get there, with a stop on the Red Line right at Addison, only a block from the main entrance.
Some more great photos from Miningman!
Photo one, those 4-6-0's at Yorktown Heights? I'm glad David beat me to the punch commenting on those, he knows 'em better than I do. A fine sight. How long did they have to live? As far as I know NYC steam was gone in the Greater New York Area by 1954, although it did hang on a bit longer in the Midwest.
Now talk about hanging on! 7312 is definately alive and kickin' at Strasburg! If I remember correctly Linn Moedinger said 7312 was their "Old Reliable," their go-to engine when everything else was down. Linn said "It moans, it groans, it makes odd noises, but it never gives up!"
Ah, Photo 7. "Progress or downhill?" The missing turntable and roundhouse. Probably both. Many railroads found out pretty quickly, in most cases anyway, roundhouses just didn't work for diesels and had to upgrade their maintanance facilities quickly.
Wooden escalators. Man, it's been decades, but I think I remember wooden escalators at the old Packard's department store in Hackensack NJ. Emphasis on the "I think," Packards is gone now and I believe the last time I was in there I was 10 years old. I'm 66 now and some things are a bit hazy from when I was 10.
Flintlock76Now talk about hanging on! 7312 is definitely alive and kickin' at Strasburg! If I remember correctly Linn Moedinger said 7312 was their "Old Reliable," their go-to engine when everything else was down. Linn said "It moans, it groans, it makes odd noises, but it never gives up!"
For context on this, see here:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44138
There's a memory. I was good friends with Frank Packard at Knickerbocker, and his wife gave me the definitive shrimp-and-artichoke-heart recipe (don't make 6lb for dinner; you'll try to eat it all...) Strange that I don't remember escalators in that store ... was too young and not looking around carefully enough. That was still the era of hand-operated crossing gates staffed from cabins not very far away, and when I was there I'd park in Packard's parking lot but not go in. Now I wish, again, that I could drive up there and do that.
There were wooden motorstairs (as they were called there) in what remained of Penn Station when I was young -- I think some of them went down to the 7th Avenue subway. They had the memorable klunk that has been mentioned. However, they did not hold a candle to the wooden 'escalators' at South Street Station in Boston circa 1974, which as I recall slanted downward like a bunch of pallets, with a well-worn finish to the wood that provided dubious traction: one held on to the rails very carefully, almost for dear life, as you racketed upward, watching the peculiarly stiff perhaps terror-based posture of the people clinging on above you. I wondered at the time if this was some sort of technical breakage in the escalator mechanism -- it was one of those things like the continuous European elevator systems that couldn't possibly be legal in any sane society, but apparently got built anyway.
Of course, Macy's (in Herald Square) memorably kept their many wooden escalators when they renovated half a decade ago, and you can ride them there... or find them on YouTube. Here is https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/nyregion/macys-historic-wooden-escalators-survive-renovation.html]the New York Times report on it. And here is an amusing recent account with Kalmbach-appropriate content reference included.
Perhaps Peter Clark can tell us about the ones in Sydney.
Thanks for relating the stort on 7312. It's been in service since 1908, imagine that, 112 years.
I'm sure it worked around the clock during the war years '39-45. The colour picture in March 1960 shows it just hours after being removed from service. Stack not capped, everything intact. Glad it avoided the blast furnaces.
FYI.,
Interesting, that "Rypn" page on 7312. Looks like it was working in 2007, which is probably when I read that Moedinger quote. Or earlier. What can I say, it stuck!
NDG-- That's a remarkable find. How many steam locomotives scrapped California to Newfoundland-- 100,000? In a short time frame too, post war to early 60's. Along with the scrapping came other scrapping, that of the builders themselves, the knowledge, the skills, the infrastructure, the tools, and most certainly the romance, admiration and wonderment.
When steam was scrapped the public left the railroads too, first in their minds and then with their wallets. That friendly and warm association was scrapped as well.
We hang on to a few threads of it all through preservation but I wonder if following generations will have that kind of commitment as it was not part of their daily lives.
2) Updated photo of those NYC 4-6-0's with their commuter line ups in 1951. Broader, wider photo, note old passenger cars in the background probably used for MOW.
NDG. You remember them as MUs. I remember the many two-car Montreal trains as motor and trailer, not MU. Am I wrong?
Before the massive "bustitution." Dorchester Avenue was a transit-free blvd., only private cars. On St. Catherins Street, one block south, the main commercial street, at each intersection four-to-six streetcars and streetcar trains would be lined up waiting for the green. At the green, each "Guard de Moteur" (Sp) would wind up his controller, trusting that the one ahead would be doing the same thing without any mechanical and electrical problems, and so every 1-1/2 minute around 1800 people were moved across the intersection, with 76,000 people handled in one lane. Streetcars doing a subway-line's jpb. To handle the same number of people with buses, half the routes had to be shifted to Dorchester Blvd.
Montreal had MU cars used in single-ended six motor sets, four on the lead car, two on the MU "trailer". Westinghouse P-K-35-GG controllers, basically K35 controllers mounted under the car - operated by air pistons controlled by low voltage air valves. This type of control was briefly used on ex-Connecticut Company open cars at Seashore Trolley museum in the 1960s. The "trailer" cars had master controls so they could be moved independently. The MU sets were used on lines with up to 13% grades.
Mr. Drye.
Thank You for posting this information!!!
Montreal had VERY STEEP GRADES on some routes.
On Rte 65 Cote de Neiges, often the Circuit Breaker above the Motorman would ' Open ' scaring everyone and causing the car to roll back at stop light at Cedar.
Older cars prohibited that had Trolley Voltage on Controller on Front Platform, and most Work Equipments.
P.S.
I do NOT know when MOTORLESS Trailers last used?? Sorry.
Depression changed Traffic Flows.
This is for the Mod-Man and myself, just a little North Jersey "remember when?"
You folks don't have to look if you don't want to, but I bet a lot of you will!
I remembered right about those wooden escalators in Packards!
http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?topic=2573.0
NDG-- As a betting man I would have bet large that Montreal would keep its Streetcars (and Interurbans) and Toronto would have ripped up every single streetcar line. I would have lost large, still is a headshaker.
Liked your story about the Buffalo visit and the FM trio H10-44's working away ( over on String Lining).
So here is its big brother the H20-44. This one is in Avis, Pennsylvania but I think some of these were assigned to the branch that went up to Ottawa, Ontario and likely the last loco assigned to that service. It's a handsome beast, mighty long horn! Looks like a boss!
2) More NYC .. another view of X5313 that we discussed a while back. It ended up on the TH&B but here it is alongside rows of forlorn equipment.
3) Now this is a busy busy busy factory! Wonder what it sounded like with all the huffing, chuffing and whistles. Gotta luv it!
4) Ok, read 'em and weep boys. 5 New York Central complete resplendent train sets all lined up in LaSalle St. Station. How exciting to board and look forward to a great trip, good sleep, fantastic food. The Red Caps, the Porters, the no nonsense Conductor, that railroad scent that is unmistakable, the solid black steel steps and handrails... well you get the idea. All gone. All the trains, even LaSalle, even private enterprise passenger service in competiton.
Ya, ya, ya, I read 'Who Shot the Passenger Train', heard all the BS.
So get out there driving on a jam packed white knuckled highway surrounded with monster rigs galore and idiot drivers in their SUV's. Better still fight you're way to the airport, park and walk forever, pay big bucks, make sure you're 2 hours early, get frisked, poked, humiliated and scanned and sit in the runway for a long time, jammed in with nobody who wants to be friendly to you... oh and don't bring much luggage, and prepare yourself for certain misery... repeat on the other end.
Oh yeah, it's just brilliant we shunned our trains.
5) More great stations.
Boston North Station
If you don't like that you can always go to Boston South!
Louisvile and Nashville Union Station, Offices and Yards.
At least this is still standing but it's a Hotel.
A follow up to this:
Can you do this on a plane or in your car? Sitting face to face with family or a few buddies, or even interesting strangers and having a great dialogue with all. It's more condusive, more inviting, more behaved, more civilized on a train...it just is due to its very nature, setting and 'atmospheric's'.
Afterward you can go for a delightful meal all the while enjoying your surroundings and view. Try doing that in a plane!
Then you can walk around and find yourself relaxing here.
I would say this is the hallmark of a civilized society and not a brainwashed bunch of worker bee drones and ridiculous spin of Madison Ave marketing gurus lying for their masters.
We had it, had it all, wrecked it, wrecked it all. What's left is hanging on but even the railfans on these Forums are against what remains. They say it's 50's thinking, nostalgia, nonsense.
I say it's a mark of civilized society that knows the true value of wellness, calmness, a decent pace of life, excitement and the individual.
Oh man Vince, you bring up some brilliant points. That great way to travel, and now all gone. Why, indeed why?
Well, I think I have an answer, and in fact it goes back to the days of trans-oceanic travel and applies to trains as well.
While there have always been those who've travelled for pleasure, travel for most people involved something they had to do, not something they wanted to do. Whether it was for business, emigration from one part of a country to another or from one country to another travel was a burden. Ocean liners used to be furnished like floating hotels (depending on your class of course) because people didn't want to reminded they were on a ship and trains were the same, and since there was competition between carriers involved it made good business sense to make the trip as pleasureable as possible. But the big selling point was speed, speed to get you from Point A to Point B as rapidly as possible. It's why sail gave way to steam, and on land stagecoaches and canal boats gave way to railroads. Speed was the selling point. It always has been.
And then, affordable air transportation came along. Considering the tremendously shortened travel times the traveling public didn't mind being sealed in an aluminum tube and shot through the sky. And even in the beginning considering the competition the airlines tried to make the process as enjoyable as possible.
Now? Well, we can say the airlines have a monopoly on long distance travel so they don't have to try as hard to get the business. Paranoia over terrorism has made the process even more of a hassle. (Do you think any terrorist is going to try and hijack an airliner anymore? Seriously? They'd be torn apart by enraged passengers, no-ones just going to sit in their seats anymore and just take it. The authorities would pick up what's left of Mr. Terrorist in a Glad bag!) Short-distance travel, you might as well drive. The airlines don't want that business (most of 'em anyway) and Amtrak can't figure out how to get it.
Maybe that old world will come back if enough people are interested enough, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Times change, not necessarily for the better.
And if teleportation (Beam me up Scotty!) ever becomes a reality, kiss the airlines goodby.
Ah well, as Dr. Suess once said, "Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened!"
PS: Slight correction, stagecoaches are still around, but instead of saying "Wells Fargo" on the side now they say "Greyhound" or "Megabus." But jeez, who wants to travel by bus? Not me!
The real thing that shot the postwar passenger train in the foot was really the ICC order of 1947 that took away the prewar 'ability' to run as fast as modern power could be made to go with shiny lightweight consists. Associated with this was the Chessie experiment: trains designed almost without regard to cost or operating expense, featuring a wide range of sometimes-quirky luxuries to make the trip attractive. And then the bottom fell out of the market ... not so much for the idea of the trains, but for the colossal level of support and service that was required just to run them as commodities.
An airplane flies where it's going, and turns around with pax for the return. It can easily divert to serve other areas ... or not ... and can easily be sent on a different route altogether if needed; in fact, it can cover several routes easily depending only on demand for the cost of little more than a set of Jeppson plates.
Meanwhile, the train is tugging around somewhere north of six tons per passenger, not including things like fabulously unprofitable diners and multiple attendants per car. And you need more than one train to hold down even daily service to most significant markets ... even though your revenue per day is that of only one. All this surplus capacity had to be paid for up front, and kept maintained ... and stocked ... and cleaned.
And then banged over increasingly dubious track quality. When there was no option but sleeping as the train rushed through the night, the acceptability of the resulting 'sensations' was one thing; once there was the option of a non-moving bed, it's not surprising that only the high-end solutions kept being patronized ... and even those, not so much.
Right into this comes the Government enforcement effort after the antitrust decision, which takes Pullman as a quality-control company right out of overnight sleeper operation at a stroke and replaces it with some railroad-led expediency. A sad thing here is that the Government knew, very thoroughly, in advance how it expected the Pullman Company to behave, even so much as to hint more than once that the deleterious enforcement oversight would apply to Pullman if they, ahem, ahem, chose the passenger business over the carbuilding one...
Again, the place and thing to watch was the Broadway after 1958, when the Century put on coaches and dropped the overall standard and Beebe went to the PRR. If anything could have saved the real streamlined luxury passenger train, that would have been it. You can read for yourself how that panned out.
There are other things, one of which was the industrial style from the late '30s onward. Even when this incorporated very expensive materials and handmade art, as in the original Super Chief trains ... it looked cheap and relatively spartan. We won't go into what happened when the trim actually became cheap and spartan in the mid-Fifties.
And then no operating subsidies for the Government-funded competition, and taking away the mail contracts ... and not at all least, long failure to repeal the 10% expedient 'war tax' that nobody else was paying...
Flintlock76Maybe that old world will come back if enough people are interested enough, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Times change, not necessarily for the better.
Not until we get rid of these:
and start using these:
Overmod-- Except for the Chessie part the rest of the story as you relate sounds conspiratorial. I have no doubts that politicians and friends in high places were well placed and served by highway contractors, the aviation industry, GM and big auto, oil and gas, and so forth.
Also swept up by starry eyed visions of some brave new modern metropolis, atomic age goofiness, and a vast coast to coast public being steadily fed all that Mad Men tidal wave of ' how good its going to be '.
Society was turned against passenger trains and some of the railroads actually welcomed this. Eventually they all did.
But!... just look at that pic of the NY Central trains lined up at LaSalle... thats when we all had something to build on and not tear down and we knew what we were doing. Society accepted that loss but it could have been encouraged and advanced instead.
A while back on the passenger thread a posting featured a new train and service in Japan that is exactly what the New York Central 20th Century could be today. It exists today, just not here. I suppose VIA's high end service is around but that's a crazy high cost.
We had it in our grasp but lost it. It did not need to be that way.
Klingon bartenders? Well if you're running a biker bar I guess that's one way to keep the patrons in line!
No, wait a minute, a cashless society? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Remember what the late, great Mike Royko once said...
"A cashless society? It'll never happen. Why? Three little words...
Off the books."
Miningman, count me in with you about how we (western society?) had it all (especially transportation-wise) and then either lost it or threw it away.
But as I looked at those small pics you posted showing comfy train interiors (e.g. facing seats in compartments) including the couple dining in a dome car and the seats in the Hiawatha lounge car, all I could think was this: Even if we had it all back, wouldn't every seat today be filled by people looking at their phones? Or wearing headphones or ear buds? And recall, when I brought up the pleasantries of having a meal in a dining car with a perfect stranger or two, that replies were aggressive as to how millenials despise such intercourse.
And notice how the couple is dressed. Imagine those cars filled with people dressed as we do today. But truthfully, I don't want to have to wear a suit for 13 hours aboard the Lake Shore Limited, either.
Why did we lose it? I agree with much of your analysis. Yet in the end we're all to blame, usually in small ways.
About 12 years ago I had a discussion with a young teacher regarding school disipline and classroom management, and how "things got this way." I replied, It didn't get this way overnight. Like the frog in the boiling pot, we got used to what we were losing one day at a time.
A hymn we used to sing (lost it, too?) entitled "Once to every man and nation," contains this sublimity: "New ocassions teach new duties, Time makes ancient good uncouth." Or as Judy Blume put it so well: "That was then; this is now."
But if 1965 ever returns, I'm ready.
Overmod The real thing that shot the postwar passenger train in the foot was really the ICC order of 1947 that took away the prewar 'ability' to run as fast as modern power could be made to go with shiny lightweight consists.
The real thing that shot the postwar passenger train in the foot was really the ICC order of 1947 that took away the prewar 'ability' to run as fast as modern power could be made to go with shiny lightweight consists.
Is this also the reason why diesel engine manufacturers and RRs seldom emphasize the top speed of the postwar diesel-powered trains? I read EMD E7 could hit 110mph+, 106mph for FM Erie-Built. Not sure about EMD E8 and E9, probably rated at 79mph...
Overmod There are other things, one of which was the industrial style from the late '30s onward. Even when this incorporated very expensive materials and handmade art, as in the original Super Chief trains ... it looked cheap and relatively spartan. We won't go into what happened when the trim actually became cheap and spartan in the mid-Fifties.
I couldn't agree more. The styling of classy and beautiful things from the 1920s, progressionally (and professionally) transformed into a brutal and ugly form for the sake of innovation and competition. It was hard to believe that PRR's P85b was designed by Raymond Loewy, and these school-bus looking luxury "streamlined" coaches replaced the original P70 betterments cars... This is the first example that came to my mind. Who would have thought that in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the Futurama, I can hardly find a good looking computer keyboard, a device that I have to use every single day... just like fountain pens.
NKP guy-- Thanks for your well thought out reply.
I very recently read a report submitted as an assignment by an 11 year old. He travelled with his Dad from New York to Chicago and back and a side trip up to Milwaukee via different routes and railroads. This was in 1962.
I'm thinking 1962, into the first half of '63 the railroads were still operating in the traditional manner of passenger service and had not quite yet given up on things, especially in the East. Things had changed but they were holding on and service was kept to a high standard.
Seems to me that after '63 it was all a downhill unstoppable spiral as far as pride in passenger service went, again predominantly in the East but out West as well on a number of roads.
It was, as you say, not overnight exactly but a day to day erosion.
Miningman ...Seems to me that after '63 it was all a downhill unstoppable spiral as far as pride in passenger service went, again predominantly in the East but out West as well on a number of roads. It was, as you say, not overnight exactly but a day to day erosion.
...Seems to me that after '63 it was all a downhill unstoppable spiral as far as pride in passenger service went, again predominantly in the East but out West as well on a number of roads.
Meanwhile, in Japan, the _____ were building something like this:
1) Now this is the poster boy for what a traffic jam is. I can't even count all the Streetcars. No wonder they invented traffic lights.
2) Big honkin express/passenger train. One Hudson, no problem, stretches back as far as you can see. Diesels would require multiples of expensive locomotives for this consist. No doubt someone will tell me that's better but you can't fool an old horse fly.
3) Buffalo Central Terminal .. honoured in a stamp at the time.. very nice!
4) I think this is in Troy NY from what I remember but I could be wrong.
Sorry for the small image.
4) Another small image. Anyone know where this is, it seems quite distinctive.
5) Cab Forwards lined up waiting the call to action. Taylor Roundhouse.
6) One last look at the NYC Elevated line. What a mess, unused, forlorn and neglected.
Jones1945Is this also the reason why diesel engine manufacturers and RRs seldom emphasize the top speed of the postwar diesel-powered trains? I read EMD E7 could hit 110mph+, 106mph for FM Erie-Built. Not sure about EMD E8 and E9, probably rated at 79mph...
Any diesel-electric will go as fast as its motors are geared for, and it has the horsepower to overcome the resistance of. As I recall the New Haven DL-109s were geared for "120mph" but they didn't have much real chance of operating that fast with a train. You could get E units with different ratios, each with a corresponding 'speed' (you will find these in the literature; a common E-unit speed worked out to 92mph) and of course there was the typical tradeoff with taller gears reducing effective tractive effort but allowing the motors to spin slower (and induce less back EMF) for a given speed.
Not all locomotives were given the final stages of field weakening in transition, either. You may recall the brief (and it was very brief) experiment with field-weakening coils applied to the Electroliner, resulting in 108mph on what I recall to be 28" wheels. In the story I heard, someone was ordered under the cars to torch off the coils then and there, no shop delays or temptations to be tolerated...
Meanwhile, what was permissible with the gearing was not always particularly achieved. The N&W TE-1 was a case in point: Baldwin apparently led the N&W to believe that the thing would run 65mph with a full trainload, which of course it never would. Louis Newton had some choice comments on this.
It is sometimes fun, if a bit regrettable, to watch railfans speculate on 'how fast' things could go -- perhaps the most outre being a docent at a certain railroad museum claiming the top speed of a GG1 was 156mph, but not far behind being the Stan Repp claims (in his early Super Chief book) that regular speeds of 150mph were regularly broken by the early ATSF locomotives. (He even provides the method by which engine crews supposedly avoided having the speed recorder 'tape' the overspeed, in case you were predisposed to scoff...)
Miningman 4) I think this is in Troy NY from what I remember but I could be wrong. Sorry for the small image. 4) Another small image. Anyone know where this is, it seems quite distinctive.
Yes that is Troy, NY from the North along the single track D&H. I think the second small photo might also be Troy from the south along the double track NYC. In both photos if you look in the distance, you can just see the tower that was located over the track at the south throat of the Union Station trackage.
Well thank you Midland Mike! Nice to know my memory isn't all that shot after all. Makes me feel good!
Jones1945Meanwhile, in Japan, the _____ were building something like this:
Perhaps the Poms can be forgiven; Singapore was still less than a quarter century ago for them then.
Old Man Thunder certainly figured out how to finance the supertrains, which was really the most important detail here.
