(deleted, forget it!)
Sara TOne drawback of the S2 I was told was the turbine and gear box that was held on bearings on the two driven axles and that ways were unsuspended, they were fully prone to the kicking and rattling of the rails of PRR's 'high speed track' with nailed rails and staggered joints left and right alternatively.
In practice it might be possible to implement quill drive as on the GG1s from a 'floating' gear case similarly mounted to the frame. Westinghouse designers were said to reason from maritime practice in high-power reduction-gear design, where unsprung mass of the 'final drive' is much less an issue. If the center rods are absent, the gear case can be pivoted on the locomotive frame, with the suspension accommodation being analogous to that for nose-suspended motors; keeping the gears and bearings aligned and the oil sealing good were considered more important than low unsprung mass.
In any case the difficulty with most of the turbine blading comes with axial shock, particularly that which is hard enough to deflect rotating blading into stator blades or vice versa. It is highly unlikely that a locomotive guided by coned tread and ¾" flanges will suffer transverse shock sufficient to accomplish that, let alone given the relatively high turbine shaft axis.
The situation on the N&W TE-1 of course was quite different, although the concern as described by Louis Newton was that a standing cut of hoppers was run in at over 8½ mph, something that no practical skid-based impact protection for turbogenerators or long-travel locomotive draft gear would likely be expected to absorb. Even then the issues that led to the TE-1's retirement were electrical, not turbine, related...
How the V1, both 'versions' of which were designed for longitudinal turbines, would handle this issue is less clear. In the Bowes drive variant there is no direct contact between the turbine shaft and the final drive... unless the lockup clutch is engaged, which can communicate backdriving shock. There would be a significant mass in the cast underframes that would essentially have to be accelerated before any transverse bending load on the blading would be developed, and while the shafting was part of unsprung mass the turbines (in part to keep flexible joints out of the steamlines) would be entirely spring-borne.
The issue of transverse shock factors more significantly into a counterrotating Ljungstrom turbine (where there are no fixed stator blades). But here again providing good bearing support and tribology in the turbine shafting would be essential, and ensuring proper mesh, crowning, etc. of a fully-enclosed geartrain more important than low unsprung driver mass... for transmission designers!
An analogue here is the mounting of the Besler motors on the B&O W-1, which in my opinion has many aspects of mechanical suicide. Roosen's alternative certainly seems to isolate a 'steam motor' better from direct road shocks.
Jones 1945,
if you mean these small smoke deflectors on the photo: these are properly called Witte deflectors because they were a German invention by Degenkolb in 1942 on the 52 class locos. They were universally introduced in 1948 following on DB by Friedrich Witte who then was about the German equivalent of a CME, Dez 21. Even on East-German DR they were called Witte deflectors, DR had their version a bit more bowed outwards like a sail. You see them on most German steam locos after 1950.
But there was a big difference between the successful proper Witte deflectors, or wings, as Juni calls them, and the unsuccessful PRR type: simply the German wings were positioned at the width of the loading gauge and reached forward before the smoke box front to catch the wind, the PRR ones were closely hugging to the smokebox and did not reach further than the smokebox drum, so they dodged the wind and were useless. I believe they are the sort of smoke wings those people like who don't like smoke wings at all, because they almost get lost hiding so close besides the smokebox drum. PRR only learned with the traditional so called 'elephant ears' which are of course an offense to the 'blank front end lovers'.
One drawback of the S2 I was told was the turbine and gear box that was held on bearings on the two driven axles and that ways were unsuspended, they were fully prone to the kicking and rattling of the rails of PRR's 'high speed track' with nailed rails and staggered joints left and right alternatively. Considering the delicacy of modern turbine engines of modern planes I wonder this turbine did withstand the punishment for years - or did it? The end came when the turbine was (again?) damaged and the loco stood in the shed at Crestline. I believe it was the time when PRR was about to close the book on any steam loco that was not 100% standart and gave a minimum of a problem. I believe they didn't take no other look but just crossed them out for ever. Zzip and zzip and zzip! and in the end they crossed themselves out with one giant final ZZZZZIPP! and the whole system went PennCentral! Finally PC in agony also was about to suiczzzzzi..... but then there were others who's intentions differed. You know that better than me.
