[ POLL ] Which front-end design of EMD E series do you prefer?

[M636C]

BaltACD

Always have found it odd, that companies went to the effort to streamline locomotives only to couple them to Vanderbilt style tenders - Party in front and business in back?

Having read somewhere about the streamlining of the 6400 type, there was an emphasis on improving smoke clearance as much as looking "modern" and this design was tested in a wind tunnel to check for improved visibility from the cab. Clearly the tender didn't affect this aspect.

Peter

[BaltACD]

Always have found it odd, that companies went to the effort to streamline locomotives only to couple them to Vanderbilt style tenders - Party in front and business in back?

[M636C]

Posted by Overmod on Thursday, October 04, 2018 9:06 PM

 

 

M636C

But on 6401 the boiler appears to match the green stripe, and not the smokebox.

 

 

If I remember correctly, it was a blue stripe (for the Royal train) not a green one, although the dyes in the color pix I've seen might have shifted.  And I do NOT see the boiler being anything but black in this picture:

But 6401 had no Royal Insignia, and was still lettered CN so is most likely to be green and black. What is hard to tell is exactly which areas were green and which black. I think CPR had a standard Hudson on its pilot train, to take over if the the blue one failed (which it didn't).

I am amazed at the collection of illustrations Jones 1945 has found, but none of them indicate 6400 in Royal Train colours in a real colour photo.

The silver boiler on the hand coloured green 6401, like the CN painiting of the blue loco with a silver boiler gives room for some doubt in that the hand colourist may have seen the real thing....

Peter

[Miningman]

Thanks for all that Jones1945. 

The streamlined Northerns highballed past our station in Burlington, Ontario frequently. While many trains stopped these felllas never did. Folks milling about on the platforms paralleling the inside tracks waiting for their train would be in for a real treat or freightening shock when the 6400's roared by all raw power, always on the outside tracks,  a very impressive sight.

My first encounter with them was this way and I was held captive by the moment, its such a vivid memory. 

You know, I can't help but think that the railroads really knew what they doing back then. It was important and permanent. It was for all of  us, it was service that could be counted on, all the time. It all worked so well, with great good people. We lost too much too quickly. It's just not like that any more.

The streamlined Northerns would take your breath away and capture your imagination. A person was frozen in the moment. 

[Jones1945]

 

 

 

 

 

 

All pics are direct linked, credits and sources in the pics link. Bon week-end ~~!

[Miningman]

You would think somewhere in the deep dusty archives in Ottawa there remains one definitive colour picture in some obscure file. 

[Overmod]

M636C

But on 6401 the boiler appears to match the green stripe, and not the smokebox.

If I remember correctly, it was a blue stripe (for the Royal train) not a green one, although the dyes in the color pix I've seen might have shifted.  And I do NOT see the boiler being anything but black in this picture:

whereas the case for the Royal Hudson does support lighter-colored cleading

and I'm sure miningman's 'correspondent' can come up with all sorts of good pictures and description.

[M636C]

Russia iron is not 'silver', although this appears to be a fairly common impression; neither is it oxide bluing of any kind.  It is a kind of mottled green color

I wasn't suggesting that it was silver.

It is, as usually presented, highly polished and would probably reflect a blue shade on a fine day. We know that the CPR Royal Train locomotive had stainless steel (or something like that). It is pretty clear that 6400 was polished. But the boiler doesn't seem to match the smokebox in the B&W photos. It could be that both were black but with different types of paint for the two locations. But on 6401 the boiler appears to match the green stripe, and not the smokebox.

Peter

[Miningman]

'Nuff said!

[Firelock76]

CSSHEGEWISCH

 

Miningman

A real Bulldog nose styling before being applied to Diesel.

 

 

 

 

An E8A looks a lot better.

 

Sorry bro, no it doesn't.  E8's look good, I'll grant you that, but no as good as that Canadian masterpiece!  That machine just exhudes power!

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Miningman

A real Bulldog nose styling before being applied to Diesel.

 

An E8A looks a lot better.

[Overmod]

I don't think any 6400, or its more attractively valanced counterpart on the Grand Trunk, had other than black boiler cleading in service, and I think that applies to Royal train service (the "silver" color in the painting being, I think, artistic license for sunlight on shiny black paint).