Overmod ...It is sometimes fun, if a bit regrettable, to watch railfans speculate on 'how fast' things could go -- perhaps the most outre being a docent at a certain railroad museum claiming the top speed of a GG1 was 156mph, but not far behind being the Stan Repp claims (in his early Super Chief book) that regular speeds of 150mph were regularly broken by the early ATSF locomotives. (He even provides the method by which engine crews supposedly avoided having the speed recorder 'tape' the overspeed, in case you were predisposed to scoff...)
...It is sometimes fun, if a bit regrettable, to watch railfans speculate on 'how fast' things could go -- perhaps the most outre being a docent at a certain railroad museum claiming the top speed of a GG1 was 156mph, but not far behind being the Stan Repp claims (in his early Super Chief book) that regular speeds of 150mph were regularly broken by the early ATSF locomotives. (He even provides the method by which engine crews supposedly avoided having the speed recorder 'tape' the overspeed, in case you were predisposed to scoff...)
Regular speeds of 150mph (241.4kph) were regularly broken... The engine crews regularly played a trick that would have cost their career and life regularly... Too "good" to be true! If the figure was 105mph instead of 150mph, it would sound more convincing...
Railfans speculating on "How fast?" is certainly fun. Regrettable? I don't think so, just harmless giggles.
It's kind of like naval history buffs speculating on match-ups that never happened like HMS Victory vs. USS Constitution, USS Iowa vs. KM Bismarck, or USS New Jersey vs. IJN Yamato. Or even HMS Hood vs. KM Graf Spee.
Have to leave that stuff to "World of Warships," which I don't play or have any interest in.
Miningman1) Now this is the poster boy for what a traffic jam is. I can't even count all the Streetcars. No wonder they invented traffic lights.
Chicago on a good day not long after the cables were converted to electricity. Note the "Big Pullman" on the left turning onto what is either Dearborn or State. The dark Chicago Rys scheme on the Pullman and the primitive Elston Ave. car put this in late Chicago Rys, or early Chicago Union Traction days.
Chicago Surface Lines contributed a great deal to the developent of traffic lights in the 1920s, precisely to untangle scenes like this.
Flintlock76 Railfans speculating on "How fast?" is certainly fun. Regrettable? I don't think so, just harmless giggles. It's kind of like naval history buffs speculating on match-ups that never happened like HMS Victory vs. USS Constitution, USS Iowa vs. KM Bismarck, or USS New Jersey vs. IJN Yamato. Or even HMS Hood vs. KM Graf Spee. Have to leave that stuff to "World of Warships," which I don't play or have any interest in.
I want to see the proposed British RN N3 vs. KM Bismarck, too bad that "World of Warships" is just a "free" computer game for entertainment, not a simulator that could render how ships would get damaged in real-life battle through computer graphics. There is no N3 or G3 in the game at the moment but the game has the canceled Lion-class with 4X3 18" guns as a tier 10 ships, named Conqueror...
I want to see the proposed British RN N3 vs. KM Bismarck
I'd be happy with King George V replacing Hood with all else the same.
The illustration above seems to imply a ship with three twin turrets, not triple turrets...
rcdrye Miningman 1) Now this is the poster boy for what a traffic jam is. I can't even count all the Streetcars. No wonder they invented traffic lights. Chicago on a good day not long after the cables were converted to electricity. Note the "Big Pullman" on the left turning onto what is either Dearborn or State. The dark Chicago Rys scheme on the Pullman and the primitive Elston Ave. car put this in late Chicago Rys, or early Chicago Union Traction days. Chicago Surface Lines contributed a great deal to the developent of traffic lights in the 1920s, precisely to untangle scenes like this.
Miningman 1) Now this is the poster boy for what a traffic jam is. I can't even count all the Streetcars. No wonder they invented traffic lights.
M636C I want to see the proposed British RN N3 vs. KM Bismarck I'd be happy with King George V replacing Hood with all else the same. The illustration above seems to imply a ship with three twin turrets, not triple turrets... Peter
Thanks for pointing this out! Yes, the Conqueror in the game has 4X3 18" guns instead of 3X3. Another similar ship Thunderer has 4X2 18" guns.
Flintlock76 Or even HMS Hood vs. KM Graf Spee.
Or even HMS Hood vs. KM Graf Spee.
It would probably turn out like the Battle of the Falkland Islands in WW1.
CSSHEGEWISCH Flintlock76 Or even HMS Hood vs. KM Graf Spee. It would probably turn out like the Battle of the Falkland Islands in WW1.
More than likely, unless Graf Spee could get in a lucky hit, otherwise it would have been no contest.
18" guns on the proposed HMS Conqueror? I don't know, both the RN and the US Navy experimented with 18" guns prior to WW2 and didn't find any substantial improvement in performance over 16" guns so they didn't pursue the matter any further, but what the hell, "WOW" is all fantasy anyway.
I luv this picture of the Pennsy Q2. Its one of those pictures that you could swear you were there to see this.
It's remarkablely and notably disturbing just how short their working lives were. Such an outstanding and impressive piece of machinery, a pinnacle of steam engineering, something new and exciting, the future, only to be scrapped unceremoniously in a few brief years of service.
Not because they were flawed, or failures, poor design, a joke piece of junk, but because they weren't wanted any more. You see, they, the Pennsylvania Railroad 'changed their minds'.
Seems they changed their minds about a lot things until all that sheer feckless behaviour caught up to them and they were annihilated off the planet. Their bones and remains scattered and shattered, from the Standard Railroad of the World to ridicule and then faint remembrance.
Miningman I luv this picture of the Pennsy Q2. Its one of those pictures that you could swear you were there to see this. It's remarkablely and notably disturbing just how short their working lives were. Such an outstanding and impressive piece of machinery, a pinnacle of steam engineering, something new and exciting, the future, only to be scrapped unceremoniously in a few brief years of service. Not because they were flawed, or failures, poor design, a joke piece of junk, but because they weren't wanted any more. You see, they, the Pennsylvania Railroad 'changed their minds'. Seems they changed their minds about a lot things until all that sheer feckless behaviour caught up to them and they were annihilated off the planet. Their bones and remains scattered and shattered, from the Standard Railroad of the World to ridicule and then faint remembrance.
Retouched a little bit. Q2 is my favorite freight steam engine. They were powerful, good looking, semi streamlined, designed and constructed by Pennsy. I won't complain if they and the fleet of T1 were allowed to serve until 1960s... Steam engines in America were so heavy that they couldn't find a 2nd home outside the States. Imagine if India's railway system could handle these heavy steam engines, and Pennsy willing to sell them at a very good price, they would have had an even more colorful new life in their new home...
That machine was formidable-looking, no doubt about it! No-nonsense, all "Accomplish the mission at all costs!" PRR.
Yeah, no doubt about that at all. Overmod has termed it the "win the war now locomotive" which is likely true BUT the whole duplex drive thing was very much Pennsys direction and future. Yes, as Jones states " designed and built by Pennsy themselves". Also why is the need for a high speed freight or express locomotive no longer required? I suppose Nickel Plate and NYC didn't get the message, not to mention Union Pacific and Sante Fe, mind you different cookie there, but speed was # 1 with them.
I've said my piece about Pennsy several times. Something was very rotten, a successful attempt at undermining spurred on by outside forces and a compliant wink wink management, gotta jump on the bandwagon. Perfectly good, successful and new locomotives scrapped and all that expertise and money just burned and destroyed.
Pennsy could have flexed their political muscle far more than they did and stuck to their guns, do what they do, expose stuff, wage court battles, round up allies, go against the grain, pressure this and that, fight the corruption and the weasels. Get the employees and grandma on side with it all. Wage economic warfare to the highest levels. Send a big $bill, demanding payment, withholding against taxes, to the State and Feds over commuter services. Appeal to patriotism, their effort was crucial to winning the war.
Instead they blew their war profits on poorly designed Diesels and got into debt on the easy peasey payment plan with the company that wanted them as weak as possible, a true enemy. They just played along and slowly bled to death. (No it wasn't China), it was GM.
The Standard Railroad of the World did not even try to live up to its name. They became a little squeaky mouse. What little soul they had left disppeared permanently when they tore down Pennsylvania Station. Unimaginable. They lost the war by that point anyway.
If only the Duplexes had been developed 20 years earlier, then they would have found a great home on fast transcontinental mail & express trains or priority freights, in an era when they would have been the fastest thing on wheels.
PRR management let that whole 'Standard Railroad of the World' thing go to their heads. They got complacent and thought they were too big to fail, well before that phrase came into the popular lexicon. When the world changed they had no idea what to do, and fell into denial instead of really trying to survive, modernize and thrive.
What Perlman did at New York Central was harsh, but he kept that railroad on its feet. NYC probably could have survived on its own had the disastrous Penn Central merger not happened, but I guess we'll never really know.
It also looks like a pic that was taken by a roundhouse foreman to settle an argument.
"SEE!?! I TOLD you it would fit in the roundhouse!"
Could be Penny, could be. Thinking this is at Crestline, but not 100% sure.
Try this conversation or How the Pennsy went bust.
Pres. of the PRR-- " Ahhh, one of those Q2's, won the war for us, and they are still nearly new! What a great locomotive! The future looks bright for us!"
Head of Motive Power-- " Well sir we are scrapping them"
Pres.--" Whaaat? Explain yourself"
Head of Motive Power-- " Diesels sir, Diesels... they're better. Cost a bit more but well worth it"
Pres.-- " How much more ?"
Head of Motive Power--"Well about three times the cost, each, and .. ummm, we need four of them to replace one Q2"
Pres.-- " Hmmm... twelve times the cost to replace each nearly new Q2..... good job! Well done! "
A likely scenario!
Miningman, I sent you a PM.
York1 John
MiningmanBUT the whole duplex drive thing was very much Pennsy's direction and future.
No.
For a while they thought it was, but the bloom came off that rose very quickly.
First they get cozened out of north of $3 million in Depression-era gold-backed dollars by Baldwin, getting a grand-looking engine that never quite did what it should. Then they work really hard making the answer to a whole bunch of questions that weren't asked right, in the Q1... look how far that design's details wound up in later practice. Then the Q2s, grand for running 150-car trains at high speed on a railroad ... largely devoted to mineral traffic (only 13.5% 'merchandise' in 1946, said Trains at the time, in the 100th PRR Anniversary issue) and possessed of a hard 50mph speed limit. Then 50 T1s, and we all know the shuckin' and jivin' that went on with them as early as 1948.
The wave of the future was in the noncondensing turbines, first the S2 and then the various flavors of V1. And even those went to the curb (in the case of the V1 without even having a prototype built, although the 1944 version would likely have been something of an operational failure) when F7s did everything better and ran across 5 divisions without trouble, too.
PRR along with many other railroads 'lost the peace' in many, many ways; I think they expected along with most others that the newer, better streamliner revolution would surely bring the clientele back as it did in the late Thirties. But it wasn't going to be steam doing any of the really fast work; look how quickly Milwaukee shucked the As and Fs once it had even relatively conservative diesels ... and how quickly those things went to the dogs, much like GG1s did, when no longer actively maintained...
GM was no overt enemy of PRR or any other railroad; they were not just 'opportunists' but followed the Sloan game plan to enter and win the motive-power wars. And no company did it better, or more successfully, than they did. Note that GM did not get into the aviation business, even as a bit player, which would surely be a tactic if they intended to promulgate a "NCL" model to destroy part of an industry. Just because they'd sell more trucks than locomotives doesn't mean they were actively lobbying against railroads ... just for more free roads. Consumers did the rest... admittedly, hornswoggled by Insolent Chariots social engineering and marketing, but not as a conspiracy to ruin railroads.
My take on PRR coming apart is more rooted in hidebound Philadelphia arrogance, and refusal to understand how things were changing. They got all the way through formalizing the legalities of the merger without determining their dispatch and computer systems were not only howlingly primitive but utterly incompatible. Then threw out Perlman and all his wise practices in favor of ... well, it's a little hard to figure out what the priority was going to be.
Everything I read when I was young essentially said NYC didn't have much of a pot to piss in after Young shot himself, and just got worse and worse to the point PRR was supposed to stop the shoestringing. Come to find PRR had not much of a pot either, and some decidedly poor ways to aim the streams.
They still had soul in the Sixties; it just wasn't enough to carry them in the grand manner to which they had become expected. Had they fought for deregulation then... oh wait, they wouldn't. They'd have to appeal to the wrong sort of politicians anyway, who wouldn't give the arrogant Pennsylvania anything but a bigger tax bill to please actually voting constituencies.
I almost can't imagine how bad it would have been if they'd engaged in the amount of indebtedness involved in the Sam Rea line, shortcuts in New Jersey, and faster line bypassing Pittsburgh for the passenger trains -- only to find that even nine-hour trains to Chicago wouldn't sell. Heck, they shucked the Atglen and Susquehanna and there were far more reasons to retain that than a high-maintenance bridge line largely in tunnels through low-inhabited nonindustrial parts of Pennsylvania.
Frimbo basically had the word on how the government paid PRR, and most other railroads, back after WWII: they couldn't even be bothered to lift the 10% 'war tax' long after there was no war to gouge the railroads over. I have not forgotten the clever little scam with the 'land grant' mileage, either.
Overmod Frimbo basically had the word on how the government paid PRR, and most other railroads, back after WWII: they couldn't even be bothered to lift the 10% 'war tax' long after there was no war to gouge the railroads over. I have not forgotten the clever little scam with the 'land grant' mileage, either.
That deal sounds about as square as the one Roscoe Arbuckle got.
Well thank you for the reply Overmod. It is an historical account and quite accurate with the facts as selected.
My fictional conversation between the President of the PRR and the Head of Motive Power staring at the Q2 live, as it is in the photograph, captures the 'essence' of what I think was going on.
I hardly think that the Pennsy or the Central with their history and important real estate holdings, their credibility and power in society, their ability to tap into the very being of the USA, not to mention an army of blue chip lawyers, and probably some pretty darn good Saul Goodman shady types made them helpless dupes.
Maybe they had to play hardball, even dirty hardball, and not turn their back on what they were, recognize what they have, appreciate and draw strength from the roundhouse and their 100 years acquired expertise and stuck with what they do best and fight on.
As an armchair quarterback ..what did they have to lose?
By the time those scrapyard brothers got around to torching the T1's in maybe '56-'57 those expensive first generation Diesels Pennsy was in such a rush to get were right behind them. Double down loss.
The steam was perfectly fine and could have lasted to 1970, but of course that's not what happened and they betrayed and scorned themselves.
Just a dreamer and a romantic trying to see it another way.
Note that GM did not get into the aviation business, even as a bit player, which would surely be a tactic if they intended to promulgate a "NCL" model to destroy part of an industry.
GM were a big supplier to the aviation industry.
Allison supplied most of the engines for USAAF fighter aircraft (P-39, P-40) until the Rolls Royce Merlin was built under licence by Packard.
Post war, Allison turboprops powered the hundreds of C-130s and P-3 Orions (and a few commercial Electras).
They still supply the engines for the Marines' V-22, although Rolls Royce own Allison and Detroit Diesel now. This ownership is the result of GM going the same way as the PRR.
I don't know if this is Crestline - if I'm not mistaken the picture is taken right in front of an 'extended' stall of the kind built for the S1, but as of 1942 Crestline didn't have such a stall in that location:
http://www.crestlineprr.com/trackchart.jpg
Could it have been Fort Wayne?
MiningmanTry this conversation or How the Pennsy went bust. Pres. of the PRR-- " Ahhh, one of those Q2's, won the war for us, and they are still nearly new! What a great locomotive! The future looks bright for us!" Head of Motive Power-- "Well sir we are scrapping them" Pres.--" Whaaat? Explain yourself" Head of Motive Power-- "Well, they cost much more to operate than our J1 2-10-4s, and there is very little operational performance difference, or maintenance saved through use of the duplex principle, at the speed we run freight. We didn't specify the antislip gear correctly, either, and it turns out many of our men have trouble operating our duplex locomotives with front-end throttles correctly without that device working. Their water rate is through the roof -- not as bad as the turbines, but we can only carry enough even in our largest tenders for about 150 miles over the road." We're also looking at Diesels sir, Diesels... they're better. Cost a bit more but well worth it. Our major locomotive builders say it's the way of the future. We can get most of the advantage of our 1943 plan to electrify the railroad from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh without the expense. And we don't have to put in turntables or long wyes to turn them. And it looks like the cost of maintenance and supply of steam locomotives is going through the roof, much more than catering to our online coal producers can save." Pres.-- "How much more are these Diesels?" Head of Motive Power--"Well about three times the first cost, for equivalent horsepower; but they do things a Q2 won't like start any train they can pull, so we only need four of them to replace one 8000hp Q2 or V1. And this guy Dilworth points out we can use the individual units into smaller sets to suit train size, so since we no longer have wartime loads to justify 7500 horsepower per train this looks particularly useful to us going forward." Pres.-- " Hmmm... twelve times the cost to replace each nearly new Q2... that hurts, but look what we save in infrastructure, maintenance and idle-time cost over the years, if the builders are telling us the truth about Diesel reliability and in-service availability ... and maybe we can get some of our money back on the duplexes by making them out to be dogs ... good job! Well done!"
Head of Motive Power-- "Well sir we are scrapping them"
Head of Motive Power-- "Well, they cost much more to operate than our J1 2-10-4s, and there is very little operational performance difference, or maintenance saved through use of the duplex principle, at the speed we run freight. We didn't specify the antislip gear correctly, either, and it turns out many of our men have trouble operating our duplex locomotives with front-end throttles correctly without that device working. Their water rate is through the roof -- not as bad as the turbines, but we can only carry enough even in our largest tenders for about 150 miles over the road."
We're also looking at Diesels sir, Diesels... they're better. Cost a bit more but well worth it. Our major locomotive builders say it's the way of the future. We can get most of the advantage of our 1943 plan to electrify the railroad from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh without the expense. And we don't have to put in turntables or long wyes to turn them. And it looks like the cost of maintenance and supply of steam locomotives is going through the roof, much more than catering to our online coal producers can save."
Pres.-- "How much more are these Diesels?"
Head of Motive Power--"Well about three times the first cost, for equivalent horsepower; but they do things a Q2 won't like start any train they can pull, so we only need four of them to replace one 8000hp Q2 or V1. And this guy Dilworth points out we can use the individual units into smaller sets to suit train size, so since we no longer have wartime loads to justify 7500 horsepower per train this looks particularly useful to us going forward."
Pres.-- " Hmmm... twelve times the cost to replace each nearly new Q2... that hurts, but look what we save in infrastructure, maintenance and idle-time cost over the years, if the builders are telling us the truth about Diesel reliability and in-service availability ... and maybe we can get some of our money back on the duplexes by making them out to be dogs ... good job! Well done!"
It might also be mentioned that fixing the Q2 slip control to the extent of providing active traction control through a split independent brake neatly gets around many of the issues with putting the power to the ground, certainlly better than the bang-bang design of butterfly valve in superheated steam that got built. There was no problem with the frankly fascinating computer that did the slip assessment and correction, only with the (crude) mechanism tinkering with the steam flow -- problem was that it was designed only as an emergency device, like penalty-brake systems in '20s ATC, so no continuous operation or sophistication in steam modulation was involved ... for all the trouble and expense, and at least in 20/20 hindsight the utter necessity, of providing autonomic slip control on high-power duplexes run near the limits of their capacity.
I won't go into the disaster that was their boilers as built, except to note that while welded boilers would have fixed the problems even more expediently than it did on 'certain other roads', neither PRR nor Baldwin had invested (as Alco did) in the necessary technology to make them right, and that's a big and complex boiler to have to fabricate. If they had shared follow-on use of the boiler with other projects -- notably with N&W and Lehigh Valley, and on the second-generation mechanical turbines -- there might have been something in it. But if you're going to higher and higher technology to get locomotives to run on the cheapest coal without training your people how to benefit from all the wizardry ... expect to be leveraged out very fast when the cost of your 'cheapness' goes west in the postwar economy while you are constrained to run the thing to its full appetite in a world that no longer monetarily values what it does for all that expense.
I should have been more specific with respect to GM in aviation that I meant actual airplanes -- as with GM building automobiles and not just components for 'assembled cars' elsewhere, or making locomotives at EMC and not just powerplants via Winton/Cleveland for 'serious' locomotive builders of the day. And it's not as if GM didn't try building aircraft -- just that I, and you, and probably anyone else, would really rather forget what happened when they did...
Ah me, the death of steam, the death of the PRR, the death of the NYC.
"The head understands, but the heart never will."
Maybe railroad empires are like other empires, or "...players who strut and fret their hour upon the stage, then are seen no more."
Wasn't Bill Shakespeare a genius?
MiningmanMaybe they had to play hardball, even dirty hardball, and not turn their back on what they were, recognize what they have, appreciate and draw strength from the roundhouse and their 100 years acquired expertise and stuck with what they do best and fight on.
On Wall Street, 100 years of success means nothing the minute you start loosing money.
Of Ferries and Barges, Street Running, more Missouri Pacific stuff, and things straight from Hades!
1) SS Ann Arbor #5 ... capacity 30 cars. Busy place.
2) Southern Pacific ferry barge the 'Mastodon' with passenger train crossing the Mississippi at New Orleans.
