We are a small group of expats living in Vietnam and are working on a website about the history of the railways of Indochina & Vietnam and are of course struggling with incomplete locomotive rosters and general lack of documentation etc. etc.
One of the mysteries is a meter gauge (very light) 460 locomotive (3 pcs ) that were supplied to CF Indochine by Mitsui company in 1916.
https://jnsforum.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2021_08/230-100-Mitsui_1916.jpg.607e507a946b0187c3f3eabc8ddf8a3c.jpg
(None of the locomotives survived and so far no photo found. )
There were a lot similarish 460s sold to different Brazilian railways in those times, so maybe this one could be related ?
And you are of course welcome to explore the biggest ever Indochina/Vietnam collection of railway related photos and infos on
https://www.flickr.com/photos/189316830@N03/
rgds, Janez
Baldwin Steam Locomotives Being Loaded for Export, 1929
(I was informed that some of our forum members unable to log on to various Trains.com forums again since last week. I hope that the appropriate department can fix the problem asap, thank you very much!)
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Thank you very much, BaltACD. "The Great India Railway" is the DVD I own.
I am glad to know that steam trains service in India is resumed, running between Farukhnagar and Garhi Harsaru:
Jones1945Firelock76: I think I have the DVD of the documentary you mentioned! I bought it in a book fair around 2006, so maybe it is another documentary by National Geographic.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Possibly Mr. Jones. It's been a while since I've seen that NatGeo documentary, I don't remember everything about it, but I've never forgotten the Indian steam and that Indian railroader.
If I remember correctly they also showed an Indian "dress up the steam locomotives" festival. Some of the decorations they put on those locomotives were pretty clever and elaborate!
Firelock76: I think I have the DVD of the documentary you mentioned! I bought it in a book fair around 2006, so maybe it is another documentary by National Geographic.
You know, love for steam is pretty much universal. Years back, I think it was in the 90's, I was watching a National Geographic documentary on India and one of the topics covered was the Indian railways transition from steam to diesel. A lot of the Indian railroaders were not too happy about it, like they were losing some trusted old friends.
One did a remarkable impression of a steam locomotive getting underway and picking up speed as it left the station, his sound effects were amazing, and he was almost in tears as he finished.
Yeah, steam should have lived on for another generation, say 25 years. It could easily have happened, it did elsewhere. Then who knows what advancements we create. So close, so close.
Miningman Posing for the photographer. Definately not the normal work force! This is either 1200 or 1201 under final construction at Angus Shops. 1944
Posing for the photographer. Definately not the normal work force! This is either 1200 or 1201 under final construction at Angus Shops. 1944
Looks like they were decorating a Christmas Tree. I like this photo!
The last of a dying breed. 600 were ordere.. then Diesels happened. 100 got built. There are similarities to the India built Pacific's.
Canadian Pacific Railway
G5 Class 4-6-2 1200-1301
Cylinders 20" x 28" Drv. 70" Press. 250 lbs. t.e. 34,000 Tender 14 tons coal, 8,000 gallons water.
Modern Pacific type dual service locomotives intended to replace hundreds of older Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers. Two prototypes were built by Angus Shops (one for Western Lines and one for Eastern Lines). Orders for 100 were placed with MLW and CLC out of a planned 600 were all that happened due to dieselization.
Preserved: 1201, 1238, 1246, 1278, 1286, 1293. Note: 1293 said to have received a new boiler in 1952.
New G5's 1241 1242 1243 1244 and 1246 all lined up for the photographer. Outremont 1946 Canadian Pacific Railway/Steve Morris Collection
Here she is! The first G5 brand new at Angus Shops. April 1944 CPR/Bruce Chapman CollectionNote: 1200 and 1201 were the only G5's equipped with a Worthington Feedwater Heater.
... And here is a picture of what must be almost the last of the Mikes built for a North American road
163 last PGE steam locomotive part of two engine order. CLC 2409 October 1947. CLC photo. Cyl. 20" x 30" Drv. 57" Press. 225 lbs. t.e. 40,300 tender same as first order.