Sara 05003
While we are on the subject of the S2, we might look at some of the practical details of its successor, which Westinghouse was still touting well into 1948.
As I have said, implementing a practical multispeed transmission and eliminating the ridiculous reverse turbine were priorities, and it is not surprising to see patents (filed, in fact, the same day) which quite correctly demonstrate a two-speed planetary transmission and robust geared reverse (2435633A and 2469573A), together with an alternative by a different engineer (2447136A) that provides reversing via the planetary. Newton filed an improvement on the gearing arrangement a month later (July 1946).
Unfortunately the actual patents did not start to issue until early 1948, by which time both the societal factors and railroad 'exigencies' that led to the first great wave of dieselization were becoming well recognized. There was little place for large, relatively advanced steam power to be built new; what interest there was in turbines became directed first to different types of mechanical drive not involving rods and then, famously and unsuccessfully, into electric drive to all wheels...
That's a nice model! Really high-grade!
The S2 I've got is the old Lionel 681 from the '50s, which needless to say doesn't have that kind of detail. It's a very good runner though, solid and reliable even after 70 years!
I wasn't even planning on buying one myself but I was in Henning's Trains in Lansdale PA several years ago and there it was at a price too good to pass up.
The funny thing is the S2 worked out a lot better for Lionel than it ever did for the Pennsy!
Here's the 681.
http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_681_loco.htm
Flintlock76 Jeez, I never noticed it had smoke deflectors. Thanks Mr. Jones! I learned something today!
Jeez, I never noticed it had smoke deflectors.
Thanks Mr. Jones! I learned something today!
You are welcome, Wayne. It was probably because Lionel's PRR S2 models never had smoke deflectors equipped. If you are not a Pennsy fan you probably didn't notice that.
I found the B&M style smoke deflectors looked very attractive on the S2. For the sake of aesthetic, PRR did a great job making the smoke deflectors as small as possible which fit the handsome front end of the S2. Too bad that it wasn't good enough to lift the smoke and lasted less than 2 years.
Here you can see the deflector plate in front of the steam dome that was mentioned by Overmod in the previous post.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
The S2 had not one, but two distinct styles of deflector, showing some of the history of deflector "effectiveness" in North American practice.
The small deflector system pictured (reminiscent of the system applied to B&M Berkshires) was only in use a short time; it was replaced by the more familiar 'Niagara-style' elephant ears by 1947.
Something you may not have noticed is that the B&M ears were not the only smoke/steam-lifting devices -- look for the deflector plate in front of the steam dome, which is visible in the top shot but not the second. A clearer view of it is here:
https://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/bro/bro2695.jpg
I note that in the picture Jones1945 provided it appears that the plate is already showing some deterioration or damage (see the crack of daylight?) and there may be discussion of this in the surviving material at the Hagley, as 'optimizing the design' of this locomotive was still a priority at PRR for the duration of the 'early' deflector installation.
That the elephant-ear design worked for locomotives of this size and speed might be taken from their fitting to Niagaras, FEF-3s and the 6200 without, to my knowledge, removal once installed. On the original Niagara these had a vertical 'trailing edge' but the productuon engines had the angle; interestingly the "other" late Kiefer design, for the A-2-A Berkshire, showed these in the diagram before the locomotives were constructed.
Two color photos of the PRR S2 from the internet, both equipped with the B&M style smoke deflectors:
Gary
at this time I cannot post a proper answer because I cannot post any picture / drawing / diagram - which I would need to lay out some connections between amount of steam / cylinder volume and the consequences on cylinder efficiency due to limits of valve gear. I wanted to post an indicated hp curve over speed which is essential to see the difference various cylinder volumes would make and the influence of more or less capable valve gear and cylinder steam passages.
Sorry for that. Maybe it will straighten out and I can then post the matter.
Ciao
Juniatha
Juniatha Hello Peter Now this *is* a contribution - I didn't know of that project. Thank you! Juniatha
Hello Peter
Now this *is* a contribution - I didn't know of that project.