3) Fifth St. Layfayette, Indiana. The Monon is the Big Man on Campus!
4) Monroe St. Passaic, New Jersey.
5) The Erie running downtown in Passaic, NJ. For our Erie and Jersey fans of which I know there are at least 2 here!
6) Almost the Missouri Pacific, sort of. National Railways of Mexico FP4A with the Aztec Eagle , Mexico City to Nuevo Laredo near the border with Laredo, Texas.
7) Missouri Pacific Baby Face Baldwin.
8) MoPacs passenger trains had a very pleasing colour scheme. Exquisite!
9) The Chessie Turbine looks like it just arrived from Hades! Or the Twilight Zone. In any case pretty dramatic photo. Also look at all the 'hats' hanging around. Methinks something went wrong .... as usual.
10) Is it just me or does that Proctor and Gamble locomotive have a really large bell. Plenty of room to swing it too!
Miningman6) Almost the Missouri Pacific, sort of. National Railways of Mexico PA with the Aztec Eagle , Mexico City to Nuevo Laredo near the border with Laredo, Texas.
Almost the Continental... NdeM had FPA4s, just like CN. The PAs came a lot later.
Who cares about the bell?
What on earth is the locomotive?
It appears to have Blunt trucks suggesting it started life as an Alco S1 or S3. It has an EMD hood, so it must have been re-engined with an EMD at some time. It has a non standard low clearance cab. But look at that exhaust stack just near the radiator grille. This unit must have been re-engined a second time with a small Caterpillar or Cummins engine.
rcdrye-- Ok thanks! Sure had me fooled. An FP4A it is! Went too fast and didn't look at the trucks..again! Clearly B-B.
M636c-- research time!! See what I can dig up !
Under whose cat wire is the Chessie turbine running? PRR near Washington?
Ah yes, the old Erie mainline through Passaic NJ. It lasted up to around 1960 or so, then instead of a convenience for train riders it became a royal PITA, so it was re-routed outside of the downtown area.
But at the time it sure was dramatic, wasn't it?
Monroe Street in Passaic? That's the Erie's old Dundee (industrial) Spur, abandoned for good in 2019 after the last customer left.
Miningman 3) Fifth St. Layfayette, Indiana. The Monon is the Big Man on Campus!
My son, the Purdue freshman, thinks he knows where that picture was taken. I crossed Fifth street several times last October when my wife and were visiting him. FWIW, Purdue is across the river in West Lafayette.
Flintlock-- Yes! ...the photo caption called the train 'The Dundee' I didn't include it in the description.
Midland Mike-- Not sure where, no help from the photo, just a date 1948. Someone here will know.
M636-- No help from the photo. Still searching
Erik_Mag-- Always cool when you know the exact location and you've been there recognized from a photo years later!
M636C---, This is what I could find.
It served in Port Ivory, Staten Island, until 1991.
It was called The Mutt. Had no number.
It had an Alco frame with Blunt trucks, from a S1 or S3.
It was built by Chattahoochie Locomotives in Conyers, Georgia
M636CWhat on earth is the locomotive?
If I'm not mistaken, we had a fairly recent thread involving either this locomotive or one very like it -- now painted white, and in some danger of being scrapped. Perhaps this jogs someone's better memory.
Erik_Mag and all-- Another pic of Fifth St. Layfayette, Indiana but this time back in the day with steam. That must have been quite the sight.
Crew has the smoke under control.
Amazing what is to be found out there.
1) Last train on Division St. in Evansville, Indiana. July 31, 1973.
Four car L&N consist , aboard the Mayor and other city officials. Street running replaced by a new by pass.
2) Union Pacific M-10000 .. in Buffalo of all places. Sure got around!
3) Now where oh where is my engine? Very busy! A scene we are lucky to have captured on film as we will never see the sights of this again.
4) South Goa, India. Train crosses over incredible waterfall.
5) Those were the days. Sandusky passengers could transfer to steamers on Lake Erie. Something Overmod has lamented is gone now.
6) St. Petersburg Florida 1954. Passenger trains ran through the streets of St. Petersburg causing massive traffic jams! I don't even see any gates!
7) Juniata Scale - Weigh Instruments
Miningman5) Those were the days. Sandusky passengers could transfer to steamers on Lake Erie. Something Overmod has lamented is gone now.
A closer look.
Looking the other way:
This was the pier at the park:
+
Non postcard version:
I like this one:
This one's great too:
The pier was destroyed when on June 28, 1924 a massive tornado tore through Sandusky.
This is the "new pier" built after.
Some of the regular steamers. The A Wherle Jr:
The Arrow:
The Goodtime:
And the Eastland:
Oh wow, steam trains, steam ships, what a fun way to get around!
The sun, the sky, and a whiff of coal smoke to round it all off.
That's the spirit Penny! Can't beat Lake Erie on both sides! I can smell the fries and malt vinegar right through the computer...... And all the glorious places to dine in splendour. CASO on the other side and a host of Electric Lines. A very rich fulfilling life.
Was worried I wasn't going to get a single comment so thanks for that too Penny. Lordy I miss Lake Erie in the summer, actually any time.
Celery bread here I come!
Were those boats coming from Sandusky, or were they coming from places like Cleveland, or maybe other places?
You can still go from Sandusky to Point Pelee, Ontario.
http://www.ontarioferries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Complete-2018-Pelee-Island-Sailing-Schedule.pdf
Recall taking a ferry from a slip West of downtown Sandusky to Put-in-Bay on a vacation in 1972.
The pier was also served by Lake Shore Electric! The spur ended just short of the pier. Interline service from Mansfield was offered from 1909-1912, and through trains from Cleveland and Detroit brought passengers as well, with summer excursion trains common until the 1930s.
Well this led to something I never saw before! Check this out:
The photo description reads:
MidlandMike Were those boats coming from Sandusky, or were they coming from places like Cleveland, or maybe other places?
Cleveland to Cedar Point was a very popular run for the lake steamers.
Of course Detroit, Toledo, Buffalo and other points sent a lot of tourist traffic to Cedar Point by lake steamer.
I couldn't find a good pic of a steamer docked at the Euclid Beach Park pier, this is in fact the ONLY one I found:
So here's Glenn Curtiss flying over it.
And 2 Humphreys in a row boat.
Cleveland Ferries also called on Port Dover and the Bessemer & Lake Erie ran coal hoppers across Erie to Port Dover CNR and of course my all time favourite the Ferry between Ashtabula and Port Burwell.
There is still some kind of summer service to Port Stanley. Heck of a summer spot!
A six hour car ride vs. a 40 minute to hour and half by boat across the mysterious Lake Erie. None of it should have disappeared but much is lost.
Somewhere around here I have a brochure from the Aquarama which plied the waves from the late '50s until September, 1962. I recall seeing it docked at the E. 9th St. Pier in Cleveland, when I was aged five or six.
Until I find it this YouTube video will have to do —
(You may want to turn the "soundtrack" down a bit. I did.)
Also —
https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/766
Follow the Flickr link here and see the brochure that this contributor has in an album:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34370769@N07/albums/72157623040787976
Aquarama postcard by John Rochon, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
Well they sure tried with Aquarama. A very sad loss.
Some more goodies:
1) July 13, 1955. No.1 The Super Continental at Armstrong, Ontario. Diesel A&B broke down and 6259 was hurried into service. Shop workers all over it! To the rescue! Can't hold up No. 1.
2) An odd doubleheader. NYC FM 4517 and a Hudson haul at passenger consist. No date given but the location is Jackson, Michigan.
3) In busier and more prosperous days, here is The Ambassador for Montreal headed by 4-8-2 4117 nicknamed 'Hercules'. Long train!
Boston North Station, Aug. 1947
4) A Penny/Flintlock Special. The Erie in Cleveland in 1948. Big power, lots of bridges.
5) Great Northern Z Class. Yuge!
6) N&W Jawn Henry .. nice pic! It's Yuge too!
Miningman6) N&W Jawn Henry .. nice pic! It's Yuge too
I cannot beLIEVE you missed it! It's the simple-expansion 2-8-8-2 that was Yuge. The turbine, on the other hand, was TE-rrific and Number One!
I liked the pic and it was a follow up to the GN Z class. All articulated locos are Yuge. Maybe we should save Yuge exclusively for the Y class.
The TE-1 is not a slacker in the Yuge dept. Suppose in coal turbines it was TErrific and No. 1 . Better if they ordered the 40 or 50 as was recommended.
The basic idea of this thread is just to maybe have a discussion if what's shown is deemed of interest. Then we can get into all the technical details with peoples in the know.
Maybe it's a lame-o concept. If so just consider it an expanded picture of the day and hope it's an image you like or haven't seen previously.
Aside---Distance on line learning off to a rocky start.., the product is good, the students are missing!! New phenomenon called 'No Surrender Bender" going on.
As Winston Churchill stated " If you're going thru hell, keep going"
Woo-hoo! One o' them big, gutsy Erie Pacifics! The Erie never bought any Hudsons or Northerns, they didn't think they needed them and for the most part, they were right. They didn't save any of them, woe worth the day!
"If you're going through hell, keep going!" Good old Winston!
And I wish I knew who came up with this one:
"Before you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, you have to walk through the darkness."
Overmod The turbine, on the other hand, was TE-rrific and Number One!
OY!
Too bad this is silent:
Poor old Jawn Henry. Incredibly powerful, but "buggy." The bugs could have been worked out of it, but the N&W couldn't interest any other 'roads in the concept, and at the end of the day it didn't do the job appreciably better than a Y6b did, so there was no point in persuing it.
And of course, everyone knew the "dismals" were coming anyway, it was just a matter of time.
Flintlock76Poor old Jawn Henry. Incredibly powerful, but "buggy." The bugs could have been worked out of it...
It could be argued that if Westinghouse hadn't dropped one of the generators during production and subsequently failed to 'make the damage good' the design might have been more of a success. In Louis Newton's coverage ("Tale of a Turbine") he repeatedly mentions this as a source of major issues.
4500 nominal HP is ridiculously small for a locomotive intended for relatively slow-speed coal traffic; conversely, it's inadequate to reach the nominal 65mph speed for 'merchandise time freight' that Baldwin sold N&W on. (Again Newton has some comments, acerbic at times, on the honesty involved with that claim.)
The real 'nail in the coffin' as far as I'm concerned was that N&W managed to damage a significant number of the hexapole motors just in the very short period of testing that found the locomotive inadequate compared to even the range of contemporary steam alternatives. It takes a LOT of trying to kill one of those things. For comparison this is no more motors, and no more available input power, than an ABA set of contemporary RF16s; while there was certainly much to complain about regarding the reliability of those locomotives, their traction motors (and much else in their electrical gear) would be generally 'above reproach'.
Diseasels were certainly not a 'done deal' even in the days Baldwin developed the Essl 'alternative to a 4-8-4' -- properly 6000hp in a reasonable-length carbody with high-speed 'electric locomotive' underframe -- before WWII. It could be -- and has been -- argued that had there been no war, and no actions to recover from it without depression like 1920-21, steam might have remained more tenable as a motive-power 'choice' longer, and conversely that effective progression to second-generation horsepower and reliability taken longer to reach. Personally I find the practical advantages of internal-combustion power, net of practical financing considerations for capitalist railroads, pretty reasonable and pretty compelling even at first-generation levels. (See the Big Little Railroad discussion of why first-generation engines of considerable power were used on commuter trains...)
Flintlock76They didn't save any of them, woe worth the day!
Although I keep hoping the Koreans did.
Overmod Flintlock76 They didn't save any of them, woe worth the day! Although I keep hoping the Koreans did.
Flintlock76 They didn't save any of them, woe worth the day!
Oh yeah. Hope springs eternal that K1 they sent to Korea is still over there waiting to be found, but so far there's been no luck for anyone who's gone looking.
1) Funky
2) Very Funky
3) Overwhelmingly Funky
Liked the overwhelminigly Funky a lot and decided to shed some light on it to see really what was what . Lots of coal, for sure!
2) is Xrotd 9213 or 9214 , one of two Dampfschneeschleuder (Steam snowplows) of the meter-gauge Rhaetische Bahnen in Switzerland. Usually based in Pontresina (near St. Moritz) they are still used from time to time to clear the line, although it's often used in excursion/photo-op trips as well. Built by SLM Winterthur around 1910, it gets meticulous care. A number of years ago one of the Swiss news organizations did a video about it, including a session with a 26-year-old "Heizer" (fireman), who explained the machinery (Uf breitste Buenderdutsch) like he was describing his girlfriend. It's often used in tandem with the "Bernina Krokodil" 182, a shortened (Bo'Bo'), 3000VDC version of the Co'Co' RhB Krokodil units that LGB modelled so well a number of years ago.
Number Three? Wow, talk about when Old King Coal was secure on his throne!
Sic transit gloria mundi.
I thought #2 could be Swiss, but, I have no idea why I thought that!
Penny Trains I thought #2 could be Swiss, but, I have no idea why I thought that!
Kinda weird and cheesy-lookin'?
Or maybe 'cause it's painted a chocolate brown?
Where is the NH electric? My guess is in its namesake city.
Number 1:
I much prefer the arrangement of the two electrics GE built for the B.A.&P. These had the porch with pants at the back of the locomotive and the cab looking like a more squared version of what was on the GP7 and GP9.
Yes, the Two EF-4s are just west of the New Haven passenger station heading southwest, bound for Bay Ridge.
Flintlock76 Penny Trains I thought #2 could be Swiss, but, I have no idea why I thought that! Kinda weird and cheesy-lookin'? Or maybe 'cause it's painted a chocolate brown?
I guess it just has an Alpine mojo.
Penny Trains Flintlock76 Penny Trains I thought #2 could be Swiss, but, I have no idea why I thought that! Kinda weird and cheesy-lookin'? Or maybe 'cause it's painted a chocolate brown? I guess it just has an Alpine mojo.
Speaking of Alpine mojo, ever see this example of bad Alpine juju?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUqaLtCuwI
xRotd 9213 im Einsatz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKCglgIO98
and the NZZ video from 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxhDJVucFqE
Flintlock76Speaking of Alpine mojo, ever see this example of bad Alpine juju? Surprise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUqaLtCuwI
I can top(?) that!
Flintlock76 Penny Trains Flintlock76 Penny Trains I thought #2 could be Swiss, but, I have no idea why I thought that! Kinda weird and cheesy-lookin'? Or maybe 'cause it's painted a chocolate brown? I guess it just has an Alpine mojo. Speaking of Alpine mojo, ever see this example of bad Alpine juju? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUqaLtCuwI
This is why snow bunnies should be staying right here with me.
deleted
"Avalanche Sharks!!!" Now how did that one get past me?
Probably because I was obsessing about when the Sci-Fi Channel was going to re-run the updated "Moby Dick." You know, the one where the new, improved Moby Dick eats a helicopter, then a submarine, then a cruise ship...
And I thought "Megashark vs. Giant Octopus" was the limit!
And man, when I was growing up in North Jersey you weren't an official kid unless you'd seen "The Crawling Eye" and "The House On Haunted Hill" at least twice.
Thank you Channel 9!
And "F Troop" may have been safer for Forrest Tucker Johnny, but I'm not so sure it was for Larry Storch...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA_BhX0UdAo
U.S. Airforce Simulators. Great idea! In use many years.
2) Oops!
3 Buffalo Central Terminal How did this happen? The Commodore would never accept or understand!
4) ... but the Buffalo remains iconic and defiant!
How do you deploy dat crazy ting?
Classified
Well, two cents. You have a Pullman troop car on the right and a former dinner on the left (by the guess of the side door and 6 wheel trucks.) Maybe this was a helicopter super life exercise as part of the Cold War effort of the early 60's? Love to know if they are still in use today or whatever happened to them.
They were used for B-52 training and continued on in use for other aircraft.. seem to remember they were used until 1989..will see if I can find the photo caption again.. should have written it down.
Here you go! https://www.fairchild.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/1248135/dust-on-the-rails-of-a-glorious-heritage/
Great pictures... Operation Cannonball! ... too cool.
The "former diner" is a converted WWII Army hospital carbuilt by ACF in 1944. Sister cars ended up in lots of postwar circus trains, the Monon's postwar fleet and Alaska Railroad's trains. Amtrak converted similar Korean war era cars to lounges (Montrealer's "Le Pub" and similar cars used on the Broadway) and baggage-dorms.
Miningman U.S. Airforce Simulators. Great idea! In use many years.
My dream house...
Jones1945 Miningman U.S. Airforce Simulators. Great idea! In use many years. My dream house...
Man, I could build one hell of an "O" Gauge layout inside a set-up like that!
The Air Force markings would have to go though, no disrespect intended. I wonder how many gallons of "Marine Green" it would take to repaint?
Whaaaaaat!
OK. But did they always deploy the cars in that configuration? T-shaped? It seems to me they could only do it at sites where a diamond existed.
Is this the train at Fairchild AFB near Spokane?
There was a fairly detailed thread on RyPN that covered some of the B52 training equipment -- some of it was adapted from kitchen cars. Apparently a number of railroads have a couple of these, and so did Space Camp (at the rocket center in Huntsville). These were probably trucked to their positions as seen, as they were probably only intended to 'roll' in case of emergency ... a couple of museum people commented on what good shape the trucks were in.
Yes. Fairchild Air Force Base, Washington
More info:
https://www.fairchild.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/762953/operation-cannonball-the-rest-of-the-story/
"...Four train cars sit forlornly across from the base's Heritage Airpark. Many have wondered why and how they ended up parked there.
These Strategic Air Command simulator cars arrived at Fairchild in 1962 and have remained a permanent fixture for more than 50 years..."
"...The B-52 Stratofortress simulator consists of two cars. The first is named "Alpine Clover," and was built in 1917. It houses the bomber cockpit with its supporting computers. The number 2 car, named "Andrew Squires," was built in 1928 and contains computer benches, storage cabinets, and an administrative area. The KC-135 Stratotanker refueling tanker simulator also consists of two cars. The first is named "John M. Forbes," and was built in 1928. This car contained the tanker cockpit simulator and supporting computer systems. The second car had no name, so it was called "Little John." Little John was originally designed to transport U.S. Army personnel over commercial railroads. Little John was converted into a workshop and administrative area with "live aboard" facilities for Air Force simulator technicians when on the move..."
1) Sacramento Northern barge 'Ramon'.
In service Jan. 3, 1915 to Apr. 7, 1954 on the Suisun Bay crossing from West Pittsburg to Chipps Island. Here is a cool fact... that little structure on the deck was a lunch counter! You could also purchase newspapers, tobacco and sundry items. Imagine that!
Passenger service lasted until 1940, freight only after that.
2) A study in black and white, sunlight and shadows.
3) A nice wide panoramic style view of New York City, 1946.
This moment in time captures a New York Central 0-6-0 ( maybe it's an 0-4-0, just in case I'm wrong yet again) going about its busy day.
When Sacramento Northern's car ferry Ramon was out of service, passengers were handled in one of the company launches "Countess" or, after 1942, "Legonia". Similar in design to the launch in the photo, they were used as work boats or were available for charter (popular with duck hunters).
https://www.wplives.org/sn/ramon.html
Miningman 1) Sacramento Northern barge 'Ramon'. In service Jan. 3, 1915 to Apr. 7, 1954 on the Suisun Bay crossing from West Pittsburg to Chipps Island. Here is a cool fact... that little structure on the deck was a lunch counter! You could also purchase newspapers, tobacco and sundry items. Imagine that! Passenger service lasted until 1940, freight only after that. 2) A study in black and white, sunlight and shadows. 3) A nice wide panoramic style view of New York City, 1946. This moment in time captures a New York Central 0-6-0 ( maybe it's an 0-4-0, just in case I'm wrong yet again) going about its busy day.
I'd say you're on pretty safe ground calling that NYC switcher an 0-6-0, it's a pretty husky-looking machine, and an 0-4-0 wouldn't be much use in a large yard like that.
It's the Weehawken yard by the way, the terminus for the West Shore line. It handled freight and passengers, both for the NYC and the NYO & W as well. Occasionally the Jersey Central would run up that way from Jersey City for freight pick-ups and drop offs.
All gone now. The tunnel through the Palisades is still there with some trackage, used by NJ Transit light rail.
Where was the trolley under the elevated?
mm to MM--- All I know is that is the Third Ave. Elevated Metro Line that the streetcar is running under.
Correct. You see the conduit track, and if you enlarge the picture you will see the "T" sign for the Thrid and Amsterdam Avenue Third Avenue Railways/Third Avenue Transit Park Row (City Hall) - Fort George line, to bus in March 1947, track north of 65th Street maintained for pull-in and put-out K-line cars until June 29th 1947 and a few days later for work-car movement of shop equipment from the the 65th Street shops.
Go to the Third Avenue Lightweight thread and see a few similar photos of the same line and car-type,
Third Avenue picture just fine, but improved Weehawken:
Nice job on the picture David!
I enlarged the photo until I started losing resolution just for another look at our "mystery" steam engine. I was wondering if it was possibly a 2-8-0 setting out on a local freight run, but as I enlarged it I got a good look at the short boiler, and there appeared to be two sand domes which would be appropriate for a switcher. So it's more than likely an 0-6-0. Can't make out the side numbers at any rate.
