New York Central MLW Built 0-10-0's!

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New York Central MLW Built 0-10-0's!
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 17, 2018 3:13 PM

NYC 7191 along with sister 7190 were only two 0-10-0's built in Canada (MLW April 1909) for a US road. 
These engines along with a third Brooks built 0-10-0 (below) worked in Windsor, Ontario the first hump yard in Canada.
It is likely two engines were all that was required for the hump at one time with the third being a relief engine thus at times one would be available to run elsewhere. Shown here at Comber the end of a short branch. March 11,1946

New York Central Lines 7499. Small lettering on tender reads: CCC&St.L. Likely this engine was on the CASO replacing another engine in the back shop for heavy repairs. Circa 1930's. Old Time Trains Archives

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, February 17, 2018 3:22 PM

That's amazing, I didn't know the NYC had anything like that, although when I saw the designator "0-10-0"  hump yard operations was the first thing I thought of.

Christ, what a set of behemoths!

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, February 17, 2018 6:56 PM

Impressive!  I never knew the Central had anything that big in yard service!  Till today the biggest engines I ever heard of pulling hump duty were the N&W Z class.  I'd bet these guys would compare favorably in a tug-o-war!

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, February 17, 2018 9:41 PM

Miningman

 

NYC 7191 along with sister 7190 were only two 0-10-0's built in Canada (MLW April 1909) for a US road. ..

I had presumed that GTW's 0-10-0's used in the St. Clare tunnel were built in Canada, but upon checking, I see they were Baldwin built.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:49 PM

Midland Mike--

Tough to track down a picture of those fellas. St Clair Tunnel, later GTW 0-10-0's kind of a different beast, but here is a picture after they were converted from Tank engines to a conventional tender. Yes, Baldwin built.

St.Clair Tunnel Company

St.Clair Tunnel Co. 1304 (ex 601) 0-10-0 Decapod with side tanks removed (1898) and tender added. 
Cyl. 22" x 28" Drv. 50" Press. 160 lbs. t.e. 58,500 One of four built as 0-10-0T Camelback by Baldwin 1891

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 17, 2018 11:06 PM

But...it made this possible!, in a far better way.

 

Postcard cancelled 3.30 PM March 20,1911 in Galt, Ontario.
Promoting International Limited between Montreal, Toronto, Detroit and Chicago. 
"The finest and fastest train in Canada"
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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, February 18, 2018 8:16 AM

A Camelback?  That's suprising, especially for a Canadian 'road.  They couldn't possibly have been built to burn waste anthracite like the American Camelbacks, could they?  I'm thinking the cab may have been placed where it was for better visability in hump yard or switching operations, otherwise I can't think of why the Saint Clair Tunnel Co. might have wanted a locomotive of that configuration.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 18, 2018 9:57 AM

Firelock--

They were special ordered from Baldwin as Camelbacks, and saddle tankers to boot, exclusively for the construction of the St, Clair Tunnel. They were built this way  so they did not have turn the locomotives and they could easily operate in either direction. They could haul 745 tons up the 3% grades back and forth with no problem. 

From what I read they were the most powerful locos built up to that time. They were converted to regular tender equipped locomotives and lost their saddle tanks. 

But, yeah, Camelbacks on the GTW? What the heck, eh?  For ease of operations not anthracite coal. 

Generally speaking, Sarnia/Port Huron has milder winters, they have some bad days, but not like in the North country. Still I imagine it was no picnic for the crews. 

They remained in service with the GTW for some time after the tunnel was electrified. 

There are some very good pictures on Wiki, 'view all images'. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, February 18, 2018 10:15 AM

Ease of operation, OK, that makes sense. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:21 PM

The St. Clair Tunnel engines were built to burn Anthracite coal to reduce smoke in tunnel operation.  Better than nothing but nowhere near as good as electrification.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:29 PM

So they did burn anthracite!  Amazing!  Phoebe Snow must have given them a phone call!