Russia iron is not 'silver', although this appears to be a fairly common impression; neither is it oxide bluing of any kind.  It is a kind of mottled green color, shown in some of the relevant threads on RyPN where extensive forensics on how to produce it, or its American 'commercial' variant (which used a very different process from the original!), have been conducted.  I believe we have had topics on it here, too.

[M636C]

Miningman

A real Bulldog nose styling before being applied to Diesel.

6400 beautifully restored, it was part of Railway Week in Belleville, Ont. June 23-28,1964. 

Preserved at the National Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa. 

---

 

 

I'm not happy that that scheme matches the way the locomotives were painted prior to the Royal train:

If you go to:

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cnr_steam2/royal.htm

and scroll down to the photo of 6401, apparently in green on the pilot train at Brockville, the only part of the valance forward of the cylinders  that was green was the stripe. Also it appears that the boiler aft of the smokebox is green, separated by a thin (yellow?) stripe.

Although the hand coloured three quarter view shows the  boiler cladding as black, the CN painting above suggests silver or "Russia Iron" (the CPR Royal Train Hudson had stainless steel). The B&W photo of 6400 below the hand coloured thre quarter also suggests a colour other than black on the 6400 as painted for the Royal Train.

Is it possible that up to 1939 no 6400 had a black boiler?

Peter

 

[Miningman]

The Dude with the 20 foot jump shot for three!

( I've never seen the blue in a photo)

[SD70Dude]

Green is good, but I've always preferred royal blue, silver and gold, with a matching train of course:

https://ingeniumcanada.org/scitech/img/gallery/cstm/artifact-1967-0001-steam-locomotive-canadian-national-cstmc-garth-wilson-gallery2.jpg

https://ingeniumcanada.org/innovation/sites/default/files/legacy/2015/04/6400-locomotive-front-view1.jpg

[Miningman]

A real Bulldog nose styling before being applied to Diesel.

6400 beautifully restored, it was part of Railway Week in Belleville, Ont. June 23-28,1964. 

Preserved at the National Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa. 

---

 

[Jones1945]

Overmod

I'm tempted to note that if you don't talk about it, no one will figure out how to fix it... or improve customer service details if warranted.

My immediate recommendation is that you set up a proper virtualization environment and then download and implement Windows XP Mode.  That gives older or cranky software a familiar sandbox to play in.  On some older computers this produces a performance 'hit', but rendering the equivalent of PDF pages off a DVD-ROM is not exactly bandwidth-intensive.

There are considerably important articles in the late '60s (for example, the discussion of Giesl ejectors), the '70s (Withuhn conjugated duplexing and a considerable number of modern-steam articles), and the '80s (Le Massena on Niagaras, HPIT, etc.  You never know until you read ... and it's there for the reading.

Sure, I prefer bound copies for 'serendipitous perusing' -- but full-text search is an attractive feature, even if it doesn't always work reliably.  And storage and access are greatly facilitated!

Thanks, Overmod, the problem I mentioned was never fixed after months and tons of auto reply emails from another "digital books hosting service provider", at last I simply buy one more digital copy from that "digital books hosting service provider" instead of waiting  "you know who" to fix the problem for me and I got the digital copy on the  "digital books hosting service provider" instead of "you know who". I didn't request a refund and not going to since it was not a large amount of money and I don't have mood to do it. It wasn't technical problem on my end I am quite sure.

The full-text search feature is really really attractive to me, if there are any reader using window 10 and willing to the share their experience I am gonna get one, I guess my family members could help me to figure it out as well if there will be any problem. Thank you for your help!

[Overmod]

Jones1945

I note the link "Important information about Windows 10 compatibility", I have been using Window 10 for a while, I wish there won't be any problem since I had some “not so smooth” experience when I purchasing the “Steam Glory 3” from “you know who”, put I don’t want to talk about it openly.

I'm tempted to note that if you don't talk about it, no one will figure out how to fix it... or improve customer service details if warranted.

My immediate recommendation is that you set up a proper virtualization environment and then download and implement Windows XP Mode.  That gives older or cranky software a familiar sandbox to play in.  On some older computers this produces a performance 'hit', but rendering the equivalent of PDF pages off a DVD-ROM is not exactly bandwidth-intensive.

There are considerably important articles in the late '60s (for example, the discussion of Giesl ejectors), the '70s (Withuhn conjugated duplexing and a considerable number of modern-steam articles), and the '80s (Le Massena on Niagaras, HPIT, etc.  You never know until you read ... and it's there for the reading.