It's an older shot all right, look at the Empire State Building, no TV antenna!
Flintlock76It's an older shot all right, look at the Empire State Building, no TV antenna!
That was 1946, in the era where Stratovision was still the better answer to television network coverage...
I just looked up "Stratovision," I had to, I've never heard of it.
I can see why. Not very practical, but for a cool name you can't beat it!
One of the more recent takes on the Stratovision concept was solar powered drones flying at 50,000 to 60,000' to provide internet service for rural areas. Yet another take was the "Big Brass" thread on the Dick Tracy comic strip ca 1980.
The key advantage of Stratovision is that "Line of Sight" is 200+ miles away, and a plane circling over NYC could cover the whole NEC.
Erik_MagOne of the more recent takes on the Stratovision concept was solar powered drones flying at 50,000 to 60,000' to provide internet service for rural areas. Yet another take was the "Big Brass" thread on the Dick Tracy comic strip ca 1980.
A number of the Rural Broadband Initiative plans involve one type or another of 'persistent drone' presence; others invoive aerostats of one type or another that can do station-keeping 'above the weather' ... and not incidentally can perform satellite up- and downlinking outside the weather effect on typical 'weather-influenced bands' that make your Dish service disappear in thunderstorms...
Amusingly enough, 'on and off' this has occasionally been touted (including by me) as an intermediate stage in achieving reasonable GIS-level differential precision in GPS systems -- the constellation of near 'satellites' (on high-altitude drones) having dedicated beacon stationkeeping and altitude precision and embedded stabilized atomic-clock references.
There are places where, at times, even with the added cost of the flying, the thing could be cost-effective. One such was the original Angel's Flight (before the name was taken over for a kind of airborne medical Uber service) which was to provide cellular telephone services to places like Aspen, Colorado that were either ill-served by a tower-based architecture or which involved tower locations that were difficult or unsafe to access at some times of year. Where there is enough perceived demand coupled to high enough opportunity cost, even 'flown solutions' start to become interesting. (Amusingly, the thing that essentially 'killed' this was the prospect of systems like Iridium, which was and is one of the technical marvels of the 20th Century but also remains, distressingly like the Great Eastern, something that has crippled the finances of sequential entities trying to make actual money with it).
Moreover, that seven planes circling over appropriate places in appropriate orbits could cover something like 78% of the then prospective television audience with a good clean signal -- this in the age when 'coast-to-coast' broadcast networks were Big Time, and incredibly expensive to set up and run.
A big, although usually unremarked point about this was that the aircraft -- and their motors, parts, mechanics, etc. -- were really, really cheaply available. Every time I watch Fred Derry in that bomber I think 'with a few extra generators and some 400Hz broadcast equipment this baby wouldn't be sitting here idle like this'...
Of course, if you wonder why it didn't (pardon the pun) 'take off' in the late 1940s... consider objection from the existing broadcast industry, its suppliers, its patent-holders. And of course distributed atmospheric 'free broadcast' as a consumer technology is largely destroyed, even with COFDM and good autonomous-flight technologies, in a world of 5G mesh technologies and well-built-out tower infrastructure providers.
There is one problem with high altitude transmitting sites - inversion layers. I remember one day in San Diego when the major L.A. FM stations were not coming through as they did 95+% of the time, but one exception was a station whose transmitter was on the Hollyweird Hills versus Mt Wilson. At that time, the Santa Barbara stations were booming in from 200 miles away.
OTOH, the USN has their TACAMO aircraft where the point of flying was to get a long enough vertical run to make a reasonably efficient antenna at ~20kHz.
Erik_MagOTOH, the USN has their TACAMO aircraft where the point of flying was to get a long enough vertical run to make a reasonably efficient antenna at ~20kHz.
Austere was considerably lower carrier than that. And much of the purpose of flying was to have the necessary length of antenna to make the trick work, which for TACAMO is over 6 miles (as I recall the airborne version of Austere was over 120 miles as flown, which called for some interesting structural provisions). What the vertical sag of that latter array in normal service would be, I can't tell you; it had never occurred to me before now that one point of the TACAMO deployment would be to have the trailing portion of the wire approximate a vertical omni radiator...
L&PS. London and Port Stanley ...great photo of Line Car with linemen at work on overhead wires.
Montreal Tramways Nice Street scene
A1e 30 CP New Shops 1066 9/1887 Ottawa West 1/10/1941 Floyd Yates This slightly blurred photo attests to the difficulty of photographing moving subjects with yesteryear's cameras. This engine would be the fourth last 4-4-0. It became a spare for the old K&P and was last used in filming of the 1949movie Canadian Pacific staring Randolph Scott. It was stored in West Toronto roundhouse and scrapped 5/1950.
Movie version of 30 carrying two numbers including 80 easily repainted 8 to 3 or reverse! "Hat box" fake also, link and pin coupler on pilot, plus old style oil headlight and diamond stack. Note fake wood pile which appears to be scrap rather than cord wood normally used. Actual coal bunker lies beneath it since wood grates would be needed along with experience firing it! Banff, Alberta. Courtesy Doug Phillips.
Good photos, and they say so much.
Photo one, I enlarged that one just to be sure. Yep, those linemen, no hard hats, no safety vests. Different time all right, although one does appear to have heavy rubber gauntlets on.
Photo two? It doesn't get more charming than that! Good lookin' trolley!
Thank you Flintlock/Wayne
Added one more photo and a little story. Got to be a movie star for its 15 minutes of fame , then of course they scrapped it.
More should be said about the L&PS as pictured there, as electrified to a hell of a high standard in 1914.
That car can only be #2, built by Jewett in 1915 as a sister to the NYW&B cars... as serious a piece of high-speed rolling stock as was built for any railroad in those times. Sister #14 from 1917 has apparently been preserved, so people can realize what sort of high-speed connection from London to the CASO at St. Thomas could be achieved.
This was likely one of the high-water marks of for-profit heavy DC passenger railroading, I think contemporary with the stuff being done on MILW in general sophistication. It deserves better mention than as a near-forgotten anachronism, one with all the other interurbans and radial railways now gone essentially without trace in the real world unless you know where and what to look for.
Yeah, if you're doing a Western it's nice to have a 4-4-0 handy, even if you have to back-date it a bit!
At least it had slide valves to add to the authenticity. We can overlook the air pump.
Per Overmod's comment, Jewett also built the interurban cars for the late, lamented North Jersey Rapid Transit line. They scrapped them too.
L&PS Electrification
January 15, 1916
Floor plan and elevation interurban combine.
Awww... nuts !
FIXED BELOW
Car 2 leads two wooden trailer cars and another powered car showing the popularity of travelling on L&PS. Berner-Maguire Collection
Michigan Central diamond St.Thomas circa 1915-20
Car 4 and another one stopped at Port Stanley. c.1915. Wells Fargo and Co. Express Note board and batten construction later stuccoed. See below.
London & Port Stanley radial railway station in Port Stanley, Ontario. Al Howlett Collection.
Cars 6 and 2 at St. Thomas 6/1/1950
Car 8 trailing another car and box car, just west of the CASO station. 1956 Note that motorman is in far car and brakeman on far end of box car being switched.
MiningmanAwww... nuts ! FIXED BELOW
Whatever it was you did -- TELL DAVE KLEPPER. He has a similar problem a lot of the time, and your fix may be useful to be his fix.
What I did was send it/ forward the article to my gmail account ( and also my work email) and low and behold it appears "normally". Then I copy it from there instead of the original source and it comes out normal. Dosen't seem like much but it works.
In the photo of the Michigan Central crossing in St. Thomas can anyone tell me what "the leaning tower of Pisa" to the left in the photo would have been used for? Very interesting!Thanks!
GS
GeoffS In the photo of the Michigan Central crossing in St. Thomas can anyone tell me what "the leaning tower of Pisa" to the left in the photo would have been used for? Very interesting!Thanks! GS
Cement factory?
The "Elevator" setup is used for screening incoming materials - based on the color it's probably rocks and sand but similar towers were also used for coal. The big stuff gets caught at the top, a smaller mesh screen in the middle and an even smaller one at the bottom. I guess anything that made it through the bottom screen was "sand".
Thanks rcdrye and Penny for responding. Very interesting. I am going to assume most everything in the photo is LONG gone!
Geoff
rcdryeThe "Elevator" setup is used for screening incoming materials - based on the color it's probably rocks and sand but similar towers were also used for coal. The big stuff gets caught at the top, a smaller mesh screen in the middle and an even smaller one at the bottom. I guess anything that made it through the bottom screen was "sand".
Think of this as being like a gravity-fed 'launder' for coal. (You probably wouldn't see a setup like this actually used for coal as there'd be too much trituration at that angle of drop as the separation was being made -- I think this is for concrete aggregate, as he said.)
I think the multiple downpipes are to reduce the load on the system that gathers the aggregate; it doesn't help to have a lot of gravel up at the top of the arrangement. I presume the loading 'skip' runs up the back side of the tower on a cable arrangement, and trips automatically at the top.
In Mining we call them grizzlies . That can also refer to a horizontal steel latticework where big chunks of ore/rock can be pneumatically hammered.
GeoffS--Yes mostly everything is gone . The CASO is gone along with that diamond. The wire is gone too. Track is still there... CN operates on it, Diesel, London to St. Thomas and the Port Stanley Terminal Railway operates from St. Thomas to Port Stanley.
rcdrye The "Elevator" setup is used for screening incoming materials - based on the color it's probably rocks and sand but similar towers were also used for coal. The big stuff gets caught at the top, a smaller mesh screen in the middle and an even smaller one at the bottom. I guess anything that made it through the bottom screen was "sand".
Gentlemen: Thanks for the new information. I didn't think much of what is in the photo would be there so many years later, but, in the imagination it's a cool thought.
I wish I could find before-and-after pictures of some of the dramatic industrial changes that occurred after the early '60s in the area I grew up ... and passed through going from northern New Jersey to Kingston/Wilkes-Barre in those years.
There were sections of approach to the Garden State Parkway that had whole industrial complexes built OVER them, all served by a web of rail connections. There was a place PA state route 115 stopped and made a right-angle turn over a bridge crossing a boiling canyon of trains -- which I couldn't see, being too short as a child. This was one of the FIRST places I went when I could drive... only to find a great deal of concrete retaining and bridging and only one sleepy track. Then that track was gone, and the whole bridge was taken out, and the Jersey Central was gone, and then double track on the old DL&W, and then through traffic on the DL&W ...
Gone now as if it had never been; it's even hard to figure out where it was, let alone how it was.
The "elevators" used for coal separation were usiually at a flatter angle, and most often at the mine head. They were often used for "retail" coal intended for single car delivery to coal yards, small foundries and other places that have disappeared from the commercial/industrial landscape.
In Los Angeles there was an area in the industial section called 'The Patch' with railroad ally's. This kind of thing is mostly gone now.
Triple Diamond crossing !
2) Drama! " the sky suddenly turned black and out of the darkness ...and so forth.
3) New York Central trying to look classy amidst its declining empire.
4) Battleship Gons!
5) CP Rail Double Deck Commuter in Montreal area. All decked out!
Got your spiffy horns, cute bell, stripes, lights, the works!
6) No Hockey Playoffs ... remembrances though!
Miningman2) Drama! " the sky suddenly turned black and out of the darkness ...and so forth.
Hiyo gul' darned silver!
OvermodGone now as if it had never been; it's even hard to figure out where it was, let alone how it was.
Oh some of it's still there. The Northern Branch, moribund to be sure, but still there. The West Shore, now CSX's "River Sub," the Pascack Valley Line, the Bergen County Line, the old Erie Main Line. And not all that much different from the way it used to be.
By the way, a friend of mine saw that NJ Transit Jersey Central "Heritage" GP-40 a few weeks ago on the Pascack Valley Line! Unfortunately he didn't have his camera with him.
Hey! Who's run off with my Lionel "Pennsy Torpedo?"
This is a scene from the 1936 movie Broadway Limited....
So it is a drama. It looks like the scene was filmed during the afternoon with filters to suggest night.
Here is an extract with most of the critical train scenes.
The full movie, and a different 1941 movie are both available on Youtube:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+movie+broadway+limited&docid=608015455864947116&mid=A9350EB36B93053BB248A9350EB36B93053BB248&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
And a postwar Lionel advertisement to start with.
Dang you guys and gal are good. History here I tell ya, history!
I knew about the Virginian battleship gons, but not the N&W and C&O. I also found a picture of a PRR example.
Different six-wheel trucks were used by each railroad's version. I was familiar with the Buckeyes used by VGN. The weird truck under the N&W car was an oddball even in the N&W fleet, most of which used a Lewis model similar to the Buckeye. The truck under Pennsy's lone car of the type looks almost like it came out from under a passenger car, and was the same kind found under the tender of streamlined K4s 3768.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G23
The design of these predated the "Bathtub" coal gon by around 50 years. The cars fell out of favor as the tidewater dumpers were gradually converted to work with standard 70 ton hoppers in the 1940s, and most were out of service by the early 1950s.
M636CSo it is a drama. It looks like the scene was filmed during the afternoon with filters to suggest night.
About as effectively as the use of such filters in Ed Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space.
But it's sure evocative of Snoopy's dark and stormy night...
Overmod About as effectively as the use of such filters in Ed Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space.
Let's hear it for the absolutely worst movie ever made. Ed Wood's work (?) is my younger son's guilty pleasure.
CSSHEGEWISCHLet's hear it for the absolutely worst movie ever made.
I'm not fully convinced that Underdog has since replaced it.
It might be added that Plan Nine with the simple addition of an MST3K soundtrack is one of the most entertaining movies ever made. Something you really couldn't say about Underdog...
I'm still part of the jury that's still out on that perpetual contender Thomas and the Magic Railroad. With some work and less Britt, that might have worked as a movie.
The post-CGI Thomas stuff is all pretty much awful. We still haul out the "live" ones for our grandsons every once in a while (on VHS, no less). Pretty funny to think of them choosing George Carlin as the narrator for a kids' show (The seven whistle signals you can't use on television...)
Twas Ringo first.
rcdrye Pretty funny to think of them choosing George Carlin as the narrator for a kids' show (The seven whistle signals you can't use on television...)
Yeah, I couldn't help but wonder how many parents were ready to leap across the room to cover their little one's ears, "Just in case!"
But I've got to hand it to ol' George, he did a fine job! Not as good as Ringo, but just fine just the same. And George was "old school" enough to remember "There's a time and a place for everything!"
What I found interesting comparing Richard Starkey and George Carlin was how one wore a British guard's uniform and the other wore an American conductor's uniform.
More random Classic pics perhaps worthy of discussion
1) Lethbridge Alberta .. nice pic capturing an eclipse
2) We could use a bit of this these days, sell some advertising !
3) Here's one for Johnny . Atlanta, Georgia 1954. Quite a lineup, obviously passenger trains still relevant, .. but for how much longer?
4) Tennessee Central. I'm thinking these guys could use some rock bolts and screening along those slopes.
Algood Hill, Cookville, Tennessee Apr. 63
5) Quite the sight of days gone by.
Thinking in order.
SS Constitution or Independence
SS America
SS United States
unknown
RMS Queen Elizabeth ( arriving)
RMS Mauritania
6) A formidable scene ...
Good shots all! Let's see now...
Photo 1) That Lethbridge Alberta bridge reminds me of the Erie's "World Famous" Moodna Viaduct. I've excursioned over Moodna twice, quite a thrill!
Here's a C&O 614 / Jersey Transit excursion from 1996. I might have been on this one, they ran over several consecutive weekends but I don't remember which weekend I rode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJkwkOVpNuo
Photo 2) Yeah, freight trains would be a LOT more interesting if billboard boxcars hadn't been banned in 1937. Some of them were quite colorful, like the Heinz cars advertising pickles, relish, and euchered figs.
Photos 3 and 4) Not a big diesel fan, but who doesn't like "Superman Diesels?"
Photo 5) New York harbor! I remember seeing sights like that as a boy, and let me tell you those classic old liners were impressive as hell!
Photo 6) That's one fine assortment of fixed wing (CV) and helicopter (LHA) carriers! The last time I saw something that awesome was in the Philadelphia Navy Yard in 1975. Mothballed heavy and light cruisers, a few light carriers, and two "Iowa" class battleships, the Iowa herself and the Wisconsin. Depending on the flight path you can get a view like Photo 6 of the navy base from a commercial airliner flying into and out of Norfolk VA. Quite a sight.
Photo 6.
Some comment on the 'Blue Line' in #2 might be in order -- this is likely a kind of express car, with 'sold' billboard advertising on the sides, not just a privately-owned car like a contemporary billboard reefer. The Blue Line was one of many 'express lines' that acted somewhat as TV networks would a few decades later: they put together the priority traffic for 'manifest' freight and arranged for higher speeds, better rights, etc. that railroads at the period were less willing to dedicate to freight service on 'their own' nickel. Remember Vanderbilt complaining about how no one important benefited from express-train speed competitions, and how he'd rather 'charge what the traffic would bear' at the minimum speed and cost? This was a way to get benefit for the shareholders from high speed with minimum marketing or other risk...
Somebody missed that there's an aircraft carrier in #5 as well as #6. Someone astute could probably recognize the type of the many aircraft visible when you realize what you're looking at. I grind my teeth yet again looking at the West Side Highway.
"Cookeville" has an 'e' in it.
Thanks for the comments Wayne and Overmod.
Interesting about the Blue Line. Wonder if some kind of modern day equivalent could come about... might get rid of that graffiti. Most railroading is not in the publics eye any longer but still at some point they cross paths.
Yeah I didn't mention the aircraft carrier in #5. Wanted to focus on the ships. Consider it a subliminal lead in to #6. Good eye though!
Not familiar with why you "grind your teeth yet again" regarding the West Side Highway. Can you expand that a wee bit.
MiningmanNot familiar with why you "grind your teeth yet again" regarding the West Side Highway. Can you expand that a wee bit.
In my childhood, when the New York Central yard at about 57th to -72nd St. was alive with all kinds of presumably fascinating trains, and the docks were still alive as far as the eye could see down the river (which wasn't far) the elevated parts of the West Side Highway begun in the Twenties, in part for the Holland Tunnel connections, offered a complete multiple-lane route from close to the George Washington Bridge south, up in the air and grade-separated, all the way around through a tunnel at the southern tip of Manhattan and up the similarly grade-separated East River Drive (I don't remember hearing anyone call it the FDR drive back then) up past the old Harlem Speedway. In my relatively early youth a massive building program put a lower deck on the George Washington, with enhanced highway approach ramps on and off that circumferential road. One of the things I looked forward, for years, to being able to do when I got my license was to drive that elevated road, just like low-level flying.
Now, in that era a New Jersey driver could get their license at 16, but it wasn't legal to drive in New York for another year. I cheated a bit, in the old '62 Thunderbird my father had kept for a 'training' car (it was the ideal car for low-level flight, for a variety of reasons) and so it was that I found myself, on a beautiful fall day, driving south with the top down, over the traffic on the streets, around the curves, watching the river view, and going through the tunnel around to the other side. No lights, no stopping -- it was just like flying. And by April I could do it any day I wanted... just like going up to the top of the World Trade Center.
Then some moron in an illegal overweight truck went through part of the road, and the bankrupt Democrats who ran the city didn't have the money to fix it. There was an ongoing project to put some parts of it on a new higher-speed highway out in the river -- that foundered over concern for the fish who supposedly thrived around all the rotting piers and PCBs. And what we got in the end was exactly what I was afraid of ... dozens of blocks of multiple-lane taxis and trucks, stopping every few blocks at lights, in a welter of heat and exhaust ... forever.
Somebody missed that there's an aircraft carrier in #5 as well as #6. Someone astute could probably recognize the type of the many aircraft visible when you realize what you're looking at.
I think I was being targeted there...
The Carrier is a "Midway" class, the others being Coral Sea and Franklin D Roosevelt.
I spent some time looking at the most visible aircraft and came to the conclusion that they were Grumman Panther or Cougar fighters. I can't tell from the low res photo if they have straight wings (Panther) or swept wings (Cougar).
Mike to the rescue
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/522065781776399640/
Nuts! I missed the carrier in #5! I can see why, I wasn't looking for it, dazzled as I was by the liners. But look at how well that navy "Battleship Grey" blends into it's surroundings! No wonder I missed it.
Per the Mod-Man's reminisences, I got my NJ drivers license in 1970 at 17, which was the minimum age at the time. I suppose Overmod's a bit younger than me, but I don't remember them dropping the age to 16.
I DO remember them dropping the legal drinking age from 21 to 18 in 1973. Woo-hoo! No more drives up to Rockland County NY!
It was quite common for freight vehicles to carry the name of the manufacturer as a promotion at this time, for use in print advertising.
This usually indicated features of the car concerned. However, this could be advertising for other products of the car builder.
Miningman Mike to the rescue https://www.pinterest.com/pin/522065781776399640/ RMS Queen Elizabeth and “from the bottom to the top one can see the Independence, the SS America, the SS United States, the TSS Olympia, the aircraft carrier USS Intrepid, the RMS Mauretania.”
