[ POLL ] Which front-end design of EMD E series do you prefer?

[Miningman]

That's quite an interesting arraignment for a shop switcher as well as the cheap-0 buffers!

[Jones1945]

M636C

I may have underestimated the number of tyres:

Check out

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=TPfyWSmr&id=292EABFEDAF871629F6BE56410FF54F9724D210A&thid=OIP.TPfyWSmrM4BU5m5gGq43JwHaFF&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fforum.e-train.fr%2ftrains%2fdownload%2ffile.php%3fid%3d244571&exph=549&expw=800&q=sncf+230k+locomotive&simid=608049354683515083&selectedIndex=91&ajaxhist=0

There seem to be four more tyres acting as buffers on the end cars. There were at least two mild steel sets as well as the stainless steel set(s)?

Peter

Haha! I found some pics of a scale model trainset of it. I guess the riding quality must be quite good on seamless rail. But if they were not running on seamless rail, it could be annoying for the passenger when two ten-wheel truck hit the switches and seams between rails; even they had thin tyres on it. 

From: http://www.est-modeles.com/crbst_2.html

https://www.connaissance-du-rail.com/reportages-et-photos/trains-france/le-train-sur-pneus/

 

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Best pic to compare slant nose and bulldog nose:

http://ctr.trains.com/railroad-reference/great-passenger-trains/2013/10/sr-gallery

[M636C]

I may have underestimated the number of tyres:

Check out

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=TPfyWSmr&id=292EABFEDAF871629F6BE56410FF54F9724D210A&thid=OIP.TPfyWSmrM4BU5m5gGq43JwHaFF&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fforum.e-train.fr%2ftrains%2fdownload%2ffile.php%3fid%3d244571&exph=549&expw=800&q=sncf+230k+locomotive&simid=608049354683515083&selectedIndex=91&ajaxhist=0

There seem to be four more tyres acting as buffers on the end cars. There were at least two mild steel sets as well as the stainless steel set(s)?

Peter

[Jones1945]

CSSHEGEWISCH

I believe that the E6 set was ordered for the "South Wind", which was an every third day coach streamliner matched with the "City of Miami" and "Dixie Flagler".  Considering that L&N was operating E6's on conventional passenger trains at the time, a diesel powered "South Wind" would have fit in nicely on part of its route.

The cancellation of the order may have been related to WPB restrictions.

 

 

You are right. Some info about this E6 set was recorded in the book "Black Gold - Black Diamonds: The Pennsylvania Railroad & Dieselization" Volume 1". So I guess the South Wind was kept powered by the streamlined K4s within Pennsy's system until E7 avalible or late-1940s. 

 

M636C

I think that readers here have been a little unkind to this locomotive:

What did it look like prior to streamlining?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/bb/5e/5dbb5e5b94ae42db6b284eed5431948e.jpg

(well, to be honest, with an earlier and even less successful streamlining following the Huet principles....)

But suppose you have a few new streamlined passenger trains, on twenty rubber tyres per car and all you have to haul them is these 230K locomotives. Fitting the large extended smoke deflectors and the skyline casing at least gave an image suitable for the late 1940s.....

Peter

Twenty rubber tyres per car sounds interesting to me. I saw some pics of the skirted passenger car behind the streamlined 230K but still don't have time to search for pics showing the interior! 

My favoite railcar: 

[M636C]

I think that readers here have been a little unkind to this locomotive:

What did it look like prior to streamlining?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/bb/5e/5dbb5e5b94ae42db6b284eed5431948e.jpg

(well, to be honest, with an earlier and even less successful streamlining following the Huet principles....)

But suppose you have a few new streamlined passenger trains, on twenty rubber tyres per car and all you have to haul them is these 230K locomotives. Fitting the large extended smoke deflectors and the skyline casing at least gave an image suitable for the late 1940s.....

Peter

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Jones1945

IIRC PRR ordered a slant nose E6 A/B set in 1942, but the order was cancelled until E7 was avalible. 

 

I believe that the E6 set was ordered for the "South Wind", which was an every third day coach streamliner matched with the "City of Miami" and "Dixie Flagler".  Considering that L&N was operating E6's on conventional passenger trains at the time, a diesel powered "South Wind" would have fit in nicely on part of its route.

     The cancellation of the order may have been related to WPB restrictions.

[Jones1945]

Miningman

Well any of the last 3 loco's depicted. Cut a hole in the roof in the right place for a stack, lift off the body and plunk it down on a waiting 4-8-4 or whatever. Be easier if it was an oil burner but we can fiqure it out with coal. 

Too bad Pennsy didn't get the E6 A/B . Might have turned them off Diesels for another ten years. 

A cab forward T1. Now you're cooking with gas man! .. er coal. 

