Detroit Department of Street Railways, 1947 - 1948

[daveklepper]

 

[daveklepper]

One more:   Rear of Woodward carhouse

 

[daveklepper]

 

v

The above photo is on Wyoming Avenue looking south from a point south of Michigan Avenue.  Here, Wyoming Avenue is the boarder between Detroit, on the left, and Dearborn, on the right.  Westbound Michigan Avenue cars (marked "Through") looped here using the track to the left, while Ford Plant shift-change cars only (marked "Rouge") went south on the Wyoming Avenue tracks to the River Rouge Plant.  Thy Wyoming Avenue Car-house and yard also was here, also accessed  buy the loop track.

 

My brother-in-law (Former Reform Rabbi, Navy Chaplain and then Wayne State U. Philosophy Prof.) Leonard Kasle had succeeded his Dad as Pres. of Kasle Steel, who supplied special steel products to the large automakers.  This was located a few blocks south on the Dearborn sideof the street.  Next door was his brother-in-l;aw's frim, Ben Jones' Jones Iron and Metal, mostly a scrap-yard, where most Detrroit Peter Witts were scapped.

 

Quesrtions for those more familiar with Detroit than me:  1.  Didn't Detroit have the very largest fleet of single-end Petder Witts in North America?  2.  After the second and larger group of PCCs arrived, some displaced the older (1948) PCCs on Woodward, with its through-routing with Jefferson to the east,  and some PCCs of both kinds displaced the Peter Witts on Michigan and Gratiot, thorugh routed.  But I never saw a PCC on Wyoming Avenue.  Was Michigan Avenue shift-change serviceended art the time?

 

[daveklepper]

Kasle Steel was bought out by Steel Technologies, STTX, in 2006.  Jones Iron and Metal has been in Kansas City since 1964, not sure when Dearborn closed or even if it is the same company.  Now deals primarily in structural steel.

 

The two streetcar linjes I used most often when they were running were Fourteen and Trumble.

 

Michigan Central switched both Kasle and Jones.  The local freight was powered by a 2-8-2 with the tender lettered Michigan Central most of the time.   At least one time, an ex-Boston -and-Albany Berkshire showed up.

[daveklepper]

I'm asking for help on the Trains General Forum.  Thanks

 

[daveklepper]

Grand River line's yard

[Miningman]

Thanks for all this Dave. 

City after city losing their Streetcar systems. Quite the fad post war. Now quite the green fad at thousands of time the price and for only a short point to point distance. 

I wonder if there is a calculation, a number, perhaps even a constant that could be plugged in that indicated how many tons of pollutants into the atmosohere were added by tearing up all those Streetcar systems. Replaced by buses and autos, starting say late 40's, all through the 50's and into the early 60's. 

Or how many less tons if we had kept the streetcars running nationwide and across North America instead of buses and individual autos. 

[daveklepper]

One more photo cured of chicken pox, measels, or poison ivy:

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

1. Didn't Detroit have the very largest fleet of single-end Petder Witts in North America?

Detroit had more Peter Witts (781) than many cities had cars.  Cleveland held the number two spot with just over 500, depending on how the 5000 series articulateds get counted. Toronto was a distant number three with 350 motors, though Toronto did have 225 Petre Witt trailers.

Toronto 2890 will re-enter the operating fleet at Seashore Trolley Museum this year.

[daveklepper]

If you count double-enders, which you did include in the Pittsburgh total, then Brooklyn, which like Pittsburgh had bouth and double-enders, is second.  Single end:  6000-6099, 6200-6299, and double-end 8000-8575.  All Brooklyn "Peter Witts," like Pittsburgh's and most of Detroit's were one-man.  Brooklyn could be said to have the most if you add the 5000s (deck-roof) and 5200s (arch-roof), built as pure double-end, center-door two-man-cars, with some not scrapped before running with entrance doors cut into the front corner until the PCCs 1000-1099 were all on line.  Or you could say New York City was first by adding the 75 Broadway Third Avenue Transit Huffliners, 551-625, 551-600 aluminum, 601-625 steel with side corigations.

TATS Hufflineres:

typical of 552-600:

The first sample car, Brill instead of home-built, had center doors opposed, not staggered, visiting Gardner Avenue Mt. Vernon after speed test run on Yonkers Avenue:

555 showing off aluminium construction before standard paint:

Steel, on "K" after "B" bussed:

 

 

 

Brooklyn 5200 with coner door:

,

Back to Detroit and the River Rouge, Dearborn, streetcar terminal at the Ford Factory,served full-time by Baker and at shift-changes by Michigan-Gratiot and Fort-Kercival.

Baker was the last non-PCC line and never had PCCs before being bussed, after which all Ford factory service was bus, mustly the Wyoming Avenue bus.