While I note the reference, I'd still give the carrier as a Midway and not an Essex, given that on the Pinterest page there is another (B&W) view taken at the same time from a different angle which shows more of the carrier. It is nearly the same size as the Queen Elizabeth. The separate stack and the tripod mast are not features that the Intrepid ever carried, and it is smaller than the Midway class.
From Magic Mike somewhere in his Long Island Fortress Of Solitude
The 4th picture down showing the massive NYCentral Yards must be what Overmod was talking about earlier.
Those walls are pretty high so I can well imagine a kid would be very frustrated trying to get a glimpse of all that.
West Side Highway
An 1897 "Official Railway Equipment Register" shows hundreds of "Blue Line" cars operated by carriers as disparate as the New York Central & Hudon River, the Montpelier & Wells River and the Michgan Central, owner of the pictured car. The operation was something like Pullman for high value freight shipments, with the "Blue Line" acting as an intermediary between shippers and the actual railroads. The scheme doesn't seem to have lasted very long. There were other competing "Lines" as well. Part of the "Blue Line's" revenue stream were car-side advertisements like the one for Jackson Wagons. Referigerator "Lines" lasted much longer, a few even into the 1970s.
MiningmanThose walls are pretty high so I can well imagine a kid would be very frustrated trying to get a glimpse of all that.
In the 'old days' all the walls were effectively that high: down the West Side, across the GWB upper deck, toward the interesting end of Pa. 115N. Combine that with a kid who was patient with interminably waiting to grow a bit bigger to be able to see out ... not realizing that the whole opportunity would be changing out of reach before he did.
I don't remember the 60th St. yard being that large by the time I was looking out for it, which would be hazily in the late '50s but not really until several years into the '60s when I began to recognize things to be looking at. One great memory was from the mid-Sixties, when we were riding north in a taxicab and what should burst from the end of the tunnel at nearly our speed, just to my right, but a NYC-painted Alco FA. That was as good as seing a GG1 arching close on the Lincoln Tunnel approach side of the New Jersey Turnpike, which I missed for a couple of needless years when I started driving because I used the default 'western extension' that had recently opened, thinking that the 'Lincoln Tunnel' route was exit-only...
That was before the great collision on the West Side line, which also involved FAs ... and then the great slowing-down, and then the abandonments. You can imagine my delight at the opening of the Empire Connection... which opened just as I left, forever as it turned out, for the South.
With the IRT power house in the picture, just had to improve it:
1) Missouri Pacific #8, Little Rock, Arkansas 1960
Not much left if you take away the mail and express.
Wow that's a lot of head end!
2) St. Clair Tunnel ( essentially CNR) July 1958 heading for the St Clair Tunnel.
Its days are coming to an end. As goes the Steam, so goes the Electrics.
3) CB&Q Unemployed in Beardstown, Illinois Apr 1960
Interesting 3 completely different stacks and differing front headlights.
Also they just kind of 'end' in the grass.
4) On the CE&I at Glover Tower, near Urbana, Illinois Aug 1959
Weed sprayer. Nice forward view!
5) Far cry from the glory days of the Ambassador. 1 Baggage, 2 for the folks.
CVR 4928 with the Ambassador near the end of its life. July 1966 Kevin Day Collection GP9 equipped with steam generator. EMD 23995 12/1957
I like this photo. Monon 'Thoroughbred' in Chicago June 1967
Running long hood forward with a nice looking Alco C420 and a matched consist!
I wonder what station the Ambassador is at.
rcdrye might be able to identify .. its a pretty distinctive structure .
Mike to the rescue once again!
Montpelier Junction
Montpelier Jct is still in service - or at least will be when the Vermonter's suspension is lifted. Served by a volunteer attendant like the rest of the Vermonter's stations.
The photo with 4550 is interesting - freight unit with no steam line. Of course it's summer... Note also the train order blade down. CV kept up timetable and train order operation into the 1970s at least - the only signals on CV-owned track before 1987 were the ABS signals between White River Jct and Windsor, a section which operated under B&M rules. In the photo with 4928 the St. Albans & Springfield RPO is a Canadian National car, nicely marked "United States Mail Railway Post Office". The other RPO route served by CN cars was Island Pond & Portland, on the Grand Trunk.
Volunteer Attendant ? What's that all about?
Miningman Volunteer Attendant ? What's that all about?
Yeah I get that... how could you count on someone? Is this not Amtrak?
Just a guess on my part, but maybe the volunteer attendants get something out of it? Say, use of the facilities for local functions, or as a meeting place for local train clubs, historic or model? Or other things?
You know, a "One hand washes the other" kind of thing?
I'm not a cynic mind you, but I can't see volunteers keeping facilities up out of the goodness of their hearts, not for long anyway, unless there's some kind of appreciation shown.
Might be some quid pro quo however I'm thinking these are guys that just luv it and are eager to get there.
Interesting concept for Amtrak though, make it all volunteer from the CEO all the way down. Engineers, cooks, everybody ! Run the whole thing as a 'service to your country and love of trains'.
If so then I would consider retiring and do something 'gentle' on board the trains or at the station... I like Wyoming, anything in Wyoming?
Central Vermont
Extra CV 4549 leads train 490 (Chicago-New London, CT) from Montreal to St.Albans, VT. St.Lambert, QC. 1968
Anything in Wyoming? Occasionally, when the Zephyr is detoured; there are no station stops, only a crew change in Green River, Wyoming.
Perfect! I'll take it. Sounds like a good pace for me.
Thanks Johnny!
MiningmanMight be some quid pro quo however I'm thinking these are guys that just luv it and are eager to get there.
I'm thinking more that it's 'volunteer' from Amtrak's point of view; it's local people, perhaps subsidized by local interests, providing some level of presence or service that Amtrak could never justify funding... or finding government-sanctionable people to work
Seems to me there was some discussion about how this worked at Northampton, Mass not too long ago...
Since the subject of Vermont railroading's come up I hope Father Al's looking in, this is his thing!
A volunteer manning a station would make me very nervous if I was Amtrak. Wouldn't like it a bit. Safety? Training? Wide open to liabilities. Makes you wonder if Amtraks insurance knows about this. No sir, no thank you!
I would have everyone involved including the town, the county, the state sign off on 300 pages of 'Amtrak takes no interest or culpability or anything else', and the lawyer that drafted it up gets paid by them but appointed by me.
Otherwise.... get off my lawn !
Most of the Amtrak stops on the Vermonter's route are locally owned, and manned by volunteers, even some that don't have shelters. The Vermonter sees a surprising number of intra-Vermont travelers.
Diesel Edition
1) Now then what do you think the story is here? Determined stride, dangling smoke, likely an official by the way he's dressed.
At the very least is just begging for a caption.
2) A very shiny and clean Pennsy Centre Cab ( Center Cab for those South of the border) . Maybe it's on it's first few days of working, or Pennsy still had a buck or two in the bank.
3) Happy Feet!
4) Not so Happy Feet ... Pennsy never found out what to do with these, what's it's 'thing' was.
5) The 'WASH ME' guy been around a long time. Did this to me a couple of times over the years!
6) Diesel Edition break... "move away into the background"
7) Back when NYCentral was a real thing and had some class.
8) Union Pacific never does anything small. Big Rotary.
Am experiencing technical difficulties .. took some time to post this. Had to do each segment and submit each time and then edit... would not save anything.
Miningman Diesel Edition 1) Now then what do you think the story is here? Determined stride, dangling smoke, likely an official by the way he's dressed. At the very least is just begging for a caption.
Or a Conductor who has shed his hat and coat on a hot summer's day.
"That lazy Switchtender never lines us up. Oh well, guess I'll do it myself."
[quote user="SD70Dude"]That lazy Switchtender.../quote]
more likely Bridgetender, no?
SD70Dude Miningman Diesel Edition 1) Now then what do you think the story is here? Determined stride, dangling smoke, likely an official by the way he's dressed. At the very least is just begging for a caption. Or a Conductor who has shed his hat and coat on a hot summer's day. "That lazy Switchtender never lines us up. Oh well, guess I'll do it myself."
How about...
"It followed me home Mom! Can I keep it?"
And now for the rest...
Photo 2) A center-cab so clean you could eat off it. Back when keeping up appearances meant something!
Photos 3 and 4) Centipedes! WHAT were they thinking?
Photo 5) Don't feel bad, he's gotten me too on occasion!
Photo 6) "Do not go gentle into that good night." Not giving up without a fight, those steamers!
Photo 7) Too bad those C-Liners (or Erie-builts if I've mis-identifed it) did't work out as good as they looked.
Photo 8) "Unlimited Power" obviously didn't apply just to locomotives!
How am I ever going to explain being rammed by a tugboat? That's it, I'm going home.
PRR's RT-624 transfer units were Baldwin's way of finishing PRR's order for Lima-Hamilton LT-2500 transfer units. While neither was stunningly successful, the Baldwins at least stayed in service until their trust ertificates ran out, handling coal and ore trains at various places around the system, and working as pushers. The Lima units were in the same service except for a few without dynamic brakes, which were used in transfer service in Chicago.
rcdryeWhile neither was stunningly successful...
I'd argue that they were quite successful given the necessity of their time; if you wanted 2500hp on six axles you'd have a double-motor unit; if you wanted visibility and bidirectionality with that, it would be a center-cab. Note how little traction the EMD alternative (TR units with Blombergs, presumably) got in that space.
What changed the world, of course, were second-generation units that could make 2400 reliable horsepower out of one turbocharged prime mover. With reliable electrics, and consistent build quality ... and ongoing manufacturer support, which Baldwin wouldn't supply after Westinghouse quit the railroad-traction market.
Penny TrainsHow am I ever going to explain being rammed by a tugboat? That's it, I'm going home.
Could be worse. Could be a LOT worse! How about a ship with a guy at the helm who can't parallel park?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dpy7xcd1E4
Didn't FM's Trainmaster come out at about the same time? Weren't they at least moderately successful? BTW, on the regular Trains forum, there is a discussion about the big center cab units.
This is indeed a C-Line unit.
It is CPA24-5, one of the first single engine 2400 HP units built anywhere.
You can just see the two equalising beams on the rear truck in this view.
NYC had eight of these, eight 2000 HP cabs and eight 2000 HP boosters.
EMD only offered 2000 HP or 2250 HP during this time even with two engines.
The equivalent four axle units were re-engined with EMD engines by NYC but none of the five axle passenger units were rebuilt.
Fr.AlDidn't FM's Trainmaster come out at about the same time? Weren't they at least moderately successful?
They were the first effective high-horsepower single unit -- you could add the C-liner 2400s to that as being four-motor versions of the same thing.
They would likely have been far more successful than they were if there hadn't been a crippling strike just at the wrong time. Not sure that would have been so good in the long run, as few things pose more fun than one of these OP engines as it ages, clearances open up, and stuff begins to collect on the bottoms of the upper pistons...
I still find it fascinating that FM was able to use these prime movers in low-profile lightweight high-speed locomotives.
Thanks Peter!
Yeah, the poor old Trainmaster. If I remember correctly only around 127 or so were sold to various railroads. The concept promised much but just didn't pan out, the OP engines not being well suited to over-the-road use.
Road crews didn't like them much, if Mike Bednar is to be believed, and I don't see why not, crews tried to run the Trainmasters short hood forward when they could, otherwise exhaust fumes would drift into the cabs nauseating the crew. The OP's were oil-leaky, and maintanance headaches. Nowhere as easy to service as the GM engines. I've read there was a Jersey Central Master Mechanic that, as soon as he was in a position to do so, got rid of the Central's TM's almost overnight.
Lionel's Trainmaster series of models were a hell of a lot more successful than the real ones ever were! I've got one, VERY impressive on the layout!
Flintlock76... crews tried to run the Trainmasters short hood forward when they could, otherwise exhaust fumes would drift into the cabs nauseating the crew.
Part of this is due to high-horsepower and dubious supercharging from a two-stroke engine; part of it to additional oil 'blowby' from worn/sticking rings and pooling piston-cooling oil on the upper pistons. The early GM engines also produced nasty fumes; in fact, there was at least one case where fumes actually asphyxiated the crew of a consist of F units working with the wind blowing just the wrong way.
And it is just as much hell to run many GE locomotives with 7FDLs the same way, for similar reasons, and that's a four-stroke engine...
The OP's were oil-leaky...
Be careful here. Van Stonehocker, who was one of the original OP engine designers, didn't know of any oil 'leakiness' in the sense that Baldwins, for example, were leaky. My understanding was that FM in the detail design of the H24-66 carefully ensured there were few opportunities to develop either pressurized-oil or gasket leaks; of course, there are far fewer opportunities to lose oil on an OP engine, which has no cylinder heads or valve gear.
Did they use oil? yes, and as they got worn, to an infuriating degree. If I recall correctly volatilized lube oil, not unburned white-smoke fuel, was what made the dingy blue clouds that led one mountain railroad to 'plug in' one of its FMs over weekends to keep the engine warm without idling. Balt well remembers the fun if an older OP was kept idling for any length of time and then run up to full revs as in switching heavy cuts.
On the other hand, SP used them in perhaps the most demanding service any 2400hp OP-engined locomotive encountered (with the possible exception of the LIRR) and I don't remember hearing vile comments about blue smoke on acceleration or other showstopping problems, even though you had the engines going from idle to full acceleration to idle multiple times per hour. And those stayed in first-line service well up past Amtrak day, replaced in no small part because SP had surplus SDP45s, a much more modern locomotive, to replace them...
... and maintenance headaches. Nowhere as easy to service as the GM engines.
This too has to be put in perspective (with a big heads-up nod to Kettering, Dilworth & co. who figured out what actually mattered).
Most of the stuff that has to be 'serviced' on GM 567/645 engines doesn't even exist on OP engines, and is much more complicated to work on when it needs attention. What GM did that made so much sense was incorporate all the fancy stuff into a relatively small and (relatively) easily-exchanged 'power assembly', which could be popped out and its piston and rod relatively easily extracted after that if more damage had to be addressed. Note the facility with which the rod bolts on fork or blade rods could be accessed 'from the side' without worrying about dropping them blind into a windage tray or whatever.
And while you're there, you can pull and service the liner with some additional tools and equipment. That is NOT the case for liners in the OP engine; to do one you have to pull up the entire crankcase and upper crank, opening up the drive gearcase as you go. Now this could be reduced to something of a science, and on roads that followed the general N&W shop theory it was pretty easy ... with a proper set of overhead rails and a couple of chain hoists or whatever. If you didn't have that, pulling teeth would be little more painful. Same for rings on an upper piston... and it was the upper pistons, I recall, that preferentially coked and stuck, for a number of reasons.
Even so, I think the real nail in the coffin for the OP, technically, was the development of a for-profit aftermarket alternative to 'genuine EMD parts'. One wonders what would have happened had FM effectively competed with upgraded versions of the OP engine (which BTW is now rated around 8400hp for locomotive service) rather than giving up the ghost to companies that would ultimately forego any railroad use of the powerplant at all in favor of the 251 line.
I've read there was a Jersey Central Master Mechanic that, as soon as he was in a position to do so, got rid of the Central's TM's almost overnight.
There are places of course where Fairbanks Morse locomotives are not a thing of the past:
A shot from 19 April 2020, two units running with clear stacks on a train of tank cars. Details at:
https://www.parovoz.com/newgallery/pg_view.php?ID=664965&LNG=RU#picture
Of course the other view:
This is an older shot, from 26 August 2014.
I believe the number of units built in Russia with FM engines is similar to the number of EMDs with 567 engines, and unsurprisingly a number are still around.
The listing here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TE10
Remembering the numbers are of two unit sets, the number of 2TE10Ls is similar to the number of GE ES44s.
Overmod On the other hand, there was no question a GP40P was a better answer, and in fact lo! these many years later a GP40P is STILL a better answer
Quite true. There's several GP40P's purchased by the Jersey Central in the late 60's still on the job and doing what they were meant to do.
As a matter of fact, here's two of them. One in the Jersey Central "Heritage" scheme and one in NJ Transit silver complete with "Disco Stripes."
Shot in December of 2019, Christmas is coming, there's snow on the ground, some in the air, and it makes me wish I was there in a comfy seat with a big mug of coffee and a good smoke. Would have made a good day.
"The cold doesn't bother me anyway..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0DyDutwwYY
For those who don't know, that's the old Erie mainline, and toward the end the Ridgewood NJ 1914 Erie station.
M636CThere are places of course where Fairbanks Morse locomotives are not a thing of the past:
Those are no more Fairbanks-Morse locomotives than the Tu-4 was a Boeing airplane. I'll grant you they copied the 38 8-1/8 engine, and I do enjoy them.
The Russians did the same sort of thing with the Alco 539 engine. Trains did an article on one in Cuba which was so faithful (or witless) a copy that it reproduced Alco casting numbers in the block.
OvermodThe Russians did the same sort of thing with the Alco 539 engine. Trains did an article on one in Cuba which was so faithful (or witless) a copy that it reproduced Alco casting numbers in the block.
Not just that, but when the Russians copied the B-29 they copied it right down to the dents in the fuselage of the one they'd interned!
Hey, Stalin wanted an exact copy, and what Stalin wanted, Stalin got!
Two photos today, both Pennsy.
The first is perhaps a promo picture for the new GP35. The interesting thing looking back, is the 'ranking'. The newer GP35 is the star, way in front and centre. Second place goes to the GP7/9's and close to them at third is the E. The infamous Baldwin Sharknose is in last place and the only one clearly not on a through track.
Seems they cleaned up the litter for the picture but the sand patches tend to take away a bit.
Second photo is is the Pennsy Bp20 Passenger Shark. The photo shows off their 'battleship' size. This is just not any old Bp20 either, it's the infamous 5774 which was the loco involved in that deadly crash we talked about years back that killed many military personnel.
The engineer ignored all warnings and signals, even having a lantern thrown at his window.
Not sure what the fellas are doing in the photo but someone here will have a good idea.
Miningman Not sure what the fellas are doing in the photo but someone here will have a good idea.
The locomotive appears to have derailed. They are likely trying to figure out how to get blocking and rerailers underneath it, a difficult task as there is now little (if any) room between the underside of the locomotive and the ground.
MiningmanTwo photos today, both Pennsy.
Let's see here...
Photo 1) Looks like the Pennsy is trying to put a brave face on things.
Photo 2) I wonder if those guys are humming...
"Baldwin Shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo!"
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Just in case everyone thinks I've lost it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqZsoesa55w
Alas, I experienced neither the Ambassador nor the CV in general. The closest I came to the CV was when I was in Northfield, VT, mid 60's. I was in some .22 caliber competition. Saw the CV tracks, but no trains. I also missed out on the now defunct St. Johnsbury and Lake Champlain. I have had trouble logging in here all day. Somehow, I got to read a post by Dave Klepper of 2012 about. New England memories. I thank him for sharing those things I missed out on.
CV's own wide-vision cabooses had built-in markers, as did CN wide-vision cars. The cars carrying reflectors as markers were older steel CN cars on CN/CV/B&M pool service trains CVSP/SPCV and CVED/EDCV. The pool fell apart not too long before the Amtrak/CV takeover of the Conn River in 1987. Of course I can't find a picture of one...
SD70DudeThe locomotive appears to have derailed. They are likely trying to figure out how to get blocking and rerailers underneath it, a difficult task as there is now little (if any) room between the underside of the locomotive and the ground.
Looks to me as if they're looking at the end of the truck that might still have an axle on the rails, perhaps just having jacked or blocked and gotten the wheel back on at that end. It would not be fun re-railing one of these long-wheelbase drop-equalizer trucks.
Nothing 'baby' about THOSE, though - one source I know calls them 'fat sharks' which is uncharitable, but the two tugboat engines inside do not make them lightweight. You'd be better off with the previous passenger carbody a la CNJ or the Gerties and sing 'Ba-by-face-doo-doo-doo-do-do-do' (you couldn't with clear conscience sing 'you've got the cutest little...')
Here's the infamous 5774 again looking a wee bit tired but not too bad.
Its April '63 so they must be near the end of their time. Pity one was not hidden away somewhere.
To tie into a discussion over on Trains about situational awareness by the engineer the engineer of 5774 crashed into the rear end of a troop train at quite a clip, telescoping the cars and killing many servicemen.
The engineer ran his train past a flagging brakemen sent out for protection ...who even threw his lantern at the locomotive hitting the front windshield when it became apparent he would not slow and stop. ... and there was a fireman too!
After reading the report it stated there was never a determination why that engineer did not stop and acted in the manner he did. The engineer was an old head. I believe the fireman attempted to intervene but it was far too late.
Devils and demons run the show.
Erie 4-4-2
Note the peculiar relationship between the valve chests and cylinders, and the relative size of the valves. These engines were built just after the turn of the century as Vauclain compounds -- Erie apparently had quite a few Atlantics of different classes built as such, most or all of which were simpled within about 3 years (one source indicating that standardized conversion 'kits' were made up for at least some classes). As the 'heart' of a Vauclain Conpound was its piston valve, these have to rank among the very, very few engines converted from piston to slide valves; this work being done several years before relative perfection of the Schmidt superheater and its progressive implementation on North American locomotives. These engines ran all the way into the early 1930s, so might have been rebuilt again not much later than the picture date with retrofitted superheat and piston valves of some kind... it may be Mike time to find later detailed pictures of E-2s.