Thank you!
There is another from the Riddles, Cox and Bond period....
http://www.82045.org.uk/
Peter
M636CI suspect that the trade was piracy.....
Shhhhhhsh....
They preferred the term "corsairs." More respectable you know!
I think it is fairly clear that the Spanish invasion plan left a lot to be desired, and was not carried out well.
I was looking at the text of Sir Henry Newbolt's poem, used in the song I posted earlier....
The second last line, which I've marked in bold, struck a chord.
A magazine for the RAN Submarine community is called The Trade...
For the fight with the Armada in 1588, Effingham, Hawkins and Drake brought their own ships as they were all privateers, twelve ships in all.
I suspect that the trade was piracy.....
Drake also burned shipyards and cooperages, leaving the Spaniards with green wood for shipbuilding and barrel staves. The barrel stave problem may have been worse than the leaky ships, since a very large proportion of Spanish crews suffered from dysentery during the Armada sailing. Just shows how important water supply is for more than steam!
You reckon the Spaniards are still holding a grudge against English-speakers for that affair in the Channel in 1588? - Flintlock 76
I would have thought so if I didn't know that the Spanish Armada's ships have the same problems as ours. We should have been more intelligent customers....
I think the British still have a grudge against Spanish speakers, but that dates from 1982....
The Spanish had ships at sea and we should have looked more carefully. But now we are buying from the British a design still on the drawing board. So nobody knows if it will work or what it will cost.
For years we built our own ships to British designs with a local design team that knew where the weaknesses were and quietly left them out (in a couple of cases by using Dutch radars instead of British units.)
Around twenty years ago I was involved in an effort to avoid buying the recent British Daring class destroyers. The Spanish destroyers aren't great, but they are better and much cheaper than the Darings which had technical problems we could predict years before they were completed.
M636C"saw us coming". (Is that term used in the USA with the connotation of a confidence trick?).
Oh yeah Peter, it's used here in the US all right, and has been for decades, and for the reason you've guessed at.
You reckon the Spaniards are still holding a grudge against English-speakers for that affair in the Channel in 1588?
And yes, "armada" is the Spanish word for navy. In fact, the Spanish marine corps, the oldest in the world, is called the "Infantria Marina de Armada Espaniola." (I think I got that right.)
Their most famous veteran? Miguel de Cervantes.
IA and eastern Juniatha what would be the right cylinders on the NYC Niagaras with 290 lb boiler pressure and 79 inch drivers. Gary
Juniatha what would be the right cylinders on the NYC Niagaras with 290 lb boiler pressure and 79 inch drivers. Gary
Flintlock76 Then there's the legend of Drake's Drum. If England's threatened with invasion beat the drum preserved at Buckland Abbey, Drake's home, and he'll come back with his fleet to fight 'em off. There's the tale that Prime Minister Winston Churchill had a Royal Marine drummer stationed at Buckland Abbey during the summer of 1940 when the German invasion seemed imminant to sound "Beat to Quarters" on Drake's Drum, just in case!
Then there's the legend of Drake's Drum. If England's threatened with invasion beat the drum preserved at Buckland Abbey, Drake's home, and he'll come back with his fleet to fight 'em off.
There's the tale that Prime Minister Winston Churchill had a Royal Marine drummer stationed at Buckland Abbey during the summer of 1940 when the German invasion seemed imminant to sound "Beat to Quarters" on Drake's Drum, just in case!
There is of course a song, to be sung with a strong Devon accent..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4HPWXEIKQc
I'm quite familiar with the Devon accent, about half of the technical petty officers in the Royal Australian Navy in the late 1960s spoke with that accent... (as do movie pirates...)
Of course the Armada wasn't a surprise attack. Drake had attacked the Spanish Fleet in Cadiz, Spain in April 1587, destroying between 39 (Drake's estimate) and 25 (Spanish estimate) ships. That delayed the attack and Drake met it again in the channel in July 1588.
Since 1588, "Armada" has had the connotation in English of a huge fleet, but in Spanish it just means fleet or Navy.