Sure, I prefer bound copies for 'serendipitous perusing' -- but full-text search is an attractive feature, even if it doesn't always work reliably.  And storage and access are greatly facilitated!

[Jones1945]

Overmod

Have they stopped issuing the Complete Collection now? 

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/dvd/15100

Not to advocate this (except that I'm still irritated with their making the Collection incompatible with all modern generations of Macintosh, then not replacing the defective product discs after 'solving' the issue for new customers) but you might find someone with the Collection who would e-mail you a couple of screen grabs with the article pages, if you don't want to spring for your own set.  (It is very, very, very worthwhile having it)

Wow thank you for the link, Overmod. I didn't know this before. I note the link "Important information about Windows 10 compatibility", I have been using Window 10 for a while, I wish there won't be any problem since I had some “not so smooth” experience when I purchasing the “Steam Glory 3” from “you know who”, put I don’t want to talk about it openly. It would be great if they could divide the set from 70 years to seven separate part. Issues from 1940 to 1960 are what I really want tbh.

[Jones1945]

daveklepper

My all-time favorite passenger diesel locomotive , on looks, has always been the Burlington's E-5s, with the original sloping prow also used on E-3s through E-6s, and lots of stainless steel to match the stainless steel Budd consists.

 But if I were designing a diesel main-line excursion train, obviously I'd want an E-9for the best performance and reliability or even better yet, rebuilt executive units with the latest Progres Rail stuff that would fit.

 

CB&Q really put a lot effort on their legendry E-5s, even the engine trucks were skirted. They were best match of their Budd built stainless steel consists; from front end to the observation car, the train looked shinny and consistent. The beauty of them reminds me of the Empire State Express of 1941.

[Overmod]

Jones1945

I would like to get a copy of this, but I am afraid it won't be easy to find one.  Back issues of Trains before 2004 can only be found on eBay or Amazon ...

Have they stopped issuing the Complete Collection now? 

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/dvd/15100

Not to advocate this (except that I'm still irritated with their making the Collection incompatible with all modern generations of Macintosh, then not replacing the defective product discs after 'solving' the issue for new customers) but you might find someone with the Collection who would e-mail you a couple of screen grabs with the article pages, if you don't want to spring for your own set.  (It is very, very, very worthwhile having the set, though.)

[Jones1945]

M636C

I mentioned earlier Professor Marre's article.

It was in Trains for December 1971 ("The Tenth All-Diesel Issue") pages 38 to 47.

I don't know if you could still get this as a back issue...

It only dealt with types E-3, E-4, E-5 and E-6 and had brief historical tabulation of each unit.

The E-3s in particular were apparently limited in production, so each customer got two each, except ACL who got one, and KCS who got three (although one of those was the demonstrator.)

Peter

 

Thank you very much, Peter. I would like to get a copy of this(..........Deleted Message................... )I remember you mentioned about a issue of Milestone about S1, it is probably the last book or article I need to find but I am still searching on and off. 

[daveklepper]

Regarding the B&O film:   Great nostalgia....  But really, heavy steel rails sagging under the weight of the train?   Hope they did not sag very much!

Editor was needed!

[M636C]

I mentioned earlier Professor Marre's article.

It was in Trains for December 1971 ("The Tenth All-Diesel Issue") pages 38 to 47.

I don't know if you could still get this as a back issue...

It only dealt with types E-3, E-4, E-5 and E-6 and had brief historical tabulation of each unit.

The E-3s in particular were apparently limited in production, so each customer got two each, except ACL who got one, and KCS who got three (although one of those was the demonstrator.)

Peter

[daveklepper]

My all-time favorite passenger diesel locomotive , on looks, has always been the Burlington's E-5s, with the original sloping prow also used on E-3s through E-6s, and lots of stainless steel to match the stainless steel Budd consists.

 But if I were designing a diesel main-line excursion train, obviously I'd want an E-9for the best performance and reliability or even better yet, rebuilt executive units with the latest Progres Rail stuff that would fit.

[Jones1945]

Overmod

Alas! 

Welcome to 1950s, Overmod. The influence of Art Deco was fading or you can say long gone, product design was keep evolving and trying to break free from prewar styling, from a washing machine to EMD’s diesel engine, from an apartment building to the livery of a prime trains, many things were simplified...... cost-cutting, efficiency-oriented, minimize or removal of all beautiful elements and fine details bit by bit. It was colorful as always, but definitely not the color I would pick; many things were still streamlined, but not in a form that would attract me. Where is my S1 Duplex? where is my Maybach Zeppelin DS8 Stromlinien and Delage D8? where is my SS Normandie? They gone for good and will never come back.