As with the "what's in a picture" thread over on MR, the more you look at these the more details you notice. See the cinder hopper and drop pipe for smoke box cleanout? it looks almost as if this is an external hopper, whereas many contemporary engines used a simple cylindrical 'can' under the smokebox. Air tanks are torpedo style, up over the firebox. Look at those snazzy loops down to the paired check valves on the boiler side... injector arrangements might be interesting.
Not too surprised the Erie "went retro" with slide valves replacing the Vauclain compound system, the compounding worked all right but it was a maintanence headache. Railroads don't like maintanence headaches.
The Erie's Camels have a reputation of being the ugliest Camels ever built, but this one looks pretty good in that head-end shot, and not too bad in that 3/4 shot either.
Flintlock76the compounding worked all right but it was a maintenance headache.
The interesting thing here is that Erie apparently bought a lot of Baldwin Atlantics with that system as late as 1902, then had 'em all converted by 1905 or so. I suspect there is an untold story, and I am already suspicious that I know some of the reasons for it, behind Erie buying this wonder power and quickly giving it up as an expensive bad job. Surely there will be an account in the trade press somewhere about the Erie conversion 'kits' and their planning, and some discussions about why that response was needed...
This was far from the last time a Great Baldwin Innovation would prove to be pretty much a long-term maintenance disaster: they played a version of 'you bet your company's life' with that technical wider, Caprotti valve gear, in the late Twenties and, as far as I know, had to see every single one rebuilt -- even narrow-gauge.
From 2012: In December, the city's Bureau of Street Services announced that it would remove the railroad tracks
Wowee! 19th Century steamers!
I'm not sure, but the first one looks like the C.P. Huntington. Whatever it is, it's cute as a button!
The second, the Pioneer, is still around and in a museum, I don't remember which one. Believe it or not it was steamed up and run as late as the 1940's.
Yeah, added 2 more. Single driving wheel right under the engineer. Long way to the cylinder!
Hey Wayne! I like the new avatar!
Taking a better look at it as an enlargement, that's not a platform. It looks more like a city sidewalk, there's a sign clearly advertising a store or something. The station may be on the other side of the train out of view. But it is a bit odd that there's no fence or anything between the sidewalk and the rails.
Yeah, I know it's not a platform, it's a sidewalk. The sign say 'Loans'... maybe the Pennsy stopped for a loan to make a payment on that dumb E8. It's a strange setting that's for sure.
Grass goes right up to the track. Must be ballast somewhere. Maybe it's semi-street running. Gives meaning to ' Do not walk on the grass'.
Penny Trains Hey Wayne! I like the new avatar!
Thank you Ma'am! I finally figured out how to change the thing and went for the most dramatic image I could find. I found several Continental Marine (Marines with flintlocks, don't ya' know?) images that looked good and chose this one. It seemed to fit the bill pretty well.
Huzzah!
Penny TrainsBut it is a bit odd that there's no fence or anything between the sidewalk and the rails.
It's what old-time rail photographers used to call a "Railfan friendly station."
No fence or obstacles to keep you away from the train and spoil any possible camera angles. Of course, whether that's by accident or design is anyone's guess.
Miningman Ok now this looks like a family picture. It has me intrigued though. The Pennsy passenger has no platforms but grass instead! Where could this be?, Northern Michigan? There's a story here!
When you suggested northern Michigan, I thought of Petosky. The town became a major resort area in the 1800s thanks to the nearby Harbor Springs, which had a natural deepwater harbor that could dock any Great Lake passenger ship of the era. A lot of resorters came from Chicago. The GR&I (later PRR) had a wide ROW downtown, as it had resort commuter routes in 3 directions from Petosky, in addition to mainline trains. Later, when the multi-track line became single track, the rest of the ROW width became grassy Pennsylvania Park. However, as I looked closer, I noticed that the track has a curve, whereas this line went straight thru town. It also looks more urban that Petosky. The engine has an induction(?) antenna. Would PRR engines be thus equipped on their most remote line?
My attempt to make Erie 939's details more visible:
Ooops, cannot allow the smoke to be missing!
MV Kalakala was notable for her unique streamlinedsuperstructure, art deco styling, and luxurious amenities. The vessel was a popular attraction for locals and tourists, and was voted second only to the Space Needle in popularity among visitors to Seattleduring the 1962 Seattle World's Fair. The ship is known as the world's first streamlined vessel for her unique art deco styling.
After retiring from passenger service in 1967, the ship was beached in Kodiak, Alaska, and converted to a shrimp cannery. In 1998, the ship was refloated and towed to Puget Sound with the owner hoping to restore the ship. During this time, the ship continued to deteriorate, with the Coast Guard declaring the ship a hazard to navigation in 2011. Unable to raise the funds required for restoration, the ship was scrapped in 2015.
The story with plenty of pics.
https://jannaludlow.co.uk/Art_Deco/Kalakala.html
2) First to go were the lightning stripes.
Second to go were the minority builder Diesels
Third to go was the passenger trains.
Fourth to go was the New York Central Railroad
An absurd chain of errors beyond irresponsible. I'm sure almost none will agree with me but I stand with my statement.
3) When things were a bit more sensible. No need for this to have disappeared either.
4) I think something happened here to famous Milwaukee 1
They seemed to be stopped kind of no where along the high iron and the engineer and fireman are checking out something. Perhaps I am incorrect.
1) 5 guys, 2 trucks, a bunch of equipment, all to ice peas. Well it worked and UP made lots of money so there's something to be said for it all.
2) Big Pennsy power on Horseshoe. What is striking is no fence. Back when people had common sense and less lawyers.
3) Always New York City pics lately, so I thought maybe Chicagos turn.
Coach yard. Impressive.
4) Departing with the Liberty Limited in the Fleet of Modernism scheme. Make Jones happy anyway.
The little boy in the picture appears to be holding a camera which makes me think it might have been a fan trip.
I believe this is the C&NW coach yard, preWWII. (?)
And if things were truly sensible today, could not this be recreated? And do whales of good in the process?
Put catenary over the ex-C&NW (UP), put in the flyovers at Davis or Main, Evanston, buy back from the two musuems, rebuild for dual current and current collection. replace one trap-stair combination each side with MUNI-style step-elevators, have the snackbars run by a good Chicago, Evanston, or Waukegan restaurant, charge the normal NETRA fares. Well, I can dream, can't I?
The coach yards are the long-gone C&NW north side yards. The bridges crossing the yard are Grand Ave. and North Avenue. The north side yards served the North and Northwest line's suburban services, with the West Line's trains served then as now at Western Ave.
Thank you rcdrye. Here's an expanded view.
Thamks!
1) A somewhat interesting photo... a pair of Bp20's leading an E on a short Pennsy passenger train, maybe a commuter? ... and all under wire to boot! Where's the GG1? Also looks a bit like its Nebraska or something but of course not. Perhaps the E broke down or it's a power move. If not then really overpowered. Baggage car trailing. All heavyweights too! Maybe going somewhere in a big hurry.
2) Not very common to see Penn Central in a very classy light but in this instance they are looking very classy indeed.
3) N&W trying to look 'railroady', ...well not bad but you still need a J up front.
4) Last look at the Kalakala Ferry. If Milwaukee and Burlington got together and built a ferry, and sprinkle in a little bit of Pennsy S1 then this is it.
Dreary end.
Nice selection here! Let's see now...
Photo 1) Unless I miss my guess that Pennsy train's operating on the New York & Long Branch in New Jersey and approaching South Amboy. That's Raritan Bay on the far left. And if it's the NY&LB it's definately a commuter train. I'd guess those two "Sharks" are rescue power, or it's a power balancing move. Those overhead wires would end just out of sight to the right of the frame. GG1's would handle the commuter trains from Jersey City to South Amboy, and then would hand off to steam engines, and then later to diesels which would complete the runs to Bay Head. The wires extended past the station to facilitate shifting of the GG1's.
the NY&LB was jointly owned by the PRR and the Jersey Central and saw trains from both 'roads. For the Pennsy it was kind of a "last stand" for some of their famous engines like the K4's and the Sharks. Steam ended on the NY&LB in 1957. The 'road's now called the North Jersey Coast Line and operated by NJ Transit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Long_Branch_Railroad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Jersey_Coast_Line
Photo 2) Wow, I've never seen Penn Central engines look so clean!
Photo 3) Yeah, that N&W "Geep" was the replacement for the Class J's. It just wasn't the same afterward. Nothing was the same afterward.
Photo 4) Too bad about the old Kalakala, but that's the problem with big, old antiques. If they can't earn their keep in one way or another it's curtains for them.
Thanks for the in depth explanation Wayne. Getting a good explanation and resources on a pic puts in all in perpesctive.
I saw my first N&W diesel when I was in Farmville, visiting an uncle and his family, in July of 1959. It came in with on #4, the Pocahontas. After having seen J's (and one streamlined K) in Bristol, it was a dreary sight.
Yeah N&W diselization roughly coincided with what happened in Canada from Saskatchewan and Eastward, the mountains and BC having gone earlier.
It was trauma for a young boy early teen. I would just walk away when it became apparent it was Diesels. Who cares. Dumb horn sounds like a cow. Cows sounded better. Stinks like a bus, stupid things.
Perhaps if it were 20 years earlier in the stream line era with slant nose E's and weird looking Turbines then I might have been excited as a kid like William O. Craig stated but really nothing was going to take the place of those familiar steam locomotives and their antics. Coal, water, noise, thumping, cranking, hissing, the coal smoke, the valve oil, it was a real sight to behold.
In Burlington there was always one steam loco at a water tank, or coal chute or at the fruit sheds. There was always another waiting on of the two junctions that met the main line, and every 15 minutes one that just flew thru at track speed 79mph and then another stopping at the station. All that ended with the Diesels because everything changed.
Of course I'm an old softie with beautiful memories and I do lament a lot. Diesels still pop my balloon.
There was a slightly less outlandish if less ship-like ferry in Sydney Australia which I remember...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iq8uKWpjl4
Nice little ferry. Can see why they nicknamed it The Submarine. Had a fairly short service life about 30 years. Sorry to see it got scraped. Would have been a great addition to our Lac La Ronge up here, which is really a small inland ocean. Just the right size! Nice styling, luv that top deck railing going around. Thanks Peter, who knew?!
Flintlock, from one who rode: By the end of WWII, most Bay Head Junction PRR trains ran to and from Penn Station, not Exchange Place. Jersey City. The CNJ trains all ran to Jersey City, of course. For many years when I used the service for Army leaves and passes and then business trips, there were only two morning inbound and evening outbound PRR Jersey City trains to and from Bay Head, but this was reduced to one, the Broker, which did not even stop at Souh Amboy. All PRR NY&LB trains that ran to Jersey City ran through with K4s and then diesels and did not use the GG1s. The Broker was the last steam passenger train in the immediate NY Metropolitan area.
There were much better ferries in Sydney -- hydrofoils. At least some were based on the PT-20 design made famous as the Disco Volante -- a wonderful name for a car, too -- in Thunderball.
In appearance, though, even these were not quite up to the standard of the Alekseyev Projekt-340 Raketas (think of a chopped '57 Chevy on top of a '50s-modern railroad car that cruises at 40kt). (The succeeding Kometas were even more Googie spectacular, but not to my eyes as stylishly 'wicked fast'.
For a short but wonderful time one of these was brought to Tortola, in the BVI, and was used as the ferry from St. Thomas (in competition with the Antilles Airboats Geese -- it was traveler's heaven). Alas! the owners had an issue with the engine (which I was told was a license-built Mercedes twin-turbo V-12, a sophisticated engine for the time) and made the mistake of disassembling it while waiting for parts. Unfortunately the alloys proved dramatically susceptible to accelerated and vicious corrosion, the upshot being that when I next saw the ship the block was a furry mass of red and it was obvious a re-engining was going to be necessary.
Well, right at this time I had been bouncing around reviving passenger-ferry service on the Hudson, using a report on high-speed ships and the original history of the Erie Northern branch in Englewood. This would use a high-speed boat touching at Alpine, Englewood Cliffs, and Edgewater which would then proceed right around the tip of Manhattan to reach the Wall Street area. Now what I figured was that a rebuilt Raketa would be perfect to start this. Then as traffic increased we could contract for a couple of those Boeing banking-hydrofoil hulls, flip the ferry line, and wind up with a fine 'engineer's private yacht'. I casually mentioned this to Terry at Long Bay Hotel one afternoon and he said 'Oh, you know she's for sale' and invited me to meet with 'her solicitors' -- who, as it turned out, were contemplating a price of about $2400 for her. A quick tow to Florida and refit, an excursion paying her way up past Atlantic Highlands, and away we go... but not so fast. President Carter, who I otherwise liked, had agitated to ban imports of anything 'Russian' and this included stuff sent to the islands (this was the glorious era that you could get duty-free Stoli 100 for $1.50 a bottle) -- and there went the grand idea.
Still... look at one of these up close and you will probably share the interest.
daveklepperFlintlock, from one who rode: By the end of WWII, most Bay Head Junction PRR trains ran to and from Penn Station, not Exchange Place. Jersey City.
As usual you're right David, but that was my "Jersey Central On The Brain" syndrome kicking in! I forgot about the PRR being just a little different.
The picture had me guessing a bit last night, as I told Vince by e-mail. The topography looks very similar to a section of the old PRR mainline that parallels Route 95 in Delaware. Then I looked again and was reminded of a photo in a Don Ball book I've got on the PRR. Pulled the book and sure enough there it was, the section just south of the South Amboy station, and taken from darn near the same angle.
Too bad about the "Submarine" Peter, it looked to me it might have made someone a nice houseboat or yacht if they wanted to put some money into it, what what can you do? Maybe it was too far gone to bring back.
It does look a lot like Claymont (where the GG1 high-speed record was set during testing) but there are different little hills, and the water 'beyond' is a different color.
The only other place that looks like this is the Atlantic Highlands area.
Part of the key here is that Baldwins and E units don't multiple. Someone made that train up to match the power of the one E unit, and the Baldwins stayed made up in pairs like this during regular service -- so you had a road failure and they sent first available power out to retrieve it. They would have little trouble recovering time on the schedule with that, dead E or not.
I have film of rush-hour operation with Baldwins and EMDs in the same consist ... doubtless with an unusually long train loaded near capacity. But of course you see engineers in both relevant cab windows...
Ah-ha! Very good Overmod. Makes sense. A scene with those units and consist now delegated to history. Good to know. Important.
Todays theme is " Lengthy"
1) So here we have a DL109 of the Southern in Meridian, Mississippi. Those Alco's had some real length to them!
2) Sticking with the deep South in Meridian, here we have GM&O DL109's one pic with a lengthy consist.
3) Still in Meridian... here's the Southern again with a pretty lengthy passenger train. 4 E's ( corrected) up front. Southern was famous as an Amtrak holdout as well.
4) This is one lengthy switcher. Early days Missouri Pacific NW4. ( corrected)
As a steam freak I really, really, really hate to admit it, but I just love the look of the DL-109's! Especially in New Haven livery! (Take your pick, there were several, and they all looked good!)
Sleek and sassy-lookin'!
I wish someone would come out with an affordable O gauge model of one. Not much chance of that now with Mike's Train House (MTH) going away.
I'm coughing just looking at that switcher......
And do I smell burning solder from the ALCOs?
Flintlock76I wish someone would come out with an affordable O gauge model of one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyH00r0dmhQ
(I do have to admit using "affordable" and "Mike's Train House" in the same sentence made me chuckle a bit...)
And #1 is obviously not an NW2, it's an NW4. There were two, built with parts from boxcabs 511 and 512. One of the last hurrahs for the 201A.
3) has 4 E8s. Note the double roof air tanks on each.
4) Note the tiny stack on MP 4102 in front of the cab. It (and 4103) had steam generators, the first EMC switchers so equipped, presumably left over from 511/512. MP also had a pair of NC2s with the same engine and electricals as the NW4. Also 4 600 HP SCs and 1 SW with in-line 8s. The NW4 was built in 1938 while EMC was still selling the 201-A in production switchers, along with the "City" E2 sets and Santa Fe's last E1 sets.
OvermodI do have to admit using "affordable" and "Mike's Train House" in the same sentence made me chuckle a bit...)
Yeah, that's a "Premier" grade scale (1/48) model, which was expensive, too much to pay for a toy, at least for me. It needed layout with at least a 42" curve radius and mines only got a 31" radius curves, so it wouldn't have worked anyway.
Mikes "Railking" models were a bit more affordable, but he never did a DL-109 in the "Railking" line.
So many errors on my part in one day so thanks to all for the corrections: NW2 is a NW4 .. went by memory instead of checking, thanks for the correction Overmod. Had a 50/50 shot at being correct, I lost.
F's are E's on the Southern so thank you rcdrye, made that mistake before, how I don't know, just getting ahead of myself I guess. A steam generator on the MP NW4 Switcher...pretty spiffy!
.. and of course the 2-6-4 is not a 4-6-2 Pacific, a great pic and posting Peter. Thanks to all for being my editors.
Somebody's gonna buy those MTH manufacturing rights sooner or later. I just hope it doesn't go the way the Williams to Bachmann sale went. Prices went up, up, up while selection went down, down, down. It's also funny that MTH didn't do a 109 for tight radius since they had no problem producing "bantam" 4-8-4's with drivers more suited to an articulated:
But, what can I say. I DID buy one!
Yeah, I'd like to see someone pick up the MTH line, especially the "Railking" line, but I'm not holding my breath. All the tooling's in China, they're not going to give it back, and considering what's going on with China nowadays it just doesn't look good.
Bachmann just ruined the Williams line, as I've said either they bought the company and then didn't know what to do with it, or they bought it just to keep someone else from getting it.
You know, I had a chance to buy an MTH "Bantam" Daylight starter set at an antique show in Kutztown PA just about 10 years ago. Passed on it, not sorry I did, but sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing. That's one beautiful engine!
1) Nice pic eh? First thing I thought was how much is their power bill??
2) A few degrees of separation and time from the above photo.
C&NW Proviso Yard Dec. 1, 1942. The War is on. Dark days.
3) The great hope immediately after the war, the shine is off quickly and in full decline. Looking a bit beat up considering not that old.
4) December 1944 and Union Pacific receives its very last new steam locomotive, a FEF-3, the famous and still with us #844. Do you think they actually knew this was the last?
5) Fairbanks Morse C Liner coming at you, Inductive Phone antennas and all. Not all that long on the roster, but a break from legions of F's and E's.
Mifflin, Pa.
6) New York Central looking pretty snappy in Buffalo. Doing what the Central did best but how much worry is going on in the home office right now?
7) One more late add on ! Here we are in Watkins Glenn, famous for racing, but back in the day the home of Hippos and Decapods!
Includes a bonus video! Not bad, Decapods in the raw, home movies but it gets better. Not long.
Bonus Video Pennsy Decapods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu34hQfnlK4&list=UUpAxlhe2QWOECupW5rXHCKA
Correction on picture No.5: that is not a C-Liner but what is termed an Erie-Built. It has the F-M prime mover but was assembled by GE in Erie for Fairbanks--Morse, likely because at the time they did not have full manufacturing capability themselves. The big radiator panel at the rear of the unit is diagnostic.
John
1) We rarely, if ever, mention Mongolia. Well here we are in Tuul-Khonkhor Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia on the Mongolian Rwy with 2TE116UM units. Looking pretty good.
2) Depiction of B&O 2-8-8-0's .. captures the power of steam quite well.
3) Is the South African 4-6-2 the most beautiful Pacific ever built?! What a beauty.
That South African Pacific's a looker all right, a neat blend of British and American styling and tastefully painted as well.
I don't know if it's the most beautiful Pacific ever built, but it's certainly a contender!
Miningman 1) Funky 2) Very Funky 3) Overwhelmingly Funky
Number 2 is a Photoshop creation, right?
No it's real. Here is rcdrye's comment with 2 videos of it in motion.
The class designator for the rotary:
x = service (no character is used for revenue)
Rot = rotary (rotierend) - surprised its not Dp (Drehpflug)
d = Dampf (steam)
Thanks to the political wonderland of the former Soviet Union, these locomotives are actually Ukrainian.
There is a good summary of the whole class at
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A2%D0%AD116
This is of course in Russian but will (sort of) translate by the usual means.
The 2TE116UM is a Mongolia only version of the 2TE116U used in Russia and elsewhere. The original 2TE116 is 3060 HP per unit and the 2TE116U is 3600 HP per unit both from a 5D49 four stroke V-16. There are 2176 pairs, 4352 units, known to date.
Mongolia also has five 2TE116UD (of 63 built in 2012 onward) which each have a GE GEVO V-12 rated at 4250 HP.
This is 2TE116UD-006.
Thank you Peter, great information. Who knew? Your interest in these things is quite valuable.
A few more pics perhaps worthy of discussion.
