This post is regarding the switching of the Rocky Mountain Rocket at Limon, Colorado.
Wayner's "Car Names, Numbers and Consists" states that a Chair/Postal Car and one Sleeper ran to Colorado Springs. Were additional Colorado Springs cars involved, maybe in the summer?
I have seen a picture of the two locomotives shuffling cars between the Denver and Colorado Springs trains and that the RI used the UP from Limon to Denver.
How much time did this switching take and where did the RI crew from Limon to Colorado Springs get on their train? I assume that one crew member was paid extra (an arbitrary) for uncoupling and coupling passenger hose and the steam line.
When was the Colorado Springs section discontinued?
Ed Burns
Retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Minneapolis and an ATCS host in Anoka,MN
Ed, the February, 1950, issueof the Guide shows a club diner that ran between Chicago and Colorado Springs, in addition to the coach and sleeper. The schedule shows twenty minutes from arrival to departure in Limon for the Colorado Springs section and westbound and fifteen minutes eastbound for the same section; it does not show the departure time for the wb Denver section, nor arrival time for the eb Denver section.
I would say that the Limon-Colorado Springs crew boarded at Limon and came back to Limon the same day, having worked about 157 miles in about eight and a half hours.
In November, 1963, there was only a through coach Chicago-Colorado Springs
Johnny
In the summer months there were additional cars that ran in the Colorado Springs section. The June 1954 OG shows the following equipment (car no's. are for the westbound train). Two chair cars #76 and 77; a Chi-Colo Spgs diner; two sleepers #73 a 8 Sec, 2 DBr, 2 Compartment car and #74 a 6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr car.
At the same time, equipment of the Denver section was: Two chair cars #78 and 79, a club diner, sleeper #72 a 10 Sec, 4 Rmt car, observation car #70 a 5 DBr, buffet lounge car.
Times in Limon are the same as Johnny noted and I feel he is right about the train crew working Limon - Colo Spgs and back the same day.
Mark
Recall that the two-unit lashup that pulled the train included an E-7 A-unit in the lead followed by the custom E-7 (or was it E-6?) AB, a square B-unit body with a front cab, the A-unit going to Denver, and the AB going to Colorado Springs. Probably in the summer, an additional unit was assigned, probabliy going to Denver. Occasionally Rock Island equipment would be transferred from CS to Denver or back, usually on the joint DRG&W-AT&SF train. When this happened there would be four railroads represented, because the through CB&Q cars for the Denver Zephyr from and to CS would be on the train. Excuse me, five, because sometimes the slumbercoach was NP (stainless steel) in pool service!
The original RPO-Coach for the CS section had 44 seats to the Denver coach's 52 seats, so it was really a fairly even split. Sleepers were 10Sec4Rmt and 5BR to Denver, 8Sec2DBR2Cpt to CS, also a fairly even split. The Kansas City sleeper was a Pullman pool-service Cascade series car. Before the AB6's were delivered, the CS section rated a whaleback-tendered Pacific, with the E3s going to Denver. Extra cars if needed came from the two groups of coaches purchased in 1940/41 and from the Pullman pool.
By August 1957 the split had changed a bit. The RPO-Coach had been rebuilt into a Club-Lounge and the consist looked like this east of Limon:
E(3/6/7)
AB6 (by this time twin-engined)
Baggage/RPO CS
Baggage Denver
52 seat coaches (one each Denver and CS)
Diner CS
Club-Diner Denver (rebuilt from RPO-Coach)
6Sec-6Rmt-4DBR sleeper (built for Golden State service) Denver
8-2-2 CS
8Rmt-6DBR CS
The 5DBR-lounge-obs seems to have been dropped by then.
As far as I can find the CS split lasted until the end of operations, but most likely with a boiler GP7 or GP9 taking the place of the AB6 west of Limon.
