Very strange things

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:02 PM

Fascinating...or Vacillating perhaps!

Great pics, good post!

How long did 5446 look like that? 

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:05 PM

Miningman
How long did 5446 look like that? 

Wasn't there a note in Thoroughbreds about this?  ISTR it was grade-crossing accident damage, with no re-application of the nose but retention of the 'rest' of the scheme ... until final tinsnips action.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 10, 2020 4:45 PM

That last shot of 5446 is interesting, I've never seen it before.

Someone with a copy of "Thoroughbreds" is going to have to sound off on this one.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, January 10, 2020 6:16 PM

From "The Twentieth Century Limited 1938-1967" by Richard J. Cook Sr., TLC Publishing, Inc. Copyright 1993:

5446, Alco #68880, Blt. 3/1938, PT-3 Tender 8/44, De-streamlined 3/1947, Retired 3/1956.

However.  This photo also appears in that book:

And the caption reads: "The occasion for partial de-streamlining of No. 5446 is not known, but this photo was taken at Englewood, Illinois, September 14, 1941."  Photo is credited to Jay Williams Coll.

I would guess it was done as a "wartime neccessity".

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 10, 2020 6:34 PM

have read that some, but not all, of the Dreyfuss Hudsons lost their streamlining during the war to expedite maintanance, the rest following later, so by 1950 they were all back to "as-built."

And the thing is, that photo was taken in September of 1941.  The streamlined "Empire State Express" would debut December 7, 1941.  Goes without saying the US wasn't at war yet in September. 

Possibly the collision damage theory is the correct one?  

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 17, 2020 10:48 PM

Another oddball Penn Central paint scheme. FL9's. 

 

#2  Don't Worry Be Happy! Happy Elevator, Happy building, Happy Station, even the Santa Fe is smiling.

 

3)  More Happy.  Now this is a happy family.

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, January 18, 2020 2:10 PM

Well that blue and yellow Penn Central scheme looks a hell of a lot better than that funereal black they wound up with!  

"Paint 'em black!  Black is cheap!"

I imagine that blue n' yellow is from a predecessor 'road, but I don't know which one.  Santa Fe maybe?

Photo two.  You suppose we're in the mythical Happy Valley?

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, January 18, 2020 3:10 PM

Flintlock76

have read that some, but not all, of the Dreyfuss Hudsons lost their streamlining during the war to expedite maintanance, the rest following later, so by 1950 they were all back to "as-built."

And the thing is, that photo was taken in September of 1941.  The streamlined "Empire State Express" would debut December 7, 1941.  Goes without saying the US wasn't at war yet in September. 

Possibly the collision damage theory is the correct one?   

I guess the collision damage theory is the correct one. I found this pic in my photo archive, as we can see from this pic the streamlining left on 5446 looked rather new, overall undamaged and unmodified... 

I didn't know that NYCRR's streamlined Hudsons fleet wasn't "completely unmodified" anymore as early as 1941! It was just a few months before the debut of the Empire State Express. Anyway, NYCRR's streamlined steam engine fleet was still larger than PRR in 1941, it was 13: 6. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 18, 2020 5:22 PM

The blue and yellow scheme on PC's FL9s was requested by MTA.  Look at the units behind them to see why.  Amtrak's units were mostly in the black scheme before getting "Cigar Band" paint jobs they wore until retirement.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, January 18, 2020 6:35 PM

Ah yes, I see some rather decrepit-looking FL9's lurking in the background.  Now it makes sense.

Thanks!

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, January 18, 2020 7:28 PM

Jones1945

 

 

I guess the collision damage theory is the correct one. I found this pic in my photo archive, as we can see from this pic the streamlining left on 5446 looked rather new, overall undamaged and unmodified... 

I didn't know that NYCRR's streamlined Hudsons fleet wasn't "completely unmodified" anymore as early as 1941! It was just a few months before the debut of the Empire State Express. Anyway, NYCRR's streamlined steam engine fleet was still larger than PRR in 1941, it was 13: 6. 

 

I think the streamlining was put back on as soon as it could be repaired, but they wanted to use the locomotive in the mean time. I was interested to see the headlight and the combined number and railroad name plate. The headlight would be needed but I wonder about the number plate. It occurs to me that these would be held in stock and the actual numbers would be bolted on as required.

A similar accident occured to a Victorian S class Pacific in 1951 and the locomotive was run without the casing over the front of the smokebox, with a new standard headlight and cowcatcher until the casing was repaired.

However the plating over the side air reservoir is missing from 5446. This was the first permanent loss of streamlining on these locomotives and was left off the whole class by 1940 or so. This wouldn't have been affected by the grade crossing incident.

Peter

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, January 18, 2020 9:07 PM

M636C
Jones1945 

I guess the collision damage theory is the correct one. I found this pic in my photo archive, as we can see from this pic the streamlining left on 5446 looked rather new, overall undamaged and unmodified... 