1) C&NW Alco C628 High Hood! Why?.... because ex N&W. Here we are in Altoona, no not that one, the one in Wisconsin. Apparently they were seen on this line many years then they finished their days hauling Taconite ore up North.
2) Here's the Royal Train in jolly old England. Apparently it came within an inch of the scrapper, old fashioned and all that, until it was deemed or re-discovered as quite a good way to get around the country and sees occasional use by the Royal Family.
3) Might as well call this "I've been working on the Railroad" . Here we have the Virginian 2-6-6-6 beast looking like it's earning its keep. Fabulous, stunning actually.
4) While we are on hard working and magnificence here is a Santa Fe Northern going full out and putting on a show. Luv those drivers! What a beast.
5) Need to cool down a bit in all the heat? Need an escape from all nonsense going on in the world? Well you can lose yourself for a minute in a simplier time when all was right and life was not so frantic.
I've experienced a scene like this a hundred times or more as a kid in similar settings and I am forever grateful that I can draw on such memories and been around at the right time to appreciate it all.
Miningman 4) While we are on hard working and magnificence here is a Santa Fe Northern going full out and putting on a show. Luv those drivers! What a beast.
That particular engine is still around today, currently undergoing her 1472 day overhaul at Amtrak's Los Angeles yard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to_idu0dp7k
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/649871/
Miningman 4) Departing with the Liberty Limited in the Fleet of Modernism scheme. Make Jones happy anyway.
I would be even happier if the entire consist was modernized or "Raymond Loewyized", including the steam engine that powered the Liberty Limited. PRR probably thought that not even a fully streamlined consist could attract regular patrons of B&O's Capitol Limited and Royal Blue so that in this case, they didn't spend money on unnecessary things like modernized the whole train to beat their competitors. I wish I could hear the thoughts of B&O's regular patrons on PRR's FOM project, like how many of them switched to PRR's trains just because part of the Liberty Limited consist was attached with brand new sleepers and lounges. Not many I guess. The Broadway Limited went FOM but that didn't change its extremely low ridership until 1943.
Jones1945PRR probably thought that not even a fully streamlined consist could attract regular patrons of B&O's Capitol Limited and Royal Blue so that in this case, they didn't spend money on unnecessary things like modernized the whole train to beat their competitors. I wish I could hear the thoughts of B&O's regular patrons on PRR's FOM project, like how many of them switched to PRR's trains just because part of the Liberty Limited consist was attached with brand new sleepers and lounges.
This is all for the best, of course, because nothing PRR could have built would have prevented the disaster that came when B&O got operating rights over the P&LE in the mid-Fifties. Better food AND a better ride AND a faster schedule added up to 'no real competition at all'...
MiningmanI've experienced a scene like this a hundred times or more as a kid in similar settings and I am forever grateful that I can draw on such memories and been around at the right time to appreciate it all.
Oh my, steam in the snow!
I like the way the artist (Howard Fogg? Ted Rose?) left the locomotive ambiguous, it could be any railroad anywhere, so it's guaranteed to set anyones nostalgia motor into overdrive.
It could be my North Jersey around Christmastime. The Pascack Valley Line, the Northern Railroad, the Erie Main Line, the West Shore, the Lackawanna, the Susquehanna, it doesn't matter. It's a reminder of a saner day, good times, and enough to bring a lump to your throat.
Great find Vince! Thanks!
Overmod The problem here is that 'nothing succeeds like success' -- the streamlined 'perception' of the train in Washington involved GG1s, the west end wouldn't support a required large pool of streamlined engines in the late '30s, and the very logical streamlining/moderninzation target, the two K5s dedicated to the Northern Central part of the Liberty Limited's route, would run at the wrong time of day through 'who cares?' country as far as making an impression of modernism with the streamlining expense would be concerned. This is all for the best, of course, because nothing PRR could have built would have prevented the disaster that came when B&O got operating rights over the P&LE in the mid-Fifties. Better food AND a better ride AND a faster schedule added up to 'no real competition at all'...
The problem here is that 'nothing succeeds like success' -- the streamlined 'perception' of the train in Washington involved GG1s, the west end wouldn't support a required large pool of streamlined engines in the late '30s, and the very logical streamlining/moderninzation target, the two K5s dedicated to the Northern Central part of the Liberty Limited's route, would run at the wrong time of day through 'who cares?' country as far as making an impression of modernism with the streamlining expense would be concerned.
Thank you for the inspiring respone. I almost completely forgot the role of the K5s! As a railfan who loves PRR and streamlined steam engines, I wish Pennsy had streamlined a small fleet of Pacific and E6s, maybe 20 of them, to establish something like Southern Pacific, MILW and NYC's streamlined steam engine fleet before the coming of class T1, even though Pennsy already had a large fleet of streamlined electric engine GG1 serving the east end in the late 1930s. It didn't happen (until T1) but there is nothing wrong with it because it is just my railfan fantasy.
At the end of the day, PRR wasn't the only RR that used unstreamlined steam engines to haul streamliners, let alone the whole steam-streamliner era only lasted about 10 years. From my point of view, it was the best 10 years, but I understand that for people who took train but wasn't a railfan, many of them care more about the quality of service inside the car instead of the appearance of the train. Simple and straightforward.
Briightening up the Royal Train:
Holeeee... that's a BIG Tank Locomotive.
That's a Riddles 4MT 'British standard' 2-6-4. It has 68" driving wheels (so those men are not midgets like the ones in some past posts about C&NW power) but the design was tweaked a bit to fit a loading gauge a bit restricted even by British standards. Put one next to a B&A 4-6-6 and you'll see what a HO-LEE big tank engine really is...
Designed around 1951, and all but one in regular service until 1964. Then they went fast. i think this one was built circa 1955 [EDIT;I was wrong, 1957... see below], and was retired in 1966, so about the same waste as a Niagara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_4_2-6-4T
Miningman Holeeee... that's a BIG Tank Locomotive.
Goliath, Thomas' big brother?
Flintlock76Goliath, Thomas' big brother?
(And in actual canon, it's a 'she' - Belle - so a younger sister...)
Also known as the locomotive Leader should have been...
It will probably not be a surprise that 15 of these made it to preservation, nearly twice as many as any other Standard class...)
15! One could start a whole commuter service with that and just think how popular it would be.
Miningman 15! One could start a whole commuter service with that and just think how popular it would be.
Damn right! And don't call it transportation either, call it a ride!
So it was named "Belle?" I couldn't tell from the picture. Dat's kool, it works.
80154
It was the last steam locomotive built at the Brighton Works
March 20, 1957
Miningman 80154 It was the last steam locomotive built at the Brighton Works March 20, 1957 https://dd4ia1o5xjk7o.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/cms/l/Last_Locomotive_built_at_Brighton_Works_20Mar19571.jpg https://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/topics/topictrans/railways/railways-15 look if you dare ... the end https://www.flickr.com/photos/60464967@N05/6384943563/
These tank locomotives remind me of passenger steam engines used in Hong Kong's KCR British Section.
Class A, 2-6-4, 19"x26", 61 1/2" driver, 180psi, total 8 delivered from 1910-1915.
Class B, 22"x28", 180 psi, 61 1/2"driver, 4 delievered in 1924.
We can take a little solace, though, st the end: Wikipedia said none of the 4MT standards survived to wear the new British Rail logo -- but there, right at the end, someone has put it on for her to wear with honor to the grave.
Firelock: Belle was the actual name of the Thomas & Friends character patterned after this design, equipped with water cannon up top (I have no idea if that was even remotely historical). I suspect the name does reference the famous Southern train. Sure does look like Thomas' sibling...
https://ttte.fandom.com/wiki/Belle
I can't say I didn't see that scrap line photo coming. What a shame.
On the other hand, that fandom article about "Belle" was fun! I had no idea!
Miningman https://ia801901.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/17/items/meccano-magazine-1939-06/mm193906_jp2.zip&file=mm193906_jp2/mm193906_0017.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0
"American observers have been very favorably impressed by the paintwork of the locomotive and coaches of 'The Coronation Scot'. This was described as the 'most lustrous and beautiful paint job' they had seen on any train." Not only the paint job was excellent, but the whole consist was also beautified and streamstyled with skirts and diaphragms added to all cars. This special version of Coronation Scot also included a club car and sleeper, an end car with rounded-off rear edges, and a "hamster-tail" paint-job that mirrored the gold "whiskers" on the locomotive's nose.
What LMS couldn't change was the size of the steam engine. Compared to B&O's streamlined P7a #5304 designed by Otto Kuhler, the 4-cylinder Coronation Class was much smaller.
Jones1945What LMS couldn't change was the size of the steam engine. Compared to B&O's streamlined P7a #5304 designed by Otto Kuhler, the 4-cylinder Coronation Class was much smaller.
Interestingly a number of British sources say that the balanced 4-cylinder drive within British loading-gauge constraints and piston-valve limitations restricts the available power to about what the engine historically reached, about 115mph. I confess it would be interesting to see what one of these engines would do if given the usual 'improvements' like reversible compression control, a full Kylchap front end with exhaust tract flow streamlining, and higher admission pressure and superheat...
Incidentally there are sources who note, with some justification, that R.A.Riddles and not Stanier oversaw the conceptual and detail design of these locomotives...
Yes, It would be interesting to see how Kylchap exhausts could have further improved the performance of the Coronation Class, making it an even more competitive steam engine in the London to Glasgow express train market. If Kylchap exhausts can boost the performance of the A3, A4 and BR Standard Class 8 Pacific, it should have also worked on the Coronation Class.
Although the Coronation Class didn't beat the LNER Mallard in terms of top speed, their operating top speed was almost equal. The average top speed of the Coronation Scot on the timetable was merely 80mph (between Lichfield and Rugeley, 8 miles).
It also does have to be said that the LMS had a more wretched main line for sustained high speed than the LNER. Look at the subsequent history of the ECML and WCML for some of the differences.
It's sort of a shame that Riddles chose to reject both three- and four-cylinder power in doing the Standards. (I understand why, but still...) I also have to chuckle at the assumptions in 71000's design and construction as built -- there is little question 'the fix was in' both for that design and not too much later for Riddles' career with the British railways!
Overmod It's sort of a shame that Riddles chose to reject both three- and four-cylinder power in doing the Standards. (I understand why, but still...) I also have to chuckle at the assumptions in 71000's design and construction as built -- there is little question 'the fix was in' both for that design and not too much later for Riddles' career with the British railways!
The 71000 as built was definitely not what Riddles wanted. The major design flaws of it were noted and could have corrected during the construction stage if BR didn't insist to cut corners. Fortunately, Riddles' name is cleared after the Duke of Gloucester Steam Locomotive Trust not only brought back the 71000 to life but also made the design works so much better than the as-built version.
I guess the fascinating story of the 71000 and its preservation history has caught the eye of the T1 Trust Team. When I look at the 71000 running at 70mph with 12 coaches behind her, I immediately thought of the T1 5550. I believe the T1 Trust will achieve the same level of great success.
It's funny that the steam community has almost completely edited Riddles out of memory; I never thought of him much as important (despite Duke of Gloucester and the 9F balancing) while Porta and Chapelon and Kiefer (and Bulleid) get written about in detail. I think there is much more of a story in politics and selective arrogance than has been fully put together for North Americans to appreciate, but some of the issues, like conserving foreign exchange losses by not going to oil for diesel fuel in the '40s, don't get the overall emphasis they should.
Overmod It's funny that the steam community has almost completely edited Riddles out of memory; I never thought of him much as important (despite Duke of Gloucester and the 9F balancing) while Porta and Chapelon and Kiefer (and Bulleid) get written about in detail. I think there is much more of a story in politics and selective arrogance than has been fully put together for North Americans to appreciate, but some of the issues, like conserving foreign exchange losses by not going to oil for diesel fuel in the '40s, don't get the overall emphasis they should.
At least part of the problem is that Stewart Cox, who worked for Riddles, pretty much claimed credit for the BR Standard locomotives. Cox was quite a prolific author, both in technical papers and books for the public. Even Cox indicated that Riddles was largely responsible for the proposal for a 2-8-2 version of the Britannia becoming the 9F 2-10-0, and indicates that experience with the War Department 2-10-0 developed by Riddles from the Stanier 2-8-0 (by way of his own 2-8-0) was critical in the adoption of the 2-10-0 design.
The War Department 2-10-0 basically recognised that much European track could not take the heavier axleload of a 2-8-0 designed for British main line use, but also was the first British design with a wide firebox over a trailing coupled axle.Greece could not have used the WD 2-8-0, for example.
As to the "Duke of Gloucester", as I understand it the air ducts in the ashpan were significantly smaller than shown on the drawings, an error by the tradesmen who built it. Since there was only one, the error was not detected until the heavily corroded ashpan was discarded during the restoration and replaced by a new pan which actually matched the drawings. In retrospect, Cox's attempts to explain the poor steaming not knowing about the ashpan are quite amusing.
Riddles' work was derivative, based on Stanier and H G Ivatt who preceded him, but the decisions were his.
The biggest argument against the BR Standard locomotives is that given their short operating lives, existing designs could have been built at a lower cost, although there may have been greater resistance to the use of one of the group dsigns on another system.
The best anecdote I know about Riddles comes from a formal inspection by the British Transport Commission in 1948 of proposed colours for passenger locomotives. Three new LMS "Black 5" locomotives had been painted in the shades of green used by the Southern, London North Eastern and Great Western. After the three locomotives had passed by the reviewing location, Lord Hurcomb, the BTC Chairman, asked Riddles if there were any other options. Riddles, who had trained with the London and North Western, and later with the LMS, produced a similar Class 5 finished in high gloss black with cream and red lining, the colours of the LNWR passenger locomotives. The response from the BTC Chairman, knowing Riddles' background, was "Riddles, you b*****d!". Needless to say, the lined black was adopted for all but the largest passenger types, which had the GWR scheme.
A beautiful "Photo of the Day," here repeated, an L&N Pacific on a run over the Red River Valley.
As posted, did most of you, like I did, assume it was a black-and-white photograph? I did, but when I got it on my hard-drive, and attempted to get the details of the locomotive to to display better while preserving most of the drama of the sky, I discovered it was a color photograph, with age taking its toll. So, I decided to do someething about it, using only the photograph's own material, but using MS Photo Editor a lot and MS Paint a little to produce this:
Comments welcome
Unhappy with smoke reduction, so:
Good job David! Putting a little smoke in it brings it to life! Good job on the color enhancement as well!
Some more great pics and rememberances that perhaps can provoke some stimulating conversation.
1) Show stopper pic... I never saw the New Haven but a lot of you here have. The PA, the McGinnis scheme, even the cool cars of the time. Feel like I was there!
2) Here's another road we don't discuss too often... the Pittsburg and West Virginia. An important road and had some very interesting variation in its motive power.
3) Likely you've seen this pic before but time for a replay. Here's the late great Nickel Plate and it's often overlooked Hudsons in Chicago, at the LaSalle Street station. Almost like you could walk right up to that engineer and have a good chin wag.
The other are just fine as is, but the NYNH&H picture deserved some improvement, I thougt, so:
The location is in the South Bronx, north of the Hell Gate Bridge, looking west. The diesels are on a freight from Bay Ridge, during the period before the ex-Virgina then NH EF-4 then PC E-33s were bought.
MiningmanAlmost like you could walk right up to that engineer and have a good chin wag.
Depending on the passenger loading platform and the station, in some places you could.
Nickel Plate ran out of LaSalle Street in Chicago. Its joint (with Lackawanna) service to Hoboken NY was slower than almost any NYC train, but NKP trains still lasted until after the N&W merger.
The NKP passenger entrance to Chicago came joined the IC main line on the far South Side, entering from State Line Crossing and using rights on the Belt Railway of Chicago part of the way. From there some NKP freights used the IC's lakefront line to the NKP freight house on the lakefront. The NKP crossed the IC on a through truss bridge, ducked under the PRR and NYC mains and joined the NYC east of the Englewood Station. The former NKP connection from the IC main line to the NS main is targeted for a passenger connection to allow closing the St. Charles Air Line near downtown Chicago (see www.grandcrossingrail.com ).
Thank you rcdye for the important correction. I have edited the original.
GeoffSHoboken NJ also, correct?
By that I suppose you mean you could walk up to the locomotive and chat with the crew? As far as I know yes you could, depending on the length of the train, by that I mean as long as the locomotive was reachable by the platform. Pennsylvania Station in Newark NJ was the same, according to a story by the late Curtis Katz.
Most of the stations in New Jersey were pretty much the same.
Notes from the Amazon entry for the book:
"The occasion of the naming of an engine Royal Signals — a lunch party held by the London. Midland & Scottish Railway — was also the occasion of the first encounter between R. A. Riddles and his present biographer. Both were leaving the party early on their respective duties.
'Where are you off to?'To see if the Guard of Honour has arrived.''Damn the Guard of Honour. I want to see if the engine has arrived.' "
My first thought was: "What was Royal Signals and when was it named?"
Most of the LMS locomotives named after British Army units were Royal Scot class built from 1927, but these were not all originally given Army names.
However a search revealed that Royal Signals was one of the smaller Patriot class, which was a smaller boilered version of the Royal Scot for use on lines unable to take the larger type. These were theoretically rebuilds of older four cylinder 4-6-0s of the LNWR Claughton class and used a boiler also used on some Claughton class locomotives. The only component actually used from the LNWR locomotive was the leading bogie. Royal Signals was the fourth of these "rebuilds" built by Stanier in 1932 as number 5987, the old locomotive nominally rebuilt. It was renumbered 5504 in 1934 and was named, as described by Rogers, in 1937.
Flintlock76 GeoffS Hoboken NJ also, correct? By that I suppose you mean you could walk up to the locomotive and chat with the crew? As far as I know yes you could, depending on the length of the train, by that I mean as long as the locomotive was reachable by the platform.
GeoffS Hoboken NJ also, correct?
By that I suppose you mean you could walk up to the locomotive and chat with the crew? As far as I know yes you could, depending on the length of the train, by that I mean as long as the locomotive was reachable by the platform.
At Hoboken the platform tracks as I recall were in 'pairs'. and in my relatively brief (1963 to ~1990) experience everything conventionally locomotive-hauled came in head-first, rather than backing in to keep smoke away from the station. Plenty of time for a conversation before the consist was pulled off and the light engine taken for servicing.
Outbound the platforms might not be long enough for you to reach the engine cab and the approach trackage, in potentially heavy use, was very tight very quick right after the platform end. I would no more mess with this than with engines on the ready tracks at Enola.
Most trains at Newark Penn, and come to think of it New York Penn, had the engine windows accessible from the high-level platform. Many's the time I could easily talk to enginemen on GG1s and E60s; it became positively cozy on AEM-7s and the like. Further out (for example at the old Princeton Junction) the platforms were low and shorter; even after raising, the engine often overran the end.
Pennsylvania Station in Newark NJ was the same, according to a story by the late Curtis Katz.
[/quote]
1)
2) New Home of Facebook
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/facebook-nyc-office-farley-building.html
All those thousands of people involved, and the secret was kept right up to the end.
Yes, they only knew about the particular piece of the puzzle they were working on, but they still kept their mouths shut about the piece. Says a lot.
Except for a few who didn't, but their story doesn't belong here.
Speakig of "The Gadgets," did you know if things had gone a little differently they might have been dropped by RAF "Lancasters?" Here's the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XX9ptCNpik
Flintlock76Speakig of "The Gadgets," did you know if things had gone a little differently they might have been dropped by RAF "Lancasters?"
Overmod In a world where parachute retarding was not advisable, I tremble to think of the survivability of those Lancasters...
Well, the concept of parachute bomb fall retarding was known by that time, the Air Force making use of it during very low level bombing missions, they called them "parafrags," so parachutes could have been applied to the A-bombs if needed, it wouldn't have been difficult.
The only other airplane capable of carrying A-bombs would have been the Convair B-32 "Dominator," originally contracted as a back-up for Boeing's B-29, "just in case," but development was agonizingly slow, the B-32's not making it to the Pacific until mid-summer of 1945. I won't tell the whole story of the B-32, anyone curious can look it up easily. Suffice to say all B-32's produced (there weren't many) were dropped from Air Force inventory by the end of 1945. Obviously the Air Force didn't think much of it.
The Lancs probably could have pulled off the atomic missions, losing that five tons of dead weight would have certainly given them an immediate gain in airspeed, and the bombs would have still had that 45 second interval from drop to detonation, maybe much longer if they put drag chutes on them.
But it's all speculation anyway, since the scenario never happened.
The soviets did drop them by parachute. Or at least, they did with this one:
75 years ago the term "Hibakusha" was invented.
Same me, different spelling!
Flintlock76... parachutes could have been applied to the A-bombs if needed, it wouldn't have been difficult.
As I recall, the stated military reasoning was that a retarded drop would provide more time for them enemy' to shoot at the device to disable it (or fire any salvage fuzing early) if they recognized it, but (in my opinion much more importantly) in the event of nondetonation the drop would lovingly convey to the Japanese a near-intact copy of $4B of applied secret research. They certainly had physicists who would know more or less exactly what it was, and how to reverse-engineer most of its details.
