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PRR Fleet of Modernism (1938-1947) integrated discussion

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, February 19, 2021 8:31 PM

Fleet of Modernism in cars being pulled by the fleet of Anachronism in motive power.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, February 19, 2021 9:18 PM

BaltACD
Fleet of Modernism in cars being pulled by the fleet of Anachronism in motive power.

Well, it's modern where the passengers see it getting on.  And fast "enough" to satisfy them to want to see it getting on again and again.  Who in Philadelphia cares if the non-paying public thinks it looks swoopy or not as it goes by them?  They've invested in 475 examples of road power obsolescent the year the last example was finished...

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, February 19, 2021 10:08 PM

BaltACD

Fleet of Modernism in cars being pulled by the fleet of Anachronism in motive power.

That's why I envy people who love NYCRR, B&O, N&W, MILW, CB&Q, ATSF, and Union Pacific's streamliners; their favorite streamliners were carefully decorated and streamlined entirely, not only the passenger cars but also included the motive power. NYCRR's Mercury is a classic example of creating and marketing a streamliner successfully; the glorious history of the streamlined 20th Century Limited is overwhelming.

For the PRR streamliners, the trains were powered by the streamlined GG1 on the east end of the system only. On the west end of the system, even the Broadway Limited was mostly powered by good old non-streamlined K4s. Let alone most of the FOM trains, except Trail Blazer, Jeffersonian and South Wind, were never entirely streamlined. Crack trains like Congressional and Senator were not even included in the Fleet of Modernism project after the Unit Train project got canceled.

I still see the whole FOM thing was half-baked. 50% due to PRR's management philosophy, 50% due to WWII. Nevertheless, the design of the FOM livery is fabulous. 

 

 

  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 20, 2021 5:15 PM

Still, you've got to love the name...

"The Fleet of Modernism!"  

When I say those words out loud I attempt the stentorian tone of a 1930's radio announcer, nothing else seems appropriate!  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, February 21, 2021 3:18 AM

Flintlock76

Still, you've got to love the name...

"The Fleet of Modernism!"  

When I say those words out loud I attempt the stentorian tone of a 1930's radio announcer, nothing else seems appropriate!  

 

Definitely. Besides the name of it, those pre-war Pullman-built streamlined sleepers still looked very modern even by today's standard. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 21, 2021 12:14 PM

Niagras regularly pulled the 20th Century, the Pacemaker, and the Empire State Express.  They were not streamlined, and the were not anachronistic.

And none of the Central's stramliners ever had streamlined power Harmon - GCT.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, February 21, 2021 8:31 PM

When Pennsy's T1s were allowed to go as far as Harrisburg, some PRR streamliners were pulled by streamlined powers on the entire route. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, February 22, 2021 10:26 AM

Also quite true when E7's and E8's replaced the T1's.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Monday, February 22, 2021 11:35 AM

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s...

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 22, 2021 12:52 PM

Overmod

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s...

 

Streamlined Atlantics?  Oh, you must mean EP20s.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, February 22, 2021 1:05 PM

rcdrye
 
Overmod

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s...

Streamlined Atlantics?

That would have been E8s.

Oh, you must mean EP20s.

They never got them, so they stayed E6s.  In any case, in 1942 they'd have been EP1 and anything else pushed up in the series accordingly before revised.

Interesting to consider what the E7s would be if the slantnose EMDs had taken EP20 'first'.  

 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, February 22, 2021 1:06 PM

rcdrye
 
Overmod

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s...

Streamlined Atlantics?

That would have been E8s.

Oh, you must mean EP20s.

They never got them, so they stayed E6s.  In any case, in 1942 they'd have been EP1 and anything else pushed up in the series accordingly before revised.

Interesting to consider what the E7s would be if the slantnose EMDs had taken EP20 'first'.   Subletters, probably...

 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, February 22, 2021 8:06 PM

Art Deco and the railroads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW9g44fvjrM

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, February 22, 2021 8:15 PM

Overmod

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s... 

I bet Loewy and EMD both had some interesting ideas, too bad the order was canceled after War Production Board failed to approve. A paint scheme that matches the FOM livery would have been awesome.