The RAN decided a few years ago to buy a number of major ships from Spain. My feeling is that the Spanish, like the Swedes some years earlier "saw us coming". (Is that term used in the USA with the connotation of a confidence trick?). But now we are buying ships from the UK again....
Juniatha Flintlock - a bit of everything? I believe it could be made an example of what people can take up and endure if only they be made to believe a huge treasury can be sacked in if they succeed. And then this picture of Drake on board of his ship with a few comrades comes to my mind, when he saw the huge Armada. He looked them over through his telescope, cooly analysed their weak spot: They don't know how to sail! They are much to close to each other. So he cold bloodedly made one bold decission: to sail right there and set them all aflame! In the end the whole enormous Armada went up in one hell's fire and but the few ships of Drake's and his companions were left. So he returned to report to his queen ..: "Job done!" add.: Oh, and Flintlock, you wrote "Could explain a lot of history when you think about it." Maybe: Could explain a lot of history when you drink about it. = J =
Flintlock - a bit of everything?
I believe it could be made an example of what people can take up and endure if only they be made to believe a huge treasury can be sacked in if they succeed.
And then this picture of Drake on board of his ship with a few comrades comes to my mind, when he saw the huge Armada. He looked them over through his telescope, cooly analysed their weak spot: They don't know how to sail! They are much to close to each other. So he cold bloodedly made one bold decission: to sail right there and set them all aflame! In the end the whole enormous Armada went up in one hell's fire and but the few ships of Drake's and his companions were left. So he returned to report to his queen ..:
"Job done!"
add.:
Oh, and Flintlock, you wrote
"Could explain a lot of history when you think about it."
Maybe: Could explain a lot of history when you drink about it.
= J =
The more common legend about Drake and the Armada is, from Wikipedia:
The most famous (but probably apocryphal) anecdote about Drake relates that, prior to the battle, he was playing a game of bowls on Plymouth Hoe. On being warned of the approach of the Spanish fleet, Drake is said to have remarked that there was plenty of time to finish the game and still beat the Spaniards, perhaps because he was waiting for high tide. There is no known eyewitness account of this incident and the earliest retelling of it was printed 37 years later. Adverse winds and currents caused some delay in the launching of the English fleet as the Spanish drew nearer, perhaps prompting a popular myth of Drake's cavalier attitude to the Spanish threat. It might also have been later ascribed to the stoic attribute of British culture.
I'm sure I've seen a painting of that scene and a plaque from 1883 illustrates it.
While there have been many Royal Navy ships named for Drake other names were more prominent, particularly after the first world war.
JuniathaOk - accepted.
And the Brits dream of getting back to the times of Sir Francis Drake - however they don't dream of getting back to the days of Robin Riddles and Roland C. Bond (not to be confused with James) and E.S. Cox (Juniatha)
At least some Brits dream of that period...
https://www.theclanproject.org/Clan_Home.php
There is a long running British Soap Opera Heartbeat set in that period.
Overmod:
Ok - accepted.
SD70DudeAll that warm beer probably helped too.
Well, the alcoholic beverages back then, beer, wine, you name it, were supposedly much more potent than they are today.
Could explain a lot of history when you think about it.
Flintlock76 We toured the replica of Drake's "Golden Hind" about 20 years ago. I couldn't imagine sailing it on a lake, much less around the world. Either those 16th Century mariners were incredibly brave or they were out of their minds!
We toured the replica of Drake's "Golden Hind" about 20 years ago. I couldn't imagine sailing it on a lake, much less around the world.
Either those 16th Century mariners were incredibly brave or they were out of their minds!
All that warm beer probably helped too.
As for modern railroad arguments, GE vs EMD and is PSR Good or Evil can get pretty heated!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
JuniathaAnd the Brits dream of getting back to the times of Sir Francis Drake
I don't know, the way World War Two re-enacting's taken hold in Britain, to say nothing of all the Spitfire restorations I suspect now they prefer the era of Sir Winston Churchill!
At least the 1940's had electric lights and indoor plumbing!
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