The First Autotrain and Check out that Grill? Door? Window?

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The First Autotrain and Check out that Grill? Door? Window?
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 12:28 AM

107 acq. 11/1949 (ex CNR 15823 Re-engined Cummins 6 cyl. 200 hp) 60' 48 seats Ottawa Car 4/1926 
Lillooet 1950 Ronald S. Ritchie collection

Note: This car hauled flat cars of vehicles between Lillooet and Shalaith due to no road until 1961.

We need to find a picture of that!!

An early and rare doodle bug of sorts. What is that .. a grill? A window? A door?  I think Jones will like it.

 

Pacific Great Eastern

102 (101-103) Hall-Scott 64 foot 8 cyl. 200 HP gas-mechanical. December 1913
Lillooet 1945 Ken Kidder/Bud Laws Collection

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:52 AM

Miningman

We need to find a picture of that!!

An early and rare doodle bug of sorts. What is that .. a grill? A window? A door?  I think Jones will like it.

 

Pacific Great Eastern

102 (101-103) Hall-Scott 64 foot 8 cyl. 200 HP gas-mechanical. December 1913
Lillooet 1945 Ken Kidder/Bud Laws Collection

 

Yes! thank you for the pics, Miningman. Although I would call the Pacific Great Eastern #102 "Art Deco Gone Wrong", I do interested in any size of railcar or railbus as well as those tiny steam locomotive for commute service from any part of the world. The grill remains me of people who wearing a G-string to cover the nose... I hope they are unused Surprise...or the dress Lisa Fischer weared in this music video:

Smile, Wink & Grin Besides the Pennsy version, the following pic is another example of a "streamlined" Hall-Scott doodlebug, I believe Mr.Clark (Peter) knows the detail of it better than me. Coffee

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 11:04 AM

Yeah, the grill on doodlebug 102 looks like a garden gate that someone swiped!

That Hall-Scott doodlebug looks like it's looking for something.

Now in that color shot, WHAT is that big black thing on the roof behind the headlight?  Looks like a radiator on steroids!

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:13 PM

Jones1945
Yes! thank you for the pics, Miningman. Although I would call the Pacific Great Eastern #102 "Art Deco Gone Wrong",   

Art Deco gone wrong, would that be Fart Deco?

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:57 PM

Flintlock76

Now in that color shot, WHAT is that big black thing on the roof behind the headlight?  Looks like a radiator on steroids!

That's exactly what it is. Having the radiator on the roof keeps the heat out of the inside of the car.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, April 02, 2019 3:25 PM

BaltACD

Art Deco gone wrong, would that be Fart Deco?

Well, you know the artist or designer who was responsible for this thing did fart like any other normal human being, so yes! Fart Deco is an appropriate and colorful word to describe the grill thing on PGE #102. Though the Urban Dictionary has another meaning of the term 'Fart Deco'. Drinks

Tags: Fart Deco

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 4:16 PM

So it IS a radiator!  Thanks Erik!

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 4:44 PM

Flintlock76
So it IS a radiator!

Yes, and in many cases it is placed where it is for good 'through' cooling without fans.  Made extra large to avoid any possibility of overheating, with sections being masked off with canvas for colder weather.  This was generally not the best arrangement for extreme weather conditions!

Mind you, I think the fancy 'door grille' on the PGE car is tubes for a radiator; it's about the size and placement a contemporary setup might think necessary.  (In practice you'd want much more, at least at times).  Looking at the amount of radiator cooling provided tells you something about the type of engine (specifically the heat rejection to coolant) and the speeds and loads expected to be handled.

I don't know if the color picture was before or after the rebuild to "200hp" Cummins.  One of our Canadians will know, though.

The first Auto-Train is probably the same general date as the first piggyback.  That's the early 1850s (not a misprint) on the LIRR.  If I remember correctly, some English railroads offered almost from their beginning the option of riding in one's own carriage, on a flatcar, instead of having to use a compartment, and I suspect that service was offered in this country, too.  Mike will know or find out.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 6:03 PM

The Nova Scotia Railway offered a similar service, starting around the same time.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 7:52 PM

Here is Pacific Great Eastern ( what a contradictory name) Doodle bug # 107 as pictured in its original form as CNR gas -electric with its five digit number 15823. 

PGE had 2 ex- Great Northern humongous Doodle bugs numbered along in sequence with our *Art Deco star. Seems they lasted a good long time.