---------------------------------------

 

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 7:28 PM

Photo of the day. April 30, 2020:

https://www.trains.com/ctr/photos-videos/photo-of-the-day/englewood-engines/

"The Pennsylvania Railroad liked to double-head K4s Pacifics on heavy passenger trains. Here, the second section of eastbound train 76, the Trail Blazer, leaves Englewood, Ill., in south suburban Chicago in January 1941."

Paul Eilenberger, Harold Stinton collection

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 8:42 PM

Those double-headed K4's are impressive as hell, and they're putting on quite a show.  But it reminds me of a post I made a while back (I forget which topic) where I said:

Imagine you're a businessman in 1938 riding the Broadway Limited from Chicago back to New York.  Leaving Englewood station you look out the window to your left and see the 20th Century Limited in all its Dreyfuss streamlined glory, while your  train is being pulled by two locomotives exactly the same as the one that pulled the train you rode off to war in as a young Doughboy in 1918. 

And that Dreyfuss Hudson beats  your train in the Englewood drag race!

(Which neither railroad will admit to running!)

Who's going to get your business next trip? 

Seriously though, what wouldn't any of us give just to see doubleheaded K4's again?  Or the drag race for that matter!

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 7:10 AM

Flintlock76
And that Dreyfuss Hudson beats your train in the Englewood drag race!

You really think a J-3a will out-accelerate two K4s in the speed range around Englewood?

It might, if NYC thought they were racing but the PRR crews missed the memo or had an inconvenient RFE or other weasel riding that day. At least one story in Trains had doubleheader K4s reaching their practical highest speed in the low 90s without great difficulty -- they neither rode nor guided well at that speed, but could get there... and the track in the Englewood speedway is relatively level and straight.

Reminds me of that picture in Trains of a doubleheader B&O train (I believe with P7s) supposedly handily out-accelerating a GG1 that was puffing an amazing amount of road dust... according to the caption.  I have always wondered if that were true.

I'll grant you the J3 with roller rods had considerably high permissible speed than most K4s, but it might be a while for it to reach that speed long enough to overcome the likely early lead... even if the new consist turned out significantly lighter than whatever ponderous FOM equipment might be over on the Pennsy.  And nobody pulled the tape on that engine afterward... Wink

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 8:30 AM

Flintlock:  Century on the right, not the left, leaving Englewood eastbound on the Broadway.

And, unless he is a railfan, why would the businessman inspect the head-end?

And post-WWII, what about a T1 vs. a Niagra?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 10:22 AM

I would hardly consider Englewood (roughly 63rd & State) to be a suburban stop, being well within the city limits.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 10:57 AM

Overmod
You really think a J-3a will out-accelerate two K4s in the speed range around Englewood?

Don't say it never happened.  

Besides, they weren't racing, remember?  Wink

At any rate, what does it say to a potential customer when one railroad needs TWO locomotives to do a job that the competition only needs ONE for?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 11:01 AM

daveklepper

Flintlock:  Century on the right, not the left, leaving Englewood eastbound on the Broadway.

And, unless he is a railfan, why would the businessman inspect the head-end?

And post-WWII, what about a T1 vs. a Niagra?

 

Not purposely inspecting, but if he's looking out the window enjoying the ride he couldn't help but notice at some point.

Or, he could be waiting on the platform for the Broadway's arrival when the Century rolls in and gets a good look at it, they didn't always arrive at the same time.  Or depart at the same time, according to an article in the current "Classic Trains."  

Post-war?  Another matter.  And I'd love to see one of those races that never happened (Wink) between a T1 and a Niagara!

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 11:32 AM

And the Century is on the Broadway passenger's left leaving Englewood.

Englewood is inside Chicago's city limits added in 1889 as part of a bunch of annexations.  The station sat right on the boundary (S. State St) between the former townships of Lake and Hyde Park.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 1:02 PM

Flintlock76
At any rate, what does it say to a potential customer when one railroad needs TWO locomotives to do a job that the competition only needs ONE for?