So many little twists and turns and tweeks in history could have changed a lot of things.  

Interesting idea. It probably would looks like the proposed ATSF cab forward duplex 6-4-4-4 (?). I believe the original Raymond Loewy "Triplex" had a similar goal to give reciprocating steam locomotive a modern appearance, just like other transportation vehicles he designed. But Pennsy wanted more than that. How it would have looked like is still a mystery though, I guess Overmod has been searching a drawing of it for a while. 

The cab forward T1 was Loewy's idea at the request of PRR to design a good-looking and distinguish streamline shrouding for T1. I believe PRR or the public wanted something new beside Bullet-Head front end streamlining. But I still prefer S1 to any other streamliner.  

If parallel universe is not a concept but a fact, I wish you can find me cooking bacons and eggs in the cab of PRR #6101; in another universe.  infinite possibility! Sorry for digress...

 

[Miningman]

Well any of the last 3 loco's depicted. Cut a hole in the roof in the right place for a stack, lift off the body and plunk it down on a waiting 4-8-4 or whatever. Be easier if it was an oil burner but we can fiqure it out with coal. 

Too bad Pennsy didn't get the E6 A/B . Might have turned them off Diesels for another ten years. 

A cab forward T1. Now you're cooking with gas man! .. er coal. 

So many little twists and turns and tweeks in history could have changed a lot of things. 

[Jones1945]

Miningman

Make a nice cab forward out of that. 

Which engine? Speaking of cab forward, I believe many forum members still remember that a cab above the front cyclinders was included in the original conceptual design of PRR T1 by Loewy. I have never seen a decent rendering of it but I could imagine how it would have looked like with his patent drawings. This progressive but not so practical idea was rejected by Pennsy. 

IIRC PRR ordered a slant nose E6 A/B set in 1942, but the order was cancelled until E7 was avalible. 

[Miningman]

Make a nice cab forward out of that. I say, I say, steam son, STEAM!

[Jones1945]

M636C

 

Incidentally, I failed to draw attention to an error in the first post.

This is the first E3, EMD Demonstrator 822.

When it was delivered it had a standard headlight fitted. Comparing it with the E1 above in Penny's post, ATSF 8, or ATSF 4 just above, the three small radiator inlet vents compared to the two large vents on the E1 can be seen.

No 8 is on a sitting car train, either an El Capitan or a San Diegan.

Peter

Thanks for catching that, Peter. I will update the first post. Note how a single shiny stainless steel headlight frame could improve the appearance of the engines. 

[BaltACD]

I have always thought the stainless steel headlight surround that B&O had installed on their EA's was a classy styling feature.

[M636C]

Jones1945

 

 

Penny Trains

I see I'm still the only one who likes the E1. 

 

 

 

You are not the only one Penny Trains. Although I think it would have looked even better if the headlight was a several inches larger in diameter. 

 

 

Incidentally, I failed to draw attention to an error in the first post.

This is the first E3, EMD Demonstrator 822.

When it was delivered it had a standard headlight fitted. Comparing it with the E1 above in Penny's post, ATSF 8, or ATSF 4 just above, the three small radiator inlet vents compared to the two large vents on the E1 can be seen.

No 8 is on a sitting car train, either an El Capitan or a San Diegan.

Peter

 

[Jones1945]

Penny Trains

I see I'm still the only one who likes the E1. 

You are not the only one Penny Trains. Although I think it would have looked even better if the headlight was a several inches larger in diameter. 

 

[Jones1945]

M636C

I don't know, that French streamliner in the second picture looks more like Shamu than it does like Moby Dick.

Having determined the colours it looks more like a parrot to me, maybe a female Crimson Rosella. Do you have red and green whales in Canada? But I agree, not Moby Dick... Maybe Jones 1945 didn't translate the colours given in the text.

Peter

Not in Canada but in my sci-fi movie.  No, I didn't translate the text even there are plenty of apps which you can take a photo of the text for translation. I am not really impressed by these France streamliners but I think they made the history of streamlining more colorful. It makes sense that people associate streamlined train with Moby Dick, whales, shamu, bird and fish or maybe an egg?  

 

 

 

I prefer something like this: 

 

 

 

[Firelock76]

Uh huh, a lot of those pre-E and F unit diesels would have never won any beauty contests, back in the days when they were a "function looking for a form."

On one hand, I'm sorry they weren't saved for preservation, on the other I'm glad they joined the fraternity of Pi Kappa Scrappa.

[Penny Trains]

yeeeaaahhhh.....never been an M10000 fan.....

[Firelock76]

Hey, it's a slant-snoot, I like it, I like all the slant-snoots!

Look on the bright side, slant-noses are leading in the straw poll, 50%!