It has been my opinion since reading about the Lancasters in the Groves book that parachute retardation would have been needed for that aircraft's survival, and that rejection of that aircraft type would have functionally followed regardless of any 'American carrier for American bomb' chauvinism actually involved.
Well, it's all speculation anyway. It certainly makes a lot more sense as far as a "what if?" scenario than say, "USS Constitution vs. HMS Victory, who would win?" or "What if General Lee had an atomic bomb at Gettysburg?"
And considering the B-29 had its development problems the Air Force was going to have to use something. As it was the the B-29's "bugs" were sufficiently worked out, although if Air Force historian Col. Walter Boyne is to be believed, and I don't see why not, when all was said and done the Air Force never loved the B-29 the way they loved the B-17.
A few more things...
The "Tsar Bomba." I wonder how many shots of Stoly those Soviet bomber crewmen needed to settle down after THAT mission?
And Hiroshima's "Shadow People." In a way, they were the lucky ones. They never knew what hit them.
With the end a few years away, the Rock Island, always struggling, gave it a good go with a new look. A household name and a sprawling system it was always the underdog and a railfan favourite.
This certainly gave a good impression and at least pointed to a new and hopeful future.
Never really cared too much for this scheme, always found it a bit garish but it was the times and perhaps in scenes such as this it gave a good impression.
I liked it and still do.
But then I also liked the McGinnis New Haven scheme and still do.
But thls variation even better:
I saw one of those sky blue "Rock" boxcars pass through Richmond about two years ago, it looked like it had a skin disease but was still recognizable. Quite a shock to see it though!
And it seemed the New Haven just couldn't settle on a paint scheme once diesels and modern electrics came along, but the thing is they ALL looked good!
Flintlock76but the thing is they ALL looked good!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/New_Haven_Railroad_Daniel_Webster.JPG/800px-New_Haven_Railroad_Daniel_Webster.JPG
Well...that one is certainly questionable.
Yeah it even toured here through Southern Ontario on the CASO but we showed it the door pronto.
I quite like the McGinnis colours, even though I despise the man.
We still have lots of these in revenue service, Illinois Central and/or Grand Trunk Western must have bought a big portion of Rock Island's grain car fleet after the final bankruptcy. The (very faded) logos and lettering are still readable on many of them.
OvermodAre you sure you want to say ALL?
Uh, yeah, I see what you mean. I wasn't aware the "Daniel Webster" even existed. Well, it's a wasted day if you don't learn something new. Man, that thing's really ugly!
Oh well, even Babe Ruth didn't hit a home run every time at bat.
SD70DudeI quite like the McGinnis colors, even though I despise the man.
As I have noted before, he went through an AWFUL lot of duds before arriving at the rather delightful elements in the final designs (which play around with the colors depending on locomotive type). See the YouTube video, but keep aspirin and Dramamine near.
https://vimeo.com/57203024
I am not as certain that I like his version for B&M nearly as much...
SD70Dude I quite like the McGinnis colours, even though I despise the man. We still have lots of these in revenue service, Illinois Central and/or Grand Trunk Western must have bought a big portion of Rock Island's grain car fleet after the final bankruptcy. The (very faded) logos and lettering are still readable on many of them.
Many of them went to the CNW and to the SSW. Of those, most now have been sold off to other owners. The last ones arrived on the RI in '78/79. Time is ticking away for them.
Jeff
jeffhergert Time is ticking away for them. Jeff
Time is ticking away for them.
Yes indeed, besides the 40 and 50 year age limitations CN now has a total of 2500 new high-capacity grain cars either in service or on order (all from National Steel Car in Hamilton, ON). A number of prominent grain shippers out here have also acquired their own fleets over the past few years.
The ex-Rock Island cars are only a small minority of the soon to be retired fleet, there are still hundreds if not thousands of cylindrical four bay hoppers still in service out here, these being the former Canadian Wheat Board and Provincial government fleets, nicknamed 'Trudeau Hoppers' after the Prime Minister who bought them. They have been a everyday sight across the Canadian prairies for decades, having replaced the previously ubiquitous 40' boxcar in grain service.
And yes, despite being modern compared to F-units or steam this iconic Canadian car design is very worthy of preservation. That's all I can say for now.
Alberta.... boring!
I was hoping you would find that one, I'd probably get banned again for posting it.
If anyone asks, they are all painted like that (we're very open-minded up here)
Without the winter. Still quite nice.
Miningman Alberta.... boring!
Now, this is really boring:
Indeed! Good one.
I regret to say it took me a while to figure it out.
Over on Trains some folks were discussing the blandness of Amtrak decor versus the fabulous themes in passenger cars post WWII.
For a while though Amtrak gave it a go, perhaps influenced by all the equipment they inherited and tradition.
And also in other ways.
One of the things I did was a proposal for Amtrak dining cars in the great age of purple in Amtrak and AutoTrain decor. This had tables with the appearance of inlaid marquetry and 'bar finish' clear epoxy for durability, and 'nonwoven' tablecloths and napkins that could be washed but just as easily 'recycled' if badly stained ... or stolen for souvenirs. After eating hours the tables folded down against the walls and the car became a disco with a full light show and sound system built into the channels in the overhead.
Hokey perhaps but it would have been fun, especially with the car attendants in hot pants...
Certainly far better and classier than WAP!
Mamma mia!
As a rule I have no use for "tagging" but after seeing that I'll have to rethink things a bit.
It couldn't have come out of the car shop like that, could it?
Wish to second the throughts expressed by others about the Danial Webster paint scheme being an exception ot oterwise good designs.
My son and I were just out Thursday afternoon train watching along NS north of Duncannon PA @ about MP 125. Did not even turn into our spot when a train comes along of covered hoppers. Gray hopper after gray hopper goes by but near the end another strange color is seen. On this poor faded car it said ROUTE ROCK. I was so shocked to see it I did not get the new owners markings! But, they are still out there!
GEOFF
Flintlock76It couldn't have come out of the car shop like that, could it?
Well, I can tell you one thing, there are a fair amount of decal sets out there in many scales!
Whaaat! Decal sets you say?
Decals? I remember when Micro-Scale came out with a decal for this famous B-24 50 years ago.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightning72/4102625570
It made a lot of modelers VERY happy! Although in the club we felt sorry for the guys who'd just hand painted it on their models.
I wonder what decal technology could do now?
A Century-418 ?! Could be. Very late model RS-18 for Inco in Thompson Manitoba.
Other rare features are the -2,-3 and so on on the numbering and that sort of neat but seldom seen paint scheme. Definitely not used in Sudbury.
INCO
Thompson
INCO 208-2 and 208-3 part of 3 unit order (208-4 to follow built 8/1968) MLW M3497-01 4/1958, -02 5/1958
Notice the numberboards only display the dash numeral, 3 etc.
Note: These units were very late model RS-18's built long after MLW introduced the Century series. These units (plus QIT 6) had newer features of the Century models and thus could be considered C-418.
Subsequent owners; 208-3 and 208-4 sold in 1995 to OSR.
Those RS-18's are interesting, in a way they remind me of a beautifully painted and maintained GP7 ( or 9) I saw 30 years ago at the DuPont plant in South Richmond that they used for switching. Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me. Even more unfortunately the first time I saw it was the last time, we lost the account several months later.
This is a product from the D&H Conductor thread on the Trains General Forum
I photographically rerailed the tender of this Consolidation, but needed to erase the other 2-8-0 that had pushed the tender's rear off the track because the engineer was distracted by a more serious event in the yard adjacent to the Carbondale, PA passenger station. In this area, the D&H used Consols for everything, passenger, freight, switching.
Oh yeah, the D&H's monster Consols, if I remember correctly they were the biggest 2-8-0's owned by anyone. A product of Leonor Loree's late-in-life conservatism they were great for drag freights but not much else. I believe they didn't even have stokers, Loree wanting a "Day's work for a day's pay." The firemen worked their butts off on 'em.
Flintlock76Oh yeah, the D&H's monster Consols, if I remember correctly they were the biggest 2-8-0's owned by anyone.
I believe they didn't even have stokers...
It does have to be said that these were just about ideal for the way D&H ran coal trains right up to the mid-Thirties, just as L&NE's were ideally suited to that railroad's needs. After Loree was gone, the railroad went to Challengers and good 4-8-4s and their world changed -- inconceivable to run either class without stokers! But they also continued happily running 2-8-0s past the date of Mr. Klepper's photographs ... and as late as 1937, the first test of an all-welded boiler was undertaken on one of these engines.
Dammit, I forgot the L&NE! Silly me!
By the way, didn't the L&NE have the biggest Decapods as well?
Flintlock76By the way, didn't the L&NE have the biggest Decapods as well?
All Steam Edition
All this fine talk of Decapods and Consolidations has me fired up.
So I'll start with a Primer
This is what a Railroad Locomotive should look like ... many variations but basically the same thing. A fine fine example.
2). Now this looks like quite the old timer with the balloon stack and all but look at all those driving wheels. I think it's a 4-10-something, too many fellas standing around the firebox to tell if there is a trailing truck.
3) Probably not the way most of us remember the Pennsy but it's remarkable nonetheless. If anything the engineer has good visibility.
4) New York Central RR, famous for its passenger Hudsons and even Pacifics and of course the all purpose Niagara but how about this often overlooked speedster, the 4-4-2. How about that headlight sticking way out like that!
5) School students are back September 8th .. Gotta fire up the old engine for another year of getting it done.
Except I look more like Peter Ustinov in Logan's Run these days i.e. Much more rounder due to shelter in place. Santa Claus beard to boot.
2) above is Central Pacific's "El gobernador" a 4-10-0 built by CP's Sacramento shops in 1884. Master Mechanic AJ Stevens used a valve gear of his own design, in addition to adding an axle to the fairly succesful mastadon types. The wonky valve gear, small firebox, short boiler tubes and long main rod stroke left it gasping for steam most of the time. CP's smaller 2-6-0s and 4-8-0s were more flexible and reliable. The locomotive was not particularly successful and remained an orphan on the CP roster until scrapped around 1894.
rcdrye2) above is Central Pacific's "El gobernador"
As was said at the time, "All Hell couldn't keep it hot!"
(3) is the Reuben Wells, custom made to work the 5.89% grade of the Madison Incline with adhesion.
(4) you had to work hard to fine one of the Central's few non-speedster Atlantics -- this class I believe built for the Big Four and equipped with measly 69" drivers (the mainline Atlantics had 79" and generally more style). I believe that is a 'traction increaser' under the cab to lift the trailing truck and 'throw more weight on the drivers' when starting
Again, the Scranton - Carbondale passenger train was pulled by another 2-8-0.
Didn't see any Challengers or Northerns. Must have come through at night.
Were the L&NE Consolidations equipped with stokers?
Interesting pic. Not just for the Draper Taper SD40-2 but the open auto racks ... 1989, bit late in the game no? Also noted not supposed to be first behind the power as exhaust not good on new vehicle finish.
9010_9009 leads 1st section of "Early Pig" 926 with Ford Oakville traffic on headend. Not approved marshalling to have open multi-level auto carriers near power due to diesel exhaust. Unknown if train included piggybacks as well or if it was just a dispatching move to give better priority to this traffic. SD40-2 full-width "Draper taper" carbody. DD-GM A4816 10/30/1988
2) Block lettering or Script? Some favour one over the other but I always liked the script.
6623 running "van only" at the moment. Note the backup airhose with its shrill peanut whistle. Note too the dwarf switch with electric lock controlled by dispatcher and the indicator box timed for three minute wait before switchman is to operate it with dispatcher's permission. Such switches are used on mainlines to protect approaching trains.
Hochelaga Yard, Montreal. August 23, 1968
3) 50 years old and still in service 1909-1959
M4h 3546 is 50 years old! CPR 5/1909 Digital restoration: Walter Pfefferle
CN 1371 was GMDs 1000th Diesel built May 1960
1371 (GMD's 1000th diesel!) GMD A1856 5/1960 Sudbury 7/07/1983
5) Posted this pic on the Huron Central thread on Trains when someone mentioned Franz.
I rode the Algoma Central up from Sault Ste. Marie to connect with the Canadian going West and got detrained at Franz. Listed as a ghost town in Ontario all that's left is the Railroad junction.
Franz is pronounce Frahnzz like you're a débutante pronouncing France. One of those end of the earth places. That was summer 1971.
Note the CPR work train with steam tender.
6) I'm certain most have seen this pic before, but it's worth revisiting. A moment in time that should still be the norm and with us. Everything makes sense and is perfect.
More cool pictures! Let's see now...
Photo 1) Colorful! You suppose the 'Dude's in the lead unit?
Photo 2) I like the script myself, and why not use it? If it's painted on using a stencil (and probably was) it's just as easy to do a block lettering. I miss the beaver though.
Photo 3) Fifty years old and it looks ready for fifty more! But it won't get the chance, damn it all.
Photo 4) The exhaust stacks are interesting, to say the least. Looks like you could play Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" on 'em with some careful throttle manipulation.
Photo 5) Looks like it was a nice place until the end came. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Photo 6) Wow. Oh, wow. The way things ought to be all right. AND, put some snow on the ground and you've got a perfect Christmas card!
6) Knew I should have taken that left at Albuquerque... Train on left with E1s is almost certainly train 21 the all-coach El Capitan, due out at 4:50PM. Train on the right behind 3784 is train 123 the Grand Canyon northern section due out at 5 PM. The Super Chief just left town a few minutes before. Times may be off since the schedule shifted a bit over the years, but not the meeting place.
rcdrye 6) Knew I should have taken that left at Albuquerque... Train on left with E1s is almost certainly train 21 the all-coach El Capitan, due out at 4:50PM. Train on the right behind 3784 is train 123 the Grand Canyon northern section due out at 5 PM. The Super Chief just left town a few minutes before. Times may be off since the schedule shifted a bit over the years, but not the meeting place.
I don't think the El Capitan was that big a train, even during the war. Otto Perry's photos tend to show a single E1 A unit and six or seven cars.
This is what the Super Chief looked like (on 4x5 Kodachrome!)
https://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
Real colour is always better, even if the stainless steel looks dirtier...
And the locomotives are E3s or E6s in both photos...
Maybe the El Capitan was delayed?
Flintlock76 More cool pictures! Let's see now... Photo 1) Colorful! You suppose the 'Dude's in the lead unit?
Wrong railway for me. More likely NDG, but it's the wrong part of the country for him.
Flintlock76 Photo 2) I like the script myself, and why not use it? If it's painted on using a stencil (and probably was) it's just as easy to do a block lettering. I miss the beaver though.
Sign painting used to be a real art. Most of the complex railroad logos and lettering were done by hand, with the aid of stencils and 'pounce patterns', which have many small holes punched in them to outline the letters or logo. The pattern would be held up to the surface and powdered chalk scattered along it, some chalk would get through the holes and form an outline, which the painter would use to guide his hand. Any remaining chalk was easily wiped off once the paint dried.
Flintlock76 Photo 3) Fifty years old and it looks ready for fifty more! But it won't get the chance, damn it all.
A number of small to medium size designs from the first generation of superheated locomotives of the early 1900s fell into a sort of 'sweet spot' for branchline and local service. They were light enough to tread on 60 lb rail and unimproved track, yet powerful enough to handle the usual tonnage of a branchline freight, and the passenger engines were also capable of 50+ mph with a short train, allowing them to keep pace on mainlines.
Flintlock76 Photo 4) The exhaust stacks are interesting, to say the least. Looks like you could play Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" on 'em with some careful throttle manipulation.
They're spark arrestors. Those roots-blown EMD engines can give a real show when worked hard after idling for a few days......
Flintlock76 Photo 5) Looks like it was a nice place until the end came. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Not much runs on the former Algoma Central line these days, as was alluded to in the Huron Central thread over on the other forum.
Flintlock76 Photo 6) Wow. Oh, wow. The way things ought to be all right. AND, put some snow on the ground and you've got a perfect Christmas card!
Stainless steel and that Warbonnet scheme go great together. Probably the best diesel paint scheme ever.
And look at those boxcars in the background. Not a speck of graffiti to be seen!
Open autoracks lasted a little longer in Canada:
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=21864
Thanks for that magnificent photograph Peter! The quality's so incredible it could have been shot yesterday. Thank God for Kodachrome!
Thanks for the info 'Dude. Spark arrestors? Sot THAT'S what they are! And can you imagine open auto-racks in this day and age? I shudder to think what the cars would look like once they got from Point A to Point B.
The "Tropicana Train" is enough of a nightmare as it is, taggers find those big white carsides an irresistable canvas.
Miningman 6) I'm certain most have seen this pic before, but it's worth revisiting. A moment in time that should still be the norm and with us. Everything makes sense and is perfect.
I love #6. ATSF's 4-8-4s were fascinating! They were some durable long-distance runners that were reliable and good looking. I wish there was a streamlined version (not the Blue Goose design) of them, though they already looked good enough without streamlining.
Locomotive 3765, the first of the true high-speed 4-8-4s (as opposed to the converted 3751 class) was explicitly designed to be streamlined, probably along the same lines as the Blue Goose, and in fact was delivered with stainless-steel handrails and a patch 'without rivets' on the tender where the stainless-steel band would go. Larry Brashear said the streamlining represented about 17,000lb that could not be fitted into the rather tight design specs ... frankly I never really missed it as I'm not a particular fan of that Mae West look on locomotives.
Interestingly it does not appear that considerable streamlining was going to be applied to the proposed duplex locomotive.
Right about the E3/E6 units (missed the number indicators - E1s had slits). If I were going to make a bet on the year I'd go with 1946-1948 - the dual-service F3s/F7s hadn't entirely replaced the Es on transcons. I'm going by the roof vents on the coaches to call it the El Capitan. The Grand Canyon has a lot of lightweights as well.
rcdrye Right about the E3/E6 units (missed the number indicators - E1s had slits). If I were going to make a bet on the year I'd go with 1946-1948 - the dual-service F3s/F7s hadn't entirely replaced the Es on transcons. I'm going by the roof vents on the coaches to call it the El Capitan. The Grand Canyon has a lot of lightweights as well.
The E3/E6 has three small radiator grilles on the side, while the E1 had two large vents. But the roof vents in the photo identified as the Super Chief look the same to me, particularly on the leading car.
But the shot with the 4-8-4 is most likely post war since there are no headlight shields. The two heavyweight cars on the "Grand Canyon" are probably baggage and RPO cars.
OvermodLocomotive 3765, the first of the true high-speed 4-8-4s (as opposed to the converted 3751 class) was explicitly designed to be streamlined, probably along the same lines as the Blue Goose, and in fact was delivered with stainless-steel handrails and a patch 'without rivets' on the tender where the stainless-steel band would go. Larry Brashear said the streamlining represented about 17,000lb that could not be fitted into the rather tight design specs ...
Here is a lazy Photoshoped pics showing what a streamlined 3765 Class might have looked like. Edited from a photo of the 3460 Class Hudson, details are wrong.
Now that's a lot of work to make one Ug-la locomotive. The non streamlined version is much better. Maybe it's that baby blue, I dunno.
Nice effort Mr. Jones! But I agree with Vince, something just doesn't look right. That sky blue color?
Maybe a Pullman Green color overall for the locomotive, accented with a Dulux Gold running board as a dividing line between the boiler and the running gear? Pullman Green would match the locomotive to the contemporary passenger consist, the Dulux Gold would add a bit of "flash."
You guys are right. The color of the Blue Goose is a bit too "feminine" and too cute for my taste. Some elements at the front end are inconsistent and look irrelevant. The bullet nose is supposed to be the focus of the whole design, but it is just a generic bullet nose design. If Santa Fe invited another industrial designer to redesign it, he or she would have redesigned the whole thing.
I'll just submit this image....
The Williams "Blue Goose" in O gauge.
based on the N&W 4-8-4 J
Miningmanbased on the N&W 4-8-4 J
Overmod Miningman based on the N&W 4-8-4 J All you need is a white decal script Rexall on the side and a free coupon for Trojans clipped to the tender.
Miningman based on the N&W 4-8-4 J
All you need is a white decal script Rexall on the side and a free coupon for Trojans clipped to the tender.
And that's enough of that!
Ah yes, one of Williams "Variations On A Class J." In addition to the N&W prototype, numbered for some inexplicable reason "746," Williams also did the locomotive in B&O "Royal Blue," CNR green, a New Haven scheme, even a PRR version. All great looking O gauge locomotives, but discontinued now.
OK, Williams numbered their N&W Class J 746 to match the Lionel version, but it still doesn't make sense, at least to me.
However, anticipating Overmod's suggestion, back in 2017 Mike's Train House DID put out a Rexall Train! And here it is...
http://www.mthtrains.com/railking/spotlight/12_2017/j
Anyone besides me remember Rexall?
Sure. You can get Rexall products at Dollar General.
We have Rexall drug stores up here, though the current company is unrelated to the historic American brand. Until 2016 they were owned by Daryl Katz, who also owns the NHL's Edmonton Oilers, and the arena (originally the Northlands Coliseum) was appropriately named Rexall Place. The team has since moved to a new venue.
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