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 18, 2018 1:01 PM

Thanks for that rcdrye, so another reason, seems as if they did whatever they needed to do to make the tunnel, the anthracite was deliberately selected. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, February 18, 2018 2:17 PM

rcdrye

The St. Clair Tunnel engines were built to burn Anthracite coal to reduce smoke in tunnel operation.  Better than nothing but nowhere near as good as electrification.

 

Thanks; I was wondering about coal burners in the St. Clair Tunnel.

Johnny

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Posted by Fr.Al on Sunday, February 18, 2018 2:24 PM

I concur with rcdrye; anthracite coal was preferable, electrification better. My late father-in-law was a minor who used to dig that anthracite.

      Does anyone here remember reading in "Atlas Shrugged" where a steam locomotive was dispatched to take a passenger train through a long tunnel when normally a diesel would have been used? Everyone on that train suffocated except the fireman, who somehow made it out alive.

    Finally, Firelock, would I be violatin' yer civil rights, laddie, if I asked ye to go easy on the Lord's name? Thank you, and may all the Saints of Ireland bless you!☺

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 18, 2018 3:07 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Clair_Tunnel

If you go to this link you will see several pictures of the GTW 0-10-0's and in its original configuration and then modified to 'conventional'. There is one explanation among the pictures, an excerpt from a book, that describes why they ordered them the way they did. It does not mention anthracite, but it makes good sense that was also a consideration. It does state that it negated the need to turn the locos and ease of operation. 

This was the very first tunnel boring under a body of water in all of North America, and is considered an breakthrough engineering feat. I would think smoke problems were well considered so anthracite coal was the best they had at the time. 

There are plenty of pictures of the electrics through the years as they evolved. 

It is a National Historic Landmark of the United States and has been designated a Civil Engineering landmark by both US and Canadian bodies.

The original tunnel is now closed and cannot be entered. A new tunnel was bored by CN to accomadate auto racks, intermodal and the whole change over to bigger and higher freight cars. Believe it or not they had to revert to ferries for a while to accomadate these. 

The new tunnel opened in late 1994 and was named the Paul M. Tellier Tunnel in 2004.

I am happy to say that I have been fortunate enough to have gone through both. My last trip was in 2004 in an Amtrak Superliner Coach on a trip to Chicago and then further West to Flagstaff. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, February 18, 2018 5:00 PM

Will do Father, I certainly don't want to offend anyone here!

Blame my Irish grandfather, he was as Roman Catholic as they come and used to blurt it out when he was amazed or frustrated, must have rubbed off on me.  Matter of fact, I think it must be a British Iles thing, English, Welsh, Scottish, or Irish, they all do it.

Wouldn't surprise me if the recent Indian and Pakistani immigrants to Britain are doing it too by now.

Won't happen again, I promise.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 18, 2018 5:44 PM

Not a British Isles thing...my Dad went to church every Sunday and that was a common term in his vast repertoire of cursing. He and his whole lineage was as far removed from the British Isles as can be. 

But woe unto me if I ever uttered one of those that I heard 200 times a day! Much like poor Ralphie in 'Christmas Story' I would be confronted head on with "where did you learn that?" 

Good grief!

Furthermore...Firelock, you would be ideal as a player on my curling team.  Getting the other team all flustered and off their game is a primary goal and cursing like that is quite effective, even if it's acting.

.....and you can smoke. All real curlers smoke..it's the only sport in the world with ashtrays along the ledge of the rink. The fiqure skaters are six miles away from the Canadian Men's Curling Team at the Olympics in Korea and complaining about second hand smoke. Good grief again!

I want you on my team!

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Posted by AgentKid on Sunday, February 18, 2018 5:53 PM

Miningman
where did you learn that?

Reminds me of a story a fellow I worked with years ago told about his Dad teaching him how to drive.

It was sort of the reverse of what you were saying. He said until that day he didn't know his Dad knew language like that!

