Steam Heat (or lack of) on PRR DD1s?

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 9:27 AM

Well that is quite the mystery you have going on here. It's seems to be a 50-50-Tie, did they or did they not? 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 5:21 PM

You know, it's like everything else.  Whether they had steam generators or not probably depended on time, place, and what those DD1's were being used for.

There's probably no right or wrong here.

All who'd like to see one running again raise your hands!

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, May 14, 2018 3:43 AM

Firelock76
All who'd like to see one running again raise your hands!

I can only use my imagination, reduced to 87:1.

Here's a look at the final outcome:

 PRR_DD1-fini by Edmund, on Flickr

 

 PRR_DD1-fi2i by Edmund, on Flickr

Thanks again, everyone.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, May 14, 2018 5:01 PM

That looks fantastic!  Great work!

Do us a favor and post a video if you can.  It'll be the closest most of us will ever get to a DD1.

And if you can't, no big deal.  I can't either.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 10:06 AM

How could they have possibly provided the service they provided on the LIRR without them?   Manhattan Transfer to Penn was about ten minutes, but Jamaica to Penn a good half hour, with delays from cnflicting traffic possible.

Often forgotten was that they also handled New Haven trains until the catenary from Trenton reached that coming from the Hell Gate Bridge.

The DD-1s that I saw on the LIRR as a youngster were lettered for the LIRR and not for the PRR.  From pictures, how were the two pairs for the wire train lettered?

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 5:53 PM

If this video I found from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is of the preserved wire train DD1 maybe it'll answer Davids question.

To me, they look preserved and not restored, i.e. a little bit rough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSQNFSzPLRo

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 17, 2018 1:09 AM

Perhaps a better answer to Mr. Klepper's question:

This is how 'the last' set of wire-train engines appeared in 1969, shortly before retirement to the historic collection.  There is some online confusion (which I can't rectify from memory) regarding when this collection passed to RRMPA -- I think around 1978 -- but the historic designation is Dec. 17, 1979.

What might be of some amusing interest is the replacement on the wire train, which I would not have predicted even for PC.  I would be interested in learning exactly how the shoe question was addressed.

(Replacement on the wire train for this locomotive, which survived as late as 1979 at Wilmington, of all places, was a pair of ex-LI MUs.)

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, May 17, 2018 1:13 AM

     Oh, wouldn't Mr. Edison be impressed to see how far his moving picture technology has come in 125 years [sarcasm].

However, looking at the — ahem, video — you can see from about :23 > :29 seconds, a protrusion on the roof of the trailing unit. When compared to the model I believe this protrusion is somehow related to a (former) steam generator, probably the GE flash boiler mentioned above.

The model shows two additional details that would certainly mimic a pair of safety valve outlets:

 DD1_roof by Edmund, on Flickr

I'd sure like to see the data that Alco Models used to produce this locomotive. The "perky" looking domes are the sand fill hatches.

My estimate would be that the flash boiler was in one unit and the second unit contained a water supply. It really wouldn't take much room to place a pair of vertical water tanks in the back corners of the enclosure. 

This photo shows part of the roof where it looks like the pipe outlets can be seen:

http://abpr.railfan.net/august05/08-14-05/PRR3967atNewYork6-62MacOwenColl.jpg

 

 

Firelock76
Do us a favor and post a video if you can.

Thank you! I would very much enjoy making a video to showcase this model. I'm way behind on my YouTube offerings, anyway. Soon, I hope.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:16 AM

gmpullman
This photo shows part of the roof where it looks like the pipe outlets can be seen:

http://abpr.railfan.net/august05/08-14-05/PRR3967atNewYork6-62MacOwenColl.jpg

Two notes:  first, I see not pipe but what does appear to be at least one dome relief valve in the stated location; this is particularly clear using the zoom feature provided for that picture (it worked with the scroll wheel on my mouse and a little judicious panning of scroll bars).  Second, there is a fitting just under 3967's end door, which I don't see present on 4780.  This would seem to be a perfectly sensible location for 'added-on' steamline connection for a locomotive of this construction.

I have yet to see any picture of a DD1 that shows a steamline connection between the two units, which would at least appear to indicate that 'both halves' would get their own independent steam generator setups (and this would be reinforced as a conclusion by the doubling-up of the roof safeties, if that is what they are).  That would seem more expensive than providing a connection and through-pipe to the "non-generator end", and while I suspect that all evidence of such a connection has probably not been erased from the surviving locomotives, it will be impossible to determine other than by carefully looking at them 'up close and physical' with some expectation of what to look for and where it would have been.