The City of Denver and the Denver Zephyr ran on nearly identical 14-1/2 hour schedules and were the preferred trains between Denver and Chicago. The Rocky Mountain Rocket ran on a slower, 17-1/2 hour schedule between the two cities. For this reason it's probable that the majority of the Rockets Denver passengers were going to/from the intermediate cities it served, Omaha excepted. The UP's faster City of Denver would have been preferred by Omaha Passengers.
On the other hand the Rocket was the only through train between Colorado Springs and points east so it would have been the train of choice between that city and even Chicago.
KCSfan On the other hand the Rocket was the only through train between Colorado Springs and points east so it would have been the train of choice between that city and even Chicago. Mark
After 1956 the DZ's through cars offered 18 hrs 45 min WB and 18 hrs 50 min EB. Before that a change to the Royal Gorge was required at Denver.
Don't forget about the MoPac's Colorado Eagle. Ran from Pueblo to St Louis. Anyone know when this train was discontinued?
It was a joint D&RGW - MP train and ran through to Denver on the joint with D&RGW crews west (north) of Pueblo. Usually, the MP power ran through. A small portion of the equpment was owned by the D&RGW but painted like the MP equipment. But it was not a Chicago - Denver train although of course one could connect with it from Chicago and ride to Colorado Springs or Denver.
KCSfan The City of Denver and the Denver Zephyr ran on nearly identical 14-1/2 hour schedules and were the preferred trains between Denver and Chicago. The Rocky Mountain Rocket ran on a slower, 17-1/2 hour schedule between the two cities. For this reason it's probable that the majority of the Rockets Denver passengers were going to/from the intermediate cities it served, Omaha excepted. The UP's faster City of Denver would have been preferred by Omaha Passengers. On the other hand the Rocket was the only through train between Colorado Springs and points east so it would have been the train of choice between that city and even Chicago. Mark
I've heard that traffic for Colorado Springs was heavier than that for Denver.
As to the psgr trainmen getting an arbitrary for working the steam/air connections, I've seen some pictures (Some have appeared in Kalmbach publications, so they may be available somewhere on their site. Most likely MR side) where you can see a car man standing next to the uniformed trainman while making the switching moves. The car man would be the one to do that work. If there wasn't a car man available and the trainman had to do the work, then he would get an arbitrary for doing it.
Jeff
Not to get too far off topic, but I observed a similar situation in South Amboy, NJ in 1982. Two carmen were assigned to break and make the steam/signal/air connections when the motive power on North Jersey Coast Line suburban trains was changed from a GG1 to a pair of E8A's.
We have often driven US 24 from between Limon and Colorado Springs along the now torn-up RI route. Does anybody have a link to photos of the Colorado Springs section of the Rocket on that track with the AB6 as power?
Not in motion, but (I'm guessing by the pilot covers being open) at Limon:
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/45505
The poster needs a copy of "Where the Rockets Wed", April 1953 TRAINS Magazine.
CSSHEGEWISCH Not to get too far off topic, but I observed a similar situation in South Amboy, NJ in 1982. Two carmen were assigned to break and make the steam/signal/air connections when the motive power on North Jersey Coast Line suburban trains was changed from a GG1 to a pair of E8A's.
Something similar happened on the NYC when I used to ride it 50 years ago thru the electric/diesel change-over point at North White Plains, NY. IIRC the conductor would stand on the platform where he could see the carman work the connections, while it turn the engine crew could see the conductor. Of course the car mans work was made more hazardous by the nearby 3rd rail.
i used to live in colorado springs, wow limon is in the middle of nowhere lol . i remember trackage coming in from the east thru widefield/ security i wonder who ran on that route
Two lines came from the east into Limon, the Rock Island and the Union Pacific line from Kansas City, the former Kansas Pacific line.
Ed, what would have been the weekly schedule in July of 1950 into Denver for the Rocket. I don't believe it ran daily in 1950, but it left Burlington, CO at 5:23AM and arrived in Denver at about 8:30AM.