I didn't know that NYCRR's streamlined Hudsons fleet wasn't "completely unmodified" anymore as early as 1941! It was just a few months before the debut of the Empire State Express. Anyway, NYCRR's streamlined steam engine fleet was still larger than PRR in 1941, it was 13: 6. 

 

I think the streamlining was put back on as soon as it could be repaired, but they wanted to use the locomotive in the mean time. I was interested to see the headlight and the combined number and railroad name plate. The headlight would be needed but I wonder about the number plate. It occurs to me that these would be held in stock and the actual numbers would be bolted on as required.

A similar accident occured to a Victorian S class Pacific in 1951 and the locomotive was run without the casing over the front of the smokebox, with a new standard headlight and cowcatcher until the casing was repaired.

However the plating over the side air reservoir is missing from 5446. This was the first permanent loss of streamlining on these locomotives and was left off the whole class by 1940 or so. This wouldn't have been affected by the grade crossing incident.

Peter

Interesting analysis! This theory makes so much sense since I hardly can find another photo of NYC #5446 "semi-destreamlined" like this, there should have been more photo of this engine for her uniqueness, if she had been running in this form for a longer period. LMB made a HO scale brass model of the destreamlined #5446 but used the Selkirk front end and the plating over the side air reservoir still attached. 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, January 20, 2020 9:49 PM

What the?  BNSF spying on UP or UP spying on BNSF?

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 4:07 AM

Miningman

What the?  BNSF spying on UP or UP spying on BNSF?

 

Imagine the NYC Dreyfuss Hudson wearing PRR's DGLE with some golden strips on the tender, a CB&Q Zephyr carrying the Armour Yellow and  Leaf Brown prewar livery of the Union Pacific... A MILW F-7 wearing C&NW E-4's color... 

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:00 AM

Miningman

What the?  BNSF spying on UP or UP spying on BNSF?

 

These are two PR30C prototypes (rebuilt with Cat 3516 engines with exhaust aftertreatment) tested on UP from 2010 onward. These were presumably sold on to BNSF for some purpose. The BNSF locomotive behind is a genset switcher, so there is a good chance that ths is in California and these are being tested for emission reduction.

Peter

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:17 AM

Oh, is that  what they are!  Good to know, things that come in plain wrappers make me nervous, who knows what's in there?

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 12:12 PM

Jones1945
This theory makes so much sense since I hardly can find another photo of NYC #5446 "semi-destreamlined" like this, there should have been more photo of this engine for her uniqueness, if she had been running in this form for a longer period.

I'll have to page through some of my NYCHS Headlight magazines. There's usually some mention of the Century Hudsons in there.

I have this shot of the forlorn 5445 taken in Elkhart. Unfortunately, the exact date is unknown. The skirting is certainly abbreviated along the running board but the nose has obviously been repaired. The tender was replaced with a PT-3 type in December of '44 and the engine was retired in November of 1955.

 NYC_5445_Elkhart by Edmund, on Flickr

There are a few shots of the 5445 new at Alco here:

https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/pages-from-1981q3.pdf

 

Regards, Ed

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:39 PM

From that photo I'd have to guess 5445's streamlining isn't long for this world, they're not even trying to keep up appearances.  

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 6:42 PM

The "good book" says de-streamlined 12/47 retired 11/55 so I'd say you're right about her future.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:22 PM

Mystery solved! Dreyfuss Hudson looked great with the PT tender but they looked like a piggy in mud in many photos. Here are some photos of clean "Super-Super Husdon" in action. Note they all had the same treatment as the PRR duplexes with the front coupler hood removed:

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:01 PM

Those last two shots appear to be the "Empire State Express" looking a little rough around the edges.  Look at those mis-matched drivers in the last shot.

Sad thing about the "E-S-E," it made it's debut on December 7th, 1941.  The New York Central hoped to make a splash in the afternoon and evening papers but something else happened 6,000 miles away that Sunday that pushed it off the front page.  I don't need to tell you what it was.  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 11:10 AM

Flintlock76

Those last two shots appear to be the "Empire State Express" looking a little rough around the edges.  Look at those mis-matched drivers in the last shot.

Sad thing about the "E-S-E," it made it's debut on December 7th, 1941.  The New York Central hoped to make a splash in the afternoon and evening papers but something else happened 6,000 miles away that Sunday that pushed it off the front page.  I don't need to tell you what it was.   

The legendary Empire State Express of NYCRR was the answer to those successful all-coach trains like the El Capitan of ATSF and PRR's Trail Blazer. Many said NYCRR "only" good at all-Pullman trains market, so they exquisitely designed the E-S-E, something even better than the Mercury. As a Pennsy fan who has a soft spot to PRR's (and many other railroads) betterment cars (rebuilt heavyweight cars), I found the complete newly built, tailor-made E-S-E very attractive, I don't have the chance to see and ride the train in person, but when I look at those scale models of it, I know the train was beyond glorious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:10 PM

I believe that's the official World's Fair song from the '39-'40 Fair they're using in that clip.  