Jones1945 The 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s built for Madras & South Mahratta in 1924 The 2-6-6-2s built for Northwestern Railway in 1923
The 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s built for Madras & South Mahratta in 1924
The 2-6-6-2s built for Northwestern Railway in 1923
These are all broad gauge locomotives as can be seen from the buffers.
Baldwin built two Pacifics numbered 900-901 and two Mikados numbered 998-999 for the MSMR, all in 1924. These became 37000-37001 and 37022-37023 in the All India renumbering. They were known as class HP and HG respectively.
The Mallet was supplied to the NWR as a single locomotive No 460 in 1923.
It was tested with a 2-6-2+2-6-2 Beyer-Garratt No 480 built in 1925 on the heavily graded section up to the frontier with Afghanistan. These two locomotives were both found to slip excessively and it was decided to continue with a 2-8-0 front and rear of each train. Both 460 and 480 were out of service by 1939 and neither were taken into stock by Pakistan in 1947.
Peter
They were beautiful indeed. I especially like those "vintage" style shutter on the cab and the tender. I guess it was a tradition feature of India steam locomotives. US folks might not interested in their small Pacifics and Mikados due to their "British Styling" appearance.
The quantity of India's homemade steam engine was impressive, but this also implies that they didn't need foreign made steam engine anymore.
A beautiful engine, somewhat reminiscent of the CPR G5 classes built after the war and even the 2 built for the PGE around 1948.
Gotta luv that tender.
Jones1945 (This photo was heavily touched up but unfinished by Baldwin) Note that little sliding window on the tender.
(This photo was heavily touched up but unfinished by Baldwin)
Note that little sliding window on the tender.
These locomotives are the standard post WWII metre gauge mainline locomotives classes YP (4-6-2) and YG (2-8-2). The YG was basically the USATC loco with a larger boiler and cylinders, and the boiler was shared with the Pacific. The Y prefix indicated metre gauge while W indicated broad gauge.
Baldwin built 20 Pacifics and 120 Mikados.
In all there were 871 Pacifics and 1441 Mikados, mostly built in India
The tender illustrated is one of four built with a cast steel water bottom frame.
I hadn't seen a photo of one before.
My details are from Hugh Hughes "Indian Locomotives Volume 4".
Miningman .....you could also say " stretch their legs".
.....you could also say " stretch their legs".
I remember there is an important movie line for Captain Smith in the movie Titanic(1998) "...Take her to sea, Mr. Murdoch. Let's stretch her legs!..."; a movie which I was forced to watch with a different group of people for at least 4 times in 1998. Kate Winslet showed us more than legs stretching and I saw Mr. Murdoch shot himself 4 times. It is a nice movie but I still prefer Lucy to Kate Winslet. I might have found Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour on the Lusitania.
M636C It was a rather large overseas order from India, I wonder if Baldwin ever fight for more quota or they couldn't handle more at the time. The most likely reason that Baldwin received less of the WP production order was that orders from Baldwin required US Dollars while orders from Canada could be paid for in Sterling (British Pounds). This shows up in the orders for Indian AWD and CWD 2-8-2s. Baldwin supplied 225 in 1944 and 1945 Canadian built 250 between 1943 and 1949 Montreal built 337 between 1943 and 1948 These were based on the locomotives built for use by the British Army in Africa and the middle east. Peter
It was a rather large overseas order from India, I wonder if Baldwin ever fight for more quota or they couldn't handle more at the time.
The most likely reason that Baldwin received less of the WP production order was that orders from Baldwin required US Dollars while orders from Canada could be paid for in Sterling (British Pounds).
This shows up in the orders for Indian AWD and CWD 2-8-2s.
Baldwin supplied 225 in 1944 and 1945
Canadian built 250 between 1943 and 1949
Montreal built 337 between 1943 and 1948
These were based on the locomotives built for use by the British Army in Africa and the middle east.