They only needed about ONE AND A QUARTER worth of locomotives to do the job because, although obsolescent, those Pacifics were very good obsolescent.  The problem was that your standard railroad had standardized with almost 500 of them in just a little over 10 years, finishing just in time to miss the evolution of just about everything that made for true high-speed power... then concentrated the Depression-scarce improvement money largely on electrics that would never see Lines West.  So you had overkill economically justified in a number of ways -- we all know the right answer, which was essentially a '30s-balanced M1a, and we didn't quite get to the later right answer, which would have been an eight-driver duplex with the '48 mods, conjugation, and perhaps fast-acting traction control, but in the meantime you use up what you have, quantized as necessary.  

In addition, PRR -- while having the luxury of being able to discriminate snapping from helping -- had the interesting consequence of the relatively short but heavy grade in its Allegheny-divide crossing.  One could argue that since this was so obviously going to be addressed 'correctly' next after 1938 with extension of electrification, why bother with expensive new steam (aka 'where's my E8s Atlantic?' in a different context) why not be prepared to use that other ¾ of a locomotive you don't "need" most of the trip to provide the snapping without stopping -- think of it as an alternative to using expensive and frequently tetchy boosters or auxiliary locomotives...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 1:57 PM

You are right that looking forward from the engineer's view, the Century is on the left.  But if he is warching the race, it is from the obs at the rear, and the Century is on the right.   And I did it, saw it. but with La Grange products.   And I have to say, the Century did win, not by much, but it did win.  View from Moutain ?View or Tower View.  Enjoyed the Broadwat ride none the less.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 3:04 PM

Overmod
They only needed about ONE AND A QUARTER worth of locomotives to do the job because, although obsolescent, those Pacifics were very good obsolescent.

Oh, I know, I know, and I'll be one happy guy if and when they get 1361 running again.  A classic!  

Well, Bennett Levin's involved last I heard, and if he's involved it'll get done.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 7:08 PM

Flintlock76
At any rate, what does it say to a potential customer when one railroad needs TWO locomotives to do a job that the competition only needs ONE for?

While the PRR's K4's were built in large numbers - they were not among the best of the Pacifics ever built.

Anecdote that my Father related from his first hand experiences between Baltimore and Washington on the B&O.  Scheduling out of DC created 'races' between B&O and PRR on the trains operating North of DC in many cases.  In the early 1920's the PRR trains with K4's would walk away from B&O trains and the Pacifics they were being operated with.  In 1927 the B&O took delivery of their 'President' Pacifics (engines named for the first 20 Presidents of the US).  With a President on the point, the B&O trains would walk the PRR's K4 led trains.  When electrification was implemented the PRR GG-1's beat anything and everything the B&O had - steam or diesel.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 9:16 PM

Fascinating discussion, totally unexpected! I don't want to be nitpicky, Wayne, but you know the Broadway Limited ridership in 1938 was so low that it usually required only one single K4s to power the 9-car "lightweight" consist. So it would have been a "race" between a 9-car train powered by a Pacific and a longer train (12-car?) powered by a Hudson. 

People who wanted to meet some new friends and looking for new business opportunities would definitely pick the 20th Century Limited; for people who wanted to enjoy a quiet long-distance overnight train ride, Broadway was the perfect train for them!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, March 4, 2021 8:23 AM

Jones1945
Fascinating discussion, totally unexpected! I don't want to be nitpicky, Wayne, but you know the Broadway Limited ridership in 1938 was so low that it usually required only one single K4s to power the 9-car "lightweight" consist.

Oh, I heard about that, and it drove the Pennsy people crazy with envy!  The Broadway had everything the Century did in the way of comfort, appointments, food, fares, running times, you name it, but the Century always  got most of the high-end business.  

"What do they got that WE ain't got?"  

The Broadway got the last laugh, in a way.  The Century died in 1967 while the Broadway lasted into the Amtrak era, although obviously not the same train it was in years past.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 4, 2021 8:38 AM

Looking at Pacifics, the B&M had some great ones, built in the Hudson era, and also recall the Reading had some built as late as 1948, last used on PRSL trains and the last steam into 30th Street along with the K4s.

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 4, 2021 10:28 AM

The Broadway Limited was basically discontinued shortly after the Century was discontinued and the name was hung on the schedule of the General, right down to the number (48-49).

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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