I had not been aware that the principal routing was over the CASO & St. Thomas.  Note only a stub goes to Cleveland.

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:37 PM

Yes indeed the Empire State Express did use CASO rails for its route.  Attached here is a link to a 1947 NYC Timetable.  

Some time ago I posted a 'timeline' series of events of occurances over the years on the CASO and the Empire State Express was mentioned many times.

Of note: I answered a quiz question some time back that asked what passenger trains New York Central utilized the CASO.

I answered "the Empire State Express" and was roundly chastised for that by the 'two men playing chess in the park.. get away from us' syndrome. 

I let it slide and moved on but I knew better. 

Also I never forgot that. So now I'm standing firmly 'on your lawn' and if you don't like it then blow it out your steam cocks.

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/images/tt-0447.pdf

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 6:06 PM

Miningman
So now I'm standing firmly 'on your lawn' and if you don't like it then blow it out your steam cocks.

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:00 PM

So, the Empire State Express used the track leased to NYCRR by CASO after leaving Buffalo to Detroit via St.Thomas

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:57 PM

Jones1945

So, the Empire State Express used the track leased to NYCRR by CASO after leaving Buffalo to Detroit via St.Thomas

 

Yes; the NYC trains between the East and Detroit used the CASO.

Johnny

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:01 AM

Thanks, Johnny.

I found this message from the quiz thread by forum member passengerfan:

 

EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS

New York – Cleveland - Detroit (December 7, 1941)

New York – Cleveland 605 miles

New York – Detroit 687 miles

 The New York Central System inaugurated the two train sets that comprised the lightweight streamlined EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS on December 7, 1941 between New York City at the one end and both Cleveland and Detroit at the other. This date is best remembered as the date the United States Naval base at Pearl Harbor and other military installations in Hawaii were attacked by Imperial Japanese forces plunging the U. S. into WW II.

The Detroit and Cleveland sections of the EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS split at Buffalo with the Detroit section operating across Southern Ontario to its destination. This section was generally anywhere from one to three Parlor cars a dining car and two or more coaches. The remaining cars operated through to and from Cleveland the two New York Central EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS lightweight streamliners departed from their respective terminals and after exchanging their Electric Locomotives at Harmon and the outskirts of Cleveland on the west.

The new J3A streamlined 4-6-4 Hudson Locomotives and Tenders took over for the run to the opposite electrified territory. The two streamlined J3A Hudson Locomotive and tenders were 5426 and 5429 with stainless steel installed on the tenders to match the trailing consists and stainless steel installed on the boiler Jacket cover. The roofs of the otherwise all stainless steel Budd built consists were painted black and the top of the Tender and Locomotive were painted black to match. The EMPIRE STATE EXPRESS consists shown below were between Buffalo and New York City on December 7, 1941. The named cars in each train set were named for former Governors of the State of New York.

FIRST CONSIST

  • 5426 Streamlined J3A 4-6-4 Hudson Locomotive & Tender
  • ALONZO B. CORNELL Baggage 60’ Railway Post Office Car
  • GROVER CLEVELAND Baggage Buffet 36 seat Lounge Car
  • CHARLES E. HUGHES 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • HERBERT H. LEHMAN 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • NATHAN L. MILLER 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • GEORGE CLINTON 44 seat Dining Car
  • REUBEN E. FENTON 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • 2569 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • 2567 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • 2566 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • HAMILTON FISH 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • DEWITT CLINTON 44 seat Dining Car
  • DAVID B. HILL 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • MORGAN LEWIS 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • WILLIAM L. MARCY 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • THEODORE ROOSEVELT 56 seat Tavern Bar Lounge Observation 

SECOND CONSIST

  • 5429 Streamlined J3A 4-6-4 Hudson Locomotive & Tender
  • JOHN A. DIX Baggage 60’ Railway Post Office Car
  • MARTIN VAN BUREN Baggage Buffet 36 seat Lounge Car
  • LEVI P. MORTON 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • ALFRED E. SMITH 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • SAMUEL J. TILDEN 30 Revenue seat Parlor Car with 5 seat Parlor Drawing Room
  • JOHN JAY 44 seat Dining Car
  • 2564 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • EDWIN D. MORGAN 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • 2565 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • 2568 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • WILLIAM H. SEWARD 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • HORATIO SEYMOUR 44 seat Dining Car
  • DANIEL D. TOMPKINS 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • CHARLES S. WHITMAN 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • SILAS WRIGHT 56 Revenue seat Coach
  • FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT 56 seat Tavern Bar Lounge Observation
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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:00 PM

Donor Harwood, Herbert H.

Description: Cleveland Union Terminal Empire State Express leaving East Cleveland.  (Collinwood)

https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/general/id/3622/rec/1

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:55 PM

That CUT motor sure looks "all business," doesn't it?

Formidable!

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