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 18, 2018 7:43 PM

Here's William D. Middleton on the St. Clair Tunnel 0-10-0's (When the Steam Railroads Electrified 2nd Ed 2001 pg. 134)

Four extraordinary Baldwin 0-10-0T Camelback locomotives were used to haul trains through the St. Clair tube.  Weighing 90 tons, they were the world's largest steam locomotives at the time of their construction.  Anthracite was burned to minimize the smoke and gases, and special operating rules eliminated some of the hazards of steam operation in the long tunnel.  Firemen were instructed not to place green coal on their fires when running through the tunnel; train operations were spaced to permit gases to clear the tunnel; and the use of air brakes was prohibited in order to avoid a break-in-two that might stall a train in the tunnel.

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, February 19, 2018 5:48 PM

Vince, I had to pick myself up off the floor after reading your post!  Winding up on my hands and knees is the usual reaction I have while laughing and trying to down a gulp of Coca-Cola, not good when it comes out your nose!

And ice rink surrounded by ash trays!  Noe THAT I've gotta see!  Sounds like Canadian curlers have mastered the fine art of telling whiners, crybabys, health nuts, and assorted crusaders where to get off!

I'll tell you something else I picked up from my grandfather.  "Bloody."

I started using it when I was six or seven years old.  I was playing with a toy on the living room rug, things weren't going as they should, and I blurted out  "Ah, this bloody thing!"  just as my mother passed by.

Was she angry?  No, Mom went into hysterics!  "Oh yeah, you're Irish all right!"  was all she said when she stopped laughing!

Continuing the Irish thing, do know if Shenley's "OFC"  is still being made.  Lady Firestorm's dad loved the stuff, but only took it out to share with guests on special occasions like Christmas or New Years.  He said "OFC" stood for  "Only For Catholics!"  Can't find it here in the US anymore, but not for lack of trying.

Bloody good whiskey, by the way!

Wayne

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 19, 2018 6:13 PM

Firelock and all--

I see the delegation in the mixed curling representing Russia has been disqualified for doping.

Why on Gods Green Earth would anyone need to be doping for curling!??

This is a sport for old overweight smokers and has zip to do with athletic ability. The Skip needs a keen eye and a feather touch but thats it. Youth is actually a disadvantage because you don't know anything about anything about curling. This is a game for the wily, the crafty and the cunning. Young and athletic do not posses these qualities. Those guys and gals that do the all spread out swan imitation delivery look like idiots that really don't know what they are doing. When I see that, I know it's another victory for my rink. 

I have the dreaded 'Rhonda' on my team, to whom if I yell from the rings while she is in the hack, "Take em out" and point my broom off into the air at an angle, is the signal and call for the most furious and deadly rock, which after taking a puff of her Matinee' Extra and carefully setting it back into the ashtray, is sent hurling down  the sheet at ludicrous speed followed by the greatest explosion of ping-ponging one can imagine. The rings are cleared.  I can attest under oath that she has taken out 9 rocks at once on more than one occasion.

Gimme that Russian boob, he won't stand a chance against my rink.

...and Firelock, drinking whiskey or scotch is der rigour and kept right next to the ashtrays. You gotta stay warm out there you know, furious sweeping every 10 minutes or so for 20 sec. will not do it. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, February 19, 2018 6:55 PM

I cannot believe the Russkies are STILL doing the doping thing, especially in this day and age when it's so easy to get caught at it.

I guess some old Communist habits are hard to break.

Makes me understand why Nazis are so popular as movie villians, Commies are just so boring and predictable. 

Just to inject a little railroad back into this, I'm re-reading David P. Morgan's magnificent  "The Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate, And Other Tales."

Folks, if you EVER see it for sale anywhere don't let it get away from you.  These are tales of DPM's and Dr. Philip Hastings' steam safaris back in the 50's trying to catch what they could before the curtain came down.