[daveklepper]

For pictures of the Ford River Rouge Plant terminal, beginning with the inbound track and then views in each direction over the whole four-track terminal.

[daveklepper]

Four pictures of the Ford River Rouge Plant terminal, beginning with the inbound track and then views in each direction over the whole four-track terminal.

 

[Flintlock76]

David's streetcar postings always remind me of the lines from the Joni Mitchell song "Big Yellow Taxi..."

"Don't it always seem to go, and you don't know what you've got till it's gone!"

And now a lot of urban areas are prepared to spend millions to re-create what was, and was thrown away.  Imagine if they put the money into refurbishing them in the 1940's and '50's.   

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Unfortunately, at that time the money would have been wasted.  People were deserting public transit of all kinds in favor of their own automobiles during the postwar prosperity.

[Miningman]

I don't see why we could not have both. 

[MidlandMike]

daveklepper

Four pictures of the Ford River Rouge Plant terminal, beginning with the inbound track and then views in each direction over the whole four-track terminal.

 

 

 

Was it usual for streetcar terminals to have so much fencing between the platform and the tracks they served?  Only the inbound track has an open platform.

[daveklepper]

Most unusual.  I suspect the fencing with gates at the streetcar door locations, was done just before or even during WWII, when crowding on the platforms was common during shift changes and everyone used public transit because of economics and gas rationing.  The pictures are from 1947 and 1948, when many had already switched to driving personal cars and service was reduced accordingly,

Does anyone know of any other streetcar terminal with this sort of fencing?

Similar mutli-track-with-loop streetcar terminals existed in New York City:

Underground at 2nd Ave. and 59th-60th Streets for Queensboro Bridge

Underground at Delancy and Essex Streets for Williamsburg Bridge

Park Row City Hall for Brooklyn Bridge

Coney Island for McDonald Avenue and Coney Island Avenue lines

Underground in Newark, still existing, for Newark City Subway

Cleveland's Public Square had four such terminals with loops!

 East Bay Terminal had high platforms for the three interurban lines and street-level loops for Muni streetcars

None had this kind of fencing

[daveklepper]

New thought.  Could it have been Henry Ford's idea?

[Miningman]

From Dave:

Thanks!   Richard Allman thanked me for DSR pix and sent a pic of his model.

Should these be posted  on the Classic Trains Detroit threat?

There is an old thread (mine) on his layout in the MR Forum.

Not a fan of model pics on Classic but in the case of these two distinguished gentleman how can you resist.

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

[Flintlock76]

Vince, I doubt very much it's a "mortal sin" to post trolley models on the CT site, I'm sure most will find it interesting.

I've got several myself I run on the O gauge layout.  An Atlas Public Service, an Lionel Bergen County Transit, an MTH Jersey Transit PCC, a Bowser VTC car and an MTH one as well, limited run club collector cars.

By the way VTC stands for "Virginia Train Collectors,"  but we all fudge it a bit and say it means "Virginia Transit Company!"

Transit Gloria Mundi!

Wayne

[Overmod]

daveklepper

I suspect the fencing with gates at the streetcar door locations, was done just before or even during WWII

I'd be more inclined to find it being related to the labor unrest in the 1930s, when protecting access to the plant from this or other mass transit might have been somewhat 'difficult'.

[daveklepper]

The arrivals' platform was open without fencing.

[daveklepper]

[Miningman]

2 More

[daveklepper]

Page 118 of Cox's Birney Book mentions the DSR's one-off Birney replacement, here photographed at the Michigan-and-Wyoming yard in 1948. 

[SD60MAC9500]

 

I haven't been to Cobo Hall in some years. There was still a section of DSR track embedded in Washington Blvd. that ran for about 100 yards. I'm sure it's been tore out since Washington Blvd. was resurfaced some years ago.

 

[daveklepper]

But Woodward Avenue has real-use streetcar tracks again.

Just call it light rail.

[daveklepper]

 

The Peter-Witt heading toward the camera will turn left on Wyoming Avenue for the rush-hour and shift-change extension of the Michigan Avenue line to the Ford River-Rouge plant.  The car wirh the blind side in the view is on the regular turn-back loop.

 

[daveklepper]

I first visited Detroit, with my parents, in January 1942.  We used the Empire State Express both ways.  Even at going on age 10 I explored the streetcar lines, but without a camera.  The Woodward Avenue Line at that time ran at least all the way to Royal Oak.  Possibly even as far a Birmingham, But I did not have time to go beyond Royal Oak before turning back to be in time for dinner.

After WWII, the line was cust back to 8-Mile Road, where a chrt-turn loop was already  in use, and a covered interchsnge station to buses constructed, as in the 1947 picture.  A year PCCs replaced the Peter Witts, and shown on an earlier posting.