Anyway, since it looks like we've got an ugly contest going on how's about this one?

https://www.american-rails.com/green-diamond.html

[Penny Trains]

I see I'm still the only one who likes the E1. 

[M636C]

I don't know, that French streamliner in the second picture looks more like Shamu than it does like Moby Dick.

Having determined the colours it looks more like a parrot to me, maybe a female Crimson Rosella. Do you have red and green whales in Canada? But I agree, not Moby Dick... Maybe Jones 1945 didn't translate the colours given in the text.

Peter

[Firelock76]

Jones1945

 

SD70Dude

Here's another one I just know you'll love:

http://railpictures.net/photo/674657/

Hope this doesn't distract too much from what has become a very interesting non-railroad conversation.

 

 

 

I just found a new challenger. But hey, why not making a steam locomotive looks like Moby Dick?   

 

I don't know, that French streamliner in the second picture looks more like Shamu than it does like Moby Dick.

I took a second look at that rather strange Hungarian streamliner, and I'm not sure it's streamlining at all, looks more like armor plate.

[M636C]

I don't know whether to be impressed by Jones 1945's knowlege of French, but both the streamlined Chapelon Pacific and the 230K were known as "Whales".

The Pacific was streamlined in 1946 and the 4-6-0s in 1947 to 1948.

The 230K locomotive illustrated was painted green with black and white on the smoke deflectors with the central stripe from the SNCF logo in red. Most of these were painted dark blue with a ribbed alumimium strip. These were streamline for working the Paris Strasbourg expresses, which ran on five axle trucks with pneumatic tyres. At least one of these trains was stainless steel built under Budd licence, hence the aluminium strip to match the cars.

The 230K dates back to 1906 but the streamlined locomotives were from a batch built between 1925 and 1927 to the same basic design, Est Class 11S.

Peter 

[Jones1945]

Miningman

Perhaps it was more impactful seeing it live in person. 

Sure thing. Just as the first time I visit the Pyramid of Cairo, it looks so much taller than I imagine.

These steam locomotives with EU style streamlining might looks a bit odd for US folks but for me, they were interesting at least. Beside bullet head, Moby Dick, ship prow, reversed bath tub, there were some other alternatives waiting for me and you to explore. 

 

[Miningman]

That is some kinda insane looking ten wheeler. French eh? Did the same guy come up with the styling for the Citroen? 

Perhaps it was more impactful seeing it live in person. Perhaps

The top photo looks like something from Steampunk.. 

[Jones1945]

SD70Dude

Here's another one I just know you'll love:

http://railpictures.net/photo/674657/

Hope this doesn't distract too much from what has become a very interesting non-railroad conversation.

I just found a new challenger. But hey, why not making a steam locomotive looks like Moby Dick?   

[Penny Trains]

Overmod

I have never quite understood why no road did the 'best of all worlds' nose by combining the streamlined glass numberboard style of the E8/9 with the slantnose profile.

Because that would have made sense? 

[Overmod]

You Canadians don't appreciate European attempts at functional streamlining.

That Belgian engine, from the land of Walschaerts and Belpaire, has cutouts to the motion, but did you note the interesting detail that the motion is outside for easy maintenance but the cylinders are inside, where their contribution to augment is minimized?  That's a legitimate high-speed engine, not a regular one wrapped in tin to impress the marks.

And the MAV example is a kind of perfected 'Micki-Maus' streamliner from the dump-in-the-pants German functional enclosure tradition, and should be respected as that.  Especially in that grim paint job, so reminiscent of the LBE especially after takeover ... they needed an Otto Kuhler over there.

Now, if you want silly, look at the moral equivalent of the North Woods Hiawatha power, the later LBE 2-6-0s.  Those have little reason to be so ghastly looking.  Then we can get on to some of the French prototypes, which are especially unforgivable coming precisely in the era when le Patron was designing his cars... and rail vehicles...

Or those Bulleid austerity 0-6-0s that had you looking for the place that the big key went in to wind them up...

I have never quite understood why no road did the 'best of all worlds' nose by combining the streamlined glass numberboard style of the E8/9 with the slantnose profile.

[Miningman]

Definitely some kind of nasty. 

[SD70Dude]

Miningman

Someone out there will know what that God-awful thing is. I'm just grateful it doesn't say Pennsylvannia after all it is an Atlantic ( I think) and it just might be something they could come up with on a bad day.

Well at least you can access the moving stuff. Even the skyline casing looks like a bunch of junk. 

Here's another one I just know you'll love:

http://railpictures.net/photo/674657/

Hope this doesn't distract too much from what has become a very interesting non-railroad conversation.

[SSW9389]

When did the EMD design team modify the slant nose E6A to the bulldog nose of the E7A? Was it just a matter of fitting the nose to the existing design?

The last E6As were built in September 1942. The first E7As were built in February 1945.