105 acq. May 1920 (ex Morrisey, Fernie & Michel) GE 1913 gas-electric 200 HP 70 foot.
Lillooet 1945 Ken Kidder/Bud Laws Collection

Note: One of two cars ordered by Great Northern 2300, 2301 for subsidiaries Victoria & Sidney 
and Crows Nest Pass Coal Co. Morrisey, Fernie & Michel.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 8:53 PM

Overmod

Mind you, I think the fancy 'door grille' on the PGE car is tubes for a radiator; it's about the size and placement a contemporary setup might think necessary.  (In practice you'd want much more, at least at times).  Looking at the amount of radiator cooling provided tells you something about the type of engine (specifically the heat rejection to coolant) and the speeds and loads expected to be handled.

I am not sure about this, but I can't rule out the possibility. Maybe they were some decorative grills right in front of the radiator...CoffeeHmm

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 04, 2019 11:06 AM

Jones1945
Overmod

Mind you, I think the fancy 'door grille' on the PGE car is tubes for a radiator...

I am not sure about this, but I can't rule out the possibility.

No question from that picture that you have a decorative grille of straps (I think I can see the bolts or rivets holding them!) that mimicks the look of a contemporary automobile -- I would hazard 1936 Chevy as the 'proximate inspiration' if anyone has the time to find a good front-end clip, perhaps from one of the Jam Handy films.  Wonder if the material for the 'bars' is repurposed brake pipe...

That would indicate that the radiator is in the 'open doorway' space, just as the radiator in a car is behind the grille.  I certainly don't see any alternative arrangements on the front of the car.  It may have some kind of side arrangement like that on the Motorailers or the Houston North Shore postwar railbuses.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, April 04, 2019 11:59 AM

Well, Sigmund Freud once said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."  Whistling

Sometimes a grill is just a grill.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 04, 2019 1:08 PM

Flintlock76
Sometimes a grill is just a grill.

By that logic, sometimes a wing is just a wing.

On the other hand, sometimes there's more involved.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, April 04, 2019 3:15 PM

Sometimes a pair of wings on the grill is still a pair of wings on the grill! CoffeeSmile, Wink & Grin

http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/sunday-streamline-58-the-centennial-engine

Overmod

No question from that picture that you have a decorative grille of straps (I think I can see the bolts or rivets holding them!) that mimics the look of a contemporary automobile -- I would hazard 1936 Chevy as the 'proximate inspiration' if anyone has the time to find a good front-end clip, perhaps from one of the Jam Handy films.  Wonder if the material for the 'bars' is repurposed brake pipe...

That would indicate that the radiator is in the 'open doorway' space, just as the radiator in a car is behind the grille.  I certainly don't see any alternative arrangements on the front of the car.  It may have some kind of side arrangement like that on the Motorailers or the Houston North Shore postwar railbuses.

I agree with you that the "fancy" grille thing was created to mimics the grille on a car. It is also a reasonable inference that there is a radiator behind the grille. 

Those are not a pair of wings above the front wheels.Hmm

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, April 04, 2019 4:00 PM

Overmod

 

 
Flintlock76
Sometimes a grill is just a grill.

 

By that logic, sometimes a wing is just a wing.

On the other hand, sometimes there's more involved.

 

Oh yeah, there was more involved all right.  The Motive Power Superintendant of the Lackawanna at the time, Charles Scudder, was crazy about birds.  Not only did that 4-4-0 get the treatment but so did a 4-6-0 and four Pacifics. As soon as he was gone in 1942 so were the wings, but apparantly they were popular with Lackawanna fans.  The wings were made of stainless steel and were scrapped for the war effort.  

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, April 04, 2019 9:26 PM

Out of respect for the departed and steam itself I can only say I'm thinking it looked better in the real world when viewing it that it does in the photos. (Good grief, why?)

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Posted by M636C on Friday, April 05, 2019 3:00 AM

Mt first thought regarding grilles was South Australian Railways No 620....

But Mr Jones has beaten me to it.....

I should point out in respect of the Rolls Royce that colloquial English usage described the front mudguards of a car as "the front wings".... so there are wings above the the front wheels. This usage dated from the 1920s or 1930s and might not be still in use, but the British motor industry is quite conservative. Some of you may be familiar with the British TV series "Minder", with George Cole and Denis Waterman. I thought it was a comedy, but after a day at the Warley model railway show with a group of people from the "motor trade", I realised it was a documentary.

I shall now go off topic....

Today was my last day at work.

My formal farewell was by Rear Admiral Lawrence, Head of Navy Engineering. Commodore Ottaviano (Director General Navy Logistics) and Commodore Dagg (DG Engineering) attended, along with staff from my own area.