 Alas! 

 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

By the way, I remember PRR did have a plan to develop a 7500hp or above electric locomotive, but it got cancelled, I wonder if this is one of her renderings.

A few pages later in the brochure (following, in fact, a page with the performance of a 7500hp continuous electric graphed out) is this:

which shows the Westinghouse theory at this moment in the late '40s - a modular construction using identical B trucks, presumably with span bolsters and in much the same fashion as the EL-2B.  This didn't last very long; we see Baldwin and Westinghouse going to trimounts for this kind of work within just a few years.

Note that there is a pair of very beautiful, streamlined smoke deflectors on the front end, and the size of that rounded smokestack reminds me of S2's modification in late 1947, so I think it was a rendering created in late 40s.

This was a pretty awful period for locomotive styling (think those C&O yellowbellies, definitely an acquired taste!) as some of the other renderings in this 1948 brochure rather dramatically show.  (See the "GG1" with the bulbous City of LA-style nose in old UP color palette for one of the ghastlier attempts.)

I bet the target buyer was Pennsy.

The target buyer by that point was probably anyone except Pennsy, which had given up on that style of turbine and was looking elsewhere for any coal-burning technology.  It does make you wonder whether there was a Q1-like nose in the original S2 design somewhere, which with other shrouding tin was left off a la N&W J1 for wartime reasons...

Both trucks looks longer than normal 4-wheel truck which made the engines and boiler looks larger and well proportioned.

Alas! what you're looking at here is an airbrushed S2 which has had the center axle detail of the 6-wheel trucks rather clumsily retouched.  I suspect it would be difficult to equalize the trucks 'as shown' and the wheel locations relative to the presumable pivot and rear centering points are decidedly less than dynamically 'optimal' as is the rigid truck wheelbase.  A practical turbine might even be a 2-8-4 design (as there is little augment to be 'steered out')

 

[/quote]

[Jones1945]

Overmod

Well, can I interest you in a true double-cab single-unit EL-2B as a fantasy PRR passenger engine?  (Sharknose to boot!)

 

Definitely! Overmod. I would request the designer to further improving the front-end set-back design! By the way, I remember PRR did have a plan to develop a 7500hp or above electric locomotive, but it got cancelled, I wonder if this is one of her renderings.

 

Overmod

This out of the same Westinghouse brochure that has this (I think you can guess how they got the details!):

Thanks again to Dr. Leonard for putting the brochure freely on the Web, in such an accessible format.

Agree! The first time I found this rendering from Dr. Leonard's site, I felt like I discovered a hidden treasure under the ground of my backyard! The design was probably done by Baldwin's designer who designed the New Haven I5, but the design of the boiler's "skyline" looks like Raymond Loewy's work. Note that there is a pair of very beautiful, streamlined smoke deflectors on the front end, and the size of that rounded smokestack reminds me of S2's modification in late 1947, so I think it was a rendering created in late 40s. It was painted in dark green with golden stripes with a headlight above the bullet nose and rounded cab windows, I bet the target buyer was Pennsy. Both trucks looks longer than normal 4-wheel truck which made the engines and boiler looks larger and well proportioned. 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

I always imagine GN W-1 as a fantasy PRR passenger engine.

Well, can I interest you in a true double-cab single-unit EL-2B as a fantasy PRR passenger engine?  (Sharknose to boot!)

This out of the same Westinghouse brochure that has this (I think you can guess how they got the details!):

Thanks again to Dr. Leonard for putting the brochure freely on the Web, in such an accessible format.

 

 

[Jones1945]

Overmod

And one of the few things more impressive than a Joe was a GN W-1

Still more impressive are these (but you have to make allowances for them always operating in pairs to satisfy the 'double-cab' condition)

GG1s and the like are bidirectional but don't have "end" cabs so probably don't count; there were PRR experimental GE and Westinghouse electric cab units in the early Fifties that normally ran in pairs but didn't really constitute 'double-cab locomotives' in the sense you're asking.

I always imagine GN W-1 as a fantasy PRR passenger engine. If the side body was a few inches lower, it would be perfect. It was just slightly more powerful than GG1 in terms of HP/DBHP but the TE was almost a double of GG1. Cool!