Thx Jim
Westbound split at Limon between 6:39 and 6:53 AM, eastbound join between 2:25 and 2:40 PM. Here's a link to the 1941 schedule - it didn't change a whole lot over the years - it was a daily train in the 40s through the end of service in the 1960s. The line into Denver was the UP's Kansas Pacific, which the RI used on trackage rights. From what I remember RI engines were serviced at UP's Denver facilities.
www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/rockymtrocket194106.html
rcdryeWestbound split at Limon between 6:39 and 6:53 AM, eastbound join between 2:25 and 2:40 PM. Here's a link to the 1941 schedule - it didn't change a whole lot over the years - it was a daily train in the 40s through the end of service in the 1960s. The line into Denver was the UP's Kansas Pacific, which the RI used on trackage rights. From what I remember RI engines were serviced at UP's Denver facilities. www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/rockymtrocket194106.html
I am surprised the the RI was in anyway competitive in the Chicago-Denver market with the Rocky Mountain Rocket - Dept. Chicago 1:55 PM Arrive Denver 8:25 AM.
The competition - City of Denver - Chicago 6:20 PM Denver 9:20 AMDenver Zephyr - Chicago 5:30 PM Denver 8:30 AM
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am assuming the "107-7" out of Belleville would have been the same thing everyday, including in the July of 1950. I don't suppose there is any way to tell what kind of engine was pulling it?
Thx
Jim
Knowing the Rock Island, it could have been anything from a TA to a BL2, but most likely an FP7. RI also had boiler-equipped GP7s and RS3s, but they were mostly used on Chicago suburban runs.
The BL2's were also in the Chicago suburban pool. B&M was the only other road to use BL2's in suburban service.
RI did not get much Chicago - Denver business, but on-line communiies did use the servicd, and it certainly was competitive Chicago - Colorado Springs.
Sounds a lot like the Erie. Not too much Chicago-New York end-to-end business, but a fair amount of traffic to the intermediate points. It goes a long way in explaining why the "Lake Cities" lasted until 1970.
CSSHEGEWISCHNot too much Chicago-New York end-to-end business, but a fair amount of traffic to the intermediate points.
I always thought of the Erie passenger service as kinda like a 'typical' New-York-to-Chicago train turned inside-out: the whole point of the thing was to get New York passengers to the intermediate points, while beginning to pick up passengers for Chicago at those same points, and of course vice versa in the opposite direction. The trains might well leave their terminals virtually empty and still provide excellent intermediate service to communities not directly served in a comparable way by 'competition'.
This was a drawback to the Lackawanna's approach with the cutoff improvements, which could rocket its service as far as Buffalo but, from there, could only be 'in competition' with the NYC Water Level Route (via, say, the 'fifth-system' routing on the Nickel Plate) so half your prospective origin and destination pairs as well as end-to-end services are out of contention.
While I doubt 'internal passenger service' was much of a priority consideration by the time EL was deciding which of its routes to 'keep' in the early '60s, it might have been interesting to consider alternatives east of Buffalo, with whatever arrangements might need to be built to allow traffic from the ex-Lackawanna to reach the ex-Erie main further west (as I believe was considered for high-speed intermodal traffic)
Both the B&O and the Lackawanna - Nickel Plate got Jersey-Suburban - Chicago business from those who found it a lot more convient to board at Elizabeth or Summit than to go to Manhattan, Newark, or Croton-Harmon. Check the premier-train schedules and you will that none bypassed those stations. Not sure about the Erie at Passaic, but the B&O and Lackawanna - Nickel Plate offered lounge and dining service competitive with the Central and Pennsy.
By the time of the EL-DL&W merge, of course most of that business headed for Newark Airport.
I did ride the EL Lake Cities Hoboken - Chicago November or December 1969. Sleeper dropped at Youngstown, diner at Huntington. Still, a comfortable and enjoyable, trip with good food in an uncrowded, but not empty, dining car.
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