I may have earlier mentioned an Australia Day Medallion.

Today I received a Defence Long Service Medal with first clasp (for twenty years) and the Australian Defence Medal (well in theory - the ADM is still in the mail) and a Gold Service Medallion (85mm diameter, in its own polished wooden case) for service from 1970 to 2019. 

More relevantly, a Chocolate Mud cake with a photograph of NSW 3801 printed on the top.

That's it for me today...

Peter

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, April 05, 2019 9:00 AM

Congradulations M636C... errr Peter.

Australia Australia we luv ya 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 05, 2019 9:03 AM

Congratulations on your retirement Peter!  I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as much as I'm enjoying mine.

Surprisingly, the days go by just as fast as when I was running around like a madman.

You know what you'll enjoy most?  If you're like me, it'll be all the "Time to do nothing!"  Sometimes that's more enjoyable than anything else.

Wayne

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 05, 2019 9:46 AM

Miningman
Out of respect for the departed and steam itself I can only say I'm thinking it looked better in the real world when viewing it that it does in the photos. (Good grief, why?)

Otto Kuhler told me a story that he was looking at one of these Lackawanna engines, and made a big show of putting his head up under the shrouding and peering around until some Lackawanna guy asked him what he saw.  He said something like "I was looking for the mechanism that made the wings flap."

The response he got was something akin to Vicky's famous "We are NOT amused..."

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 05, 2019 9:49 AM

M636C
This usage dated from the 1920s or 1930s and might not be still in use, but the British motor industry is quite conservative.

To this day I have not seen anything but the phrase 'wing mirror' to describe fender-mounted mirrors in British automobile reviews.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, April 05, 2019 10:08 AM

Overmod

 

 
Miningman
Out of respect for the departed and steam itself I can only say I'm thinking it looked better in the real world when viewing it that it does in the photos. (Good grief, why?)

 

Otto Kuhler told me a story that he was looking at one of these Lackawanna engines, and made a big show of putting his head up under the shrouding and peering around until some Lackawanna guy asked him what he saw.  He said something like "I was looking for the mechanism that made the wings flap."

The response he got was something akin to Vicky's famous "We are NOT amused..."

 

Yes, Queen Victoria could be quite stately when expressing disgust.

And, there is the account of a time that Prince Albert was unhappy with her and retired to his room. She went to his door and almost demanded, as the Queen, that he open the door. Only when she identified herself as "your own Little Vicky" did he let her in.

Johnny

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, April 05, 2019 2:06 PM

Deggesty

And, there is the account of a time that Prince Albert was unhappy with her and retired to his room. She went to his door and almost demanded, as the Queen, that he open the door. Only when she identified herself as "your own Little Vicky" did he let her in.

Queen Victoria has this reputation as a staid, somewhat prude stone wall of a Monarch, but it should be noted that before his untimely death her marriage to Prince Albert produced nine children.

Hope that bedroom had very thick walls and doors!

Prince Albert was also her first cousin, but I guess such a relationship was considered ok back in those days.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, April 05, 2019 2:22 PM

M636C

Today was my last day at work.

My formal farewell was by Rear Admiral Lawrence, Head of Navy Engineering. Commodore Ottaviano (Director General Navy Logistics) and Commodore Dagg (DG Engineering) attended, along with staff from my own area.

I may have earlier mentioned an Australia Day Medallion.

Today I received a Defence Long Service Medal with first clasp (for twenty years) and the Australian Defence Medal (well in theory - the ADM is still in the mail) and a Gold Service Medallion (85mm diameter, in its own polished wooden case) for service from 1970 to 2019. 

More relevantly, a Chocolate Mud cake with a photograph of NSW 3801 printed on the top.

That's it for me today...

Peter 

Wishing you all the joy and happiness that a happy retirement can bring, Peter. Yes

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, April 05, 2019 2:45 PM

Overmod

...The response he got was something akin to Vicky's famous "We are NOT amused..."

Little Vicky probably never said that, but obviously the royal couple was not easily amused in front of the camera, unlike her mother Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld in many of her portraits in her twenties. 

Queen Victoria’s Palace on Wheels – courtesy of the National Rail Museum

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 05, 2019 4:33 PM

I'm not surprised Victoria and Albert don't look amused in those photographs.  Considering the slow exposure times of 1850's cameras most people couldn't hold a smile very long.  

Victorias private railcar looks fabulous!  Lucius Beebe would have killed for a car like that!

Here's Lucius' ride, the "Virginia City."

www.vcrail.com/virginia_city.htm  

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