Thank you very much for the list, Peter. It clearly shows that Baldwin did earn some good money from India in the 1940s, although they were light Pacifics and Mikados, the quantity was considerable! Before we move forward to the early history of Baldwin's export steam locomotive for India. Let's take a look at these export steam locomotive! ( These photos were taken between 1948-1950)
Railway Network of India before independence.
https://www.themaparchive.com/indian-rail-network-1930.html
I wonder what a narrow gauge T1 without streamlining would have looked like! But I guess there was no track for such high-speed locomotive to spread their...............wings in India.
Baldwin steam locomotive export to China in 1926
SN class 0-10-0 600mm gauge locomotive served in Jijie-Gejiu line for 65 years, Southwest China.
http://florian-grupp.de/en/fotos.html
Pre-war passenger cars?
(wiki)
"SN-29 steam locomotive, built by Baldwin Locomotive Works in Philadelphia in 1923. It operated on the 600 mm gauge Ge-Bi-Shi railway between 1926-1991. Presently on display in the Yunnan Railway Museum (Kunming North Railway Station). At least three members of the class are known to be preserved. No.23 is currently displayed in the China Railway Museum (Beijing), while No.26 is in the Shanghai Railway Museum[4], No.29 is in the Yunnan Railway Museum"
www.kurogane-rail.jp
M636C Looking at the first three photographs, two distinct versions of the locomotive can be seen. The first and third photos represent locomotives 7200 to 7215 built in 1947 The second photo represents the "production" locomotives built in 1949 numbered from 7216 upward. The first batch, later known as class WP/P (for prototype) had conical casings over the smokebox door with a smaller opening section to access the smokebox door. This made them more closely resemble the New Haven I-5 "Shoreliner" locomotives, and even more the 1943 New South Wales streamlined C38 class which had many features in common. Three hundred locomotives were built in 1949, 100 from Baldwin, 80 from Canadian, and 120 from Montreal. Canadian later supplied another 120 as aid under the Colombo plan in 1955-56.
Looking at the first three photographs, two distinct versions of the locomotive can be seen. The first and third photos represent locomotives 7200 to 7215 built in 1947 The second photo represents the "production" locomotives built in 1949 numbered from 7216 upward.
The first batch, later known as class WP/P (for prototype) had conical casings over the smokebox door with a smaller opening section to access the smokebox door. This made them more closely resemble the New Haven I-5 "Shoreliner" locomotives, and even more the 1943 New South Wales streamlined C38 class which had many features in common.
Three hundred locomotives were built in 1949, 100 from Baldwin, 80 from Canadian, and 120 from Montreal. Canadian later supplied another 120 as aid under the Colombo plan in 1955-56.
Thank you very much, Peter! If you didn't point it out, I wouldn't notice the first 16 prototypes had a different, stylish front end design. The really looked like New Haven I-5 and NSW C38 with their "flying saucer" style smokebox door.
It was a rather large overseas order from India, I wonder if Baldwin ever fight for more quota or they couldn't handle more at the time. By the way, I need some time to study about the un-streamlined batch before posting.
By Historical Railway Images at flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/24928679134
Alive and kicking:
http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/sunday-streamline-72-star-of-india
Thanks for all this M636C, Peter. Great information.
I found some pics of Indian locomotive class WP from rrmuseumpa. 116 out of 755 of these streamlined locomotives were built by Baldwin from 1947 - 1949, another 300 were built in Canada from 1949 - 1959.
Sixty more came from European builders in 1957-59 with lower numbers starting at 7000. All the remainder in block ending at 7754 in 1966 were built at Chiittaranjan in India.
The WP was the heavier of the two standard Pacific designs. The lighter was class WL which had a smaller boiler and smaller cylinders and was not streamlined. these were numbered 15000 to 15009, 15014 to 15107. These were built from 1955 to 1968. The original 10 were at first numbered 7785 to 7794, just above the WP class.