From Canada to the American Midwest, DPM's incredible writing and Dr. Hastings' no less incredible photography tells the story wonderfully, and will almost bring you to tears over what's been lost.

Is progress worth it?  Sometimes, no, it's not.

I mean, look at all the smart-phone zombies running around loose, all slaves to their phones and lost without them.  You call that progress?

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, February 19, 2018 7:19 PM

Firelock76
Just to inject a little railroad back into this, I'm re-reading David P. Morgan's magnificent  "The Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate, And Other Tales."

Folks, if you EVER see it for sale anywhere don't let it get away from you.  These are tales of DPM's and Dr. Philip Hastings' steam safaris back in the 50's trying to catch what they could before the curtain came down.

If I could only keep one railfan book, that would be it--hands down!

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, February 19, 2018 7:52 PM

Firelock76
Continuing the Irish thing, do know if Shenley's "OFC"  is still being made. 

Schenley O.F.C. isn't Irish, it's Canadian, but I believe it's made in the same distillery in Lethbridge that makes Black Velvet.  They no longer market it in the States, but it can still be found in places like Alberta and Manitoba that have not forgotten the magic.

One reviewer said this: "As you allow the glass to breathe, the air above the glass becomes enriched with dusty grain fields, sandalwood and oak spices, hints of cinnamon and clove, and a touch of almond-like marzipan. If you like a typical dry Canadian Whisky, you will like the nose very much."

Yes!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, February 19, 2018 8:00 PM

Oh, I know it's not Irish, in fact the "OFC" stands for "Our Finest Canadian."

The "Irish" part comes from an appreciation of quality hard stuff.

One of these days I've got to get to Alberta or Manitoba, if that's what it takes.

Lady Firestorm was shocked, "You mean it doesn't stand for 'Only For Catholics?'"

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 19, 2018 8:25 PM

Yes Schenley OFC, about 46$ across the country. Distilled in Lethbridge Alberta, also makes Black Velvet. 

Well, maybe not in BC as they and Alberta have gone to economic war over the pipeline and Alberta slapped a 300% tariff on BC wines and they are retailiating. 

But here in Saskatchewan, no problem. I'm sticking with Crown Royal, still in that nifty purple velvet bag. Great place to keep your marbles in when I was a kid.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 12:07 AM

It's only wine that is affected by the current boycott, so no big deal.  Free trade in Crown Royal continues unabated in these parts.  The craft beer industry is booming in Alberta too, with new microbreweries springing up all over the place. 

Normally I try to stay out of politics on here, but it looks like BC is starting to realize they have bitten off a mite bit more than they can chew.  But we are still waiting for the Feds to step in an re-assert their jurisdictional authority (the pipeline project in question is interprovincial, making it a Federally-regulated project a individual province cannot block, and this one has already received Federal approval).  Until that happens this odd NDP vs NDP fight will continue.

At least Alberta and Saskatchewan were able to amicably resolve that ridiculous "licenseplategate" feud. Bang Head

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 12:16 AM

Miningman

This is a sport for old overweight smokers and has zip to do with athletic ability.

I was a big fan of Randy Ferbey when he represented Alberta, and always thought he looked like he'd had a few too many french fries from the rink's concession stand.  Didn't seem to affect his play though!

The Brier (Canada's top men's curling tournament) was named for a brand of tobacco produced by Macdonald (now a part of R.J. Reynolds), who were the event's first main sponsor.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Fr.Al on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 1:12 PM

Sorry to offend and I'm Scottish and Welsh on my mother's side, but I've tasted whisky from three of the Celtic nations. I'm afraid the stuff you Canadians call rye doesn't do it for me.

     My father who was from Ukraine rarely tasted whisky, but he liked the Irish stuff. I followed him in that, as well as pipe smoking, but I've given the latter up long ago. The 21st century did get some things right, in my opinion. Anyway, we all like the steam locomotives, eh?

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