Yes, you would need a steamline connection at both ends, as the engines were not turned at Manhattan Transfer; there is probably a difference in the expected lb/hr of steam generation, however, as incoming trains would be steam-heated right up to within a couple of minutes of the DD1 being attached, with a short and direct trip to passenger discharge, whereas an outgoing train might be off Sunnyside house steam fairly long before leaving NYP and the accessible steam lines in the station plant are comparatively few.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 17, 2018 4:03 AM

But an incoming train from Jamaica to Penn could be delayed.  The LIRR would have enough to cope with the ire of delayed passengers withour their also being cold!

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, May 17, 2018 9:34 AM

daveklepper
But an incoming train from Jamaica to Penn could be delayed.  The LIRR would have enough to cope with the ire of delayed passengers withour their also being cold!

Passenger expectations about heating and cooling were much lower in the 20's & 30's than they are today.

         

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by erikem on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:08 AM

Out of a whim, I decided to have a look at my copy of Train Shed Cyclopedia No.15, Heavy Electric Traction 1922-1941.

The first section of the book are pages 905-943 from the 1922 Locomotive Cyclopedia. Pages 905-909 are devoted to drawings of the DD1. On page 906, the text for part label "77" for fig. 2229 reads "Steam Heat Pipe". On page 909, The caption for fig 2235 reads "General Arrangement of Heater Tank on Electric Passenger Locomotive...".

So it looks like the DD1's were indeed equiped with steam generators.

As for the sand box opening covers - perky??? Whistling

 

Update: The "Heater Tank" is shown to be 28" diameter and my estimate it is 44" high. A bit of math shows that's close to 1,000lb of water, which would be good for a bit less than an hour of the GE flash boiler running at maximum output (1100 lb/hr).

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:20 AM

Well that makes it definitive. Not that I ever doubted David Kleppers visual recollection. 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 4:58 AM

erikem
The first section of the book are pages 905-943 from the 1922 Locomotive Cyclopedia.

Note that for North Americans the '22 Cyc is available as a free download from Google Books (and all of you should get and treasure a copy!)

I am on a wretched phone so can't edit a proper link straight to the PDF download.    Someone who can is encouraged to do so stat.

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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, May 25, 2018 2:05 AM

erikem
So it looks like the DD1's were indeed equiped with steam generators.

Excellent detective work, erikem!

https://books.google.com/books?id=oMY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA899&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

  DD1_section by Edmund, on Flickr

erikem
Update: The "Heater Tank" is shown to be 28" diameter and my estimate it is 44" high.

I'm not exactly seeing a cylindrical tank. I see a rectangular water tank between the frame rails:

 DD1_section4 by Edmund, on Flickr

It shows a float gauge with rod extending into the "cab" and a 2" fill pipe.

These drawings also show that I was wrong about the "safety valve pipes" as they are shown to be "Center Pins". Would these be used to secure the carbody to the floor? (There is a forward pair just behind the cab partition).

 DD1_section2 by Edmund, on Flickr

One item I don't see detailed, unless I'm overlooking it, is the previously mentioned, cake-pan shaped covering on the roof. A hole is shown in the carbody but no explanation for it.

  DD1_section6 by Edmund, on Flickr

erikem
As for the sand box opening covers - perky???

Well, they do put me in mind of the top of a coffee percolator Geeked 

This has been a fascinating and informative study! Thank you to everyone involved.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 26, 2018 1:12 PM

Ed,

The view of of the tank in the Train Shed Cyclopedia reprint wasn't as clear as the scan of he original book that you linked. Looks like a couple of hours worth of water in the tank.

It's been an interesting discussion for me as well, having remembered the GE Review article on train heating when reading your original post. Having never seen or had a chance to rdie behind a DD1, my knowledge comes solely from what I've read about them. My first introduction was from Middleton's book on RR electrification and the DD1 stuck me as a really funky way of building an electric locomotive - though there were several good reasons that it was built the way it was.

I'm guessing that the DD1's were delivered without any sort of steam supply, with the PRR thinking that preheating at Sunnyside along with the short run from Manhattan transfer wouldn't require steam generators on the DD1's. Experience probably showed that was a bad assumption.

 - Erik

P.S. I had downloaded the scan of the 1922 Cyclopedia two years ago, bought the Train Shed Cyclopedia No.15 in either 1975 or 1976 from Cody's Books in Bezerkeley.

P.P.S. Dave Klepper was pretty emphatic about some sort of heat source with the DD1 and that's why I caveated my comments on the 1950's Trains magazine article on the DD1.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 27, 2018 10:31 AM

And I wish to thank all for bringing facts to confirm my hazy memory of the LIRR of 70-80 years ago,  Like replacing a hazy scratched B&W postcard with a full-color detailed photo of the same scene.  Thanks.

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