I just read about the world's first true Pacific 4-6-2: NZR Q Class (1901). It is a surprise to me that the first Pacific was built for NZR. Wiki says Baldwin Built 111 steam locomotives for NZR and the WMR since 1879. But British companies were the top suppliers all along.
Overmod Penny Trains Is it just me, or does the loco closest to the camera have a "comb over headlight" like a Dreyfuss Hudson? That locomotive is like the other ones; what you see is the shadow of the beam immediately above. (Like the cool "paint job' on Mr. Klepper's ART reefer picture on the other thread...) Perhaps the greatest export triumph for Baldwin was the power built for the Wellington and Manawatu in New Zealand.
Penny Trains Is it just me, or does the loco closest to the camera have a "comb over headlight" like a Dreyfuss Hudson?
That locomotive is like the other ones; what you see is the shadow of the beam immediately above. (Like the cool "paint job' on Mr. Klepper's ART reefer picture on the other thread...)
Perhaps the greatest export triumph for Baldwin was the power built for the Wellington and Manawatu in New Zealand.
The Wellington and Manawatu certainly had interesting locomotives, and the last two 4-6-0s, 19 and 20, NZR class Ud were quite impressive.
But the NZR had many more Baldwin locomotives than the W&M, the two classes of Baldwin Pacific, the Q and Aa totalled 23, more locomotives than the W&M ever owned. There were twenty Ub class ten wheelers from Baldwin which, while not as large or fast as the Uds, lasted much longer and earned their keep.
The W&M was a private railway and had a measure of support from those who opposed Government ownership.
But Baldwin earned more from the NZR, and the Q as one of the first true Pacifics was more influential than anything on the W&M.
Overmod Perhaps the greatest export triumph for Baldwin was the power built for the Wellington and Manawatu in New Zealand.
I learned something "new" today!
Source:Wiki
If you are talking about the NZR OA and OC class, I agree that their TE figures were compelling for export engines used in New Zealand. 13,175 lbf for OA class, 15,110 lbf for OC class. Another two was NZR UD class built in 1904, TE was 15,280 lbf. I think I need to invest some more time in early steam locomotives!
( Missed the NZR Q class (1901), "the first locomotives in the world to be built with the wheel arrangement of 4-6-2", TE was 18,340 lbf )
Penny TrainsIs it just me, or does the loco closest to the camera have a "comb over headlight" like a Dreyfuss Hudson?
M636CBaldwin locomotives were exported to many British Dominions after the Columbian Exhibition in Philadelphia in 1876. Three Australian states had locomotives simiar to those exhibited delivered by 1879 and many other locomotives followed. Peter
Three Australian states had locomotives simiar to those exhibited delivered by 1879 and many other locomotives followed.
Thanks, Peter. This is a drawing of a CRNJ 4-4-0 at the Philadelphia Exhibition in 1876:
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1876ev22-p104a.jpg
Baldwin locomotives were exported to many British Dominions after the Columbian Exhibition in Philadelphia in 1876.
Penny Trains Wow! How'd you like to be a passenger on this ship! Is it just me, or does the loco closest to the camera have a "comb over headlight" like a Dreyfuss Hudson?
Wow! How'd you like to be a passenger on this ship!
Is it just me, or does the loco closest to the camera have a "comb over headlight" like a Dreyfuss Hudson?
No worries, Penny Trains! these machines wouldn't be sweating even though the cargo hold was packed like sardines! But the smell of the fresh primer might made people felt dizzy if the door of the cargo hold was closed!
It probably took the ship more than one month to travel from the States to India. If I was a crew on this ship, I would have slept inside the cab of these locomotives firebox or smokebox if they were not blocked. If I got fired for this, I will leave the ship and worked as a steam train engineer until 1970s!
I can't see the comb over headlight thing you mentioned. I think it was the shadow makes the engine you see looks different. Speaking of Dreyfuss Hudson, I wonder how the work shop in India would have painted and decorated the Hudsons with their unique India styling. : )
The ship used to take these Baldwin products to India.
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