I am just guessing but two possibilities come to mind.
I know the Ga RR never had it but there may have been Automatic Train Stop installed on the West Point Route at one time. Since the Ga RR's engines were not equipped for ATS they had to stay on their home rails.
The other possibility is that radio communications were used on one road (probably the West Point Route) but not yet on the other (Ga RR). Of course the reverse could have been true but in any event since the engines of one road were not originally radio equipped they could not run on the rails of the other.
Mark
Gee, if you're gonna make us sweat all the details, I have two guesses for no. 2:
The change of diesels from road-specific to run through was occasioned by:
The new technology of diesels, which didn't have to be refuled so often, and never needed the ashes removed, and so could run for hundreds of miles, allowing, say, a diesel to run thru Atlanta or nearby division points (and involving two or more of the constitutent companies' lines) without decoupling the engine for "feeding and watering" and putting on a different one; and/or
A change in labor practices under which the union allowed some runs to be run-throughs (e.g.., CoG/SouRwy a possible example) whereas the individual lines' terminals in the past had been end-of-line = mandatory crew change.
Notice that I set it up as an "and/or" for any of you Philadelphia lawyers lurking out there.
BTW if I have somehow stumbled over the line into completing the answer, I don't think I deserve the win. Give it to Mike, as he furnished most of the correct info. - al
Right forest, (legal) wrong tree (lease.)
The Georgia Railroad was owned by the Georgia Railroad & Banking Company, not the State of Georgia. (The Western & Atlantic was, and still is, owned by the State of Georgia.) By the time we are discussing (circa 1962), it was leased jointly by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad and the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, the Central's interest in the lease having been eliminated in the early 1890's and assumed by the L&N (which assigned it to the ACL.)
The Southern had nothing to do with it, nor did the fact that the Georgia Railroad was a leased property
Good shot, but off the mark.
Bob Hanson
The exact legal impediment remains unknown. The change of ownership was Southern Ry's purchase of Central of Georgia, which, jointly with L&N , had leased Georgia RR from the State.
Mike
About this time SR and L&N were brougt up apart of these lines since the early 50s. They were aquire as a parnership. They lines still run under thier old names until the 70s. Just look at the early diesels some were painted like SR and L&N but had diffent names. L&N even paid for the restoring of the General and the Texas for the 100 anniversary of thier famous trip.
It wasn't public relations.
Your second guess is a bit vague. Can you elaborate?
Bob
AWP290 In the later years of the Georgia Group of railroads (A&WP-WofA-GaRR), the diesel units were run interchangeably between roads (GaRR and West Point Route.) This practice started only in the early 1960's, however, and in the 1950's the units stayed on home rails. Why?
In the later years of the Georgia Group of railroads (A&WP-WofA-GaRR), the diesel units were run interchangeably between roads (GaRR and West Point Route.) This practice started only in the early 1960's, however, and in the 1950's the units stayed on home rails.
Why?
Public relations. The first diesels were bound to get noticed, so they let people see their own state or capital city painted on a locomotive.
Another wild guess is some kind of legal impediment until the ownership changed.
I got about 50-75% of the answer, since eating dinner on the Tennesean while in Alexandria gave the right train and the right answer for one of the two meals, without the name of the diner being necessary. But I'll be glad to defer to Johnny for the next quesiton if he wishes to ask it. He probably knew the complete answer without looking at mine, since he actually ate meals on the trian, where I brown bagged it, since I was a youngster and my parents had equipped me with the food to eat on the train, the one time I actually did ride the Tennesean.
To go back to the previous question for a moment, the train was, indeed, the Tennessean. You could have a meal in Chattanooga aboard the Virginia, or conversely, you could have a meal in Virginia aboard the Chattanooga.
And you could have a meal in Alexandria while in Tennessee.
AWP290 The diners were: 3300-3302, all named Virginia, 3303, named Chattanooga (that's probably the one you were looking for), and 3304, named Alexandria. Sources: 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book; also Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7, Southeastern Railroads, by W. David Randall. If you think about it, either answer would suffice, as both fill your requirements. Bob Hanson
The diners were:
3300-3302, all named Virginia, 3303, named Chattanooga (that's probably the one you were looking for), and 3304, named Alexandria.
Sources: 1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book; also Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7, Southeastern Railroads, by W. David Randall.
If you think about it, either answer would suffice, as both fill your requirements.
You answered the basic question, named the train and one of the roads (or, did you peek at Dave Klepper's answer?)
The three cars named Virginia were operated on the Southerner, according to Robert Wayner (Car NamesNumbers and Consists). So, you could eat several different meals in Virginia while in many different states not named "Virginia."
I never did really note which car I was in when I ate breakfast out of Knoxville or when I ate dinner out of Bristol, but I did see both cars in service on the Tennessean.
Johnny
Oh, yeah - I need to ask a question.
As much as I love the old passenger trains, this question does not necessarily pertain to passenger service.
Why? (I didn't learn the reason until 10 years after I left the A&WP.)
AWP290 The Southern's Tennessean equipment order included two diners, Alexandria, and Virginia. If you ate a meal in either of these diners the situation you describe would be possible. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
The Southern's Tennessean equipment order included two diners, Alexandria, and Virginia. If you ate a meal in either of these diners the situation you describe would be possible.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
Both diners were part of the original equipment of the Tennessean (in 1941); they were still in operation in 1963 (I ate dinner in one of them in May of 1963), and I imagine that they were used as long as the diners ran Washington-Knoxville. I have the impression that after the diner operation was changed Roanoke to Bristol on 41 and Bristol to Roanoke on 46 an N&W diner was used (I ate breakfast in an N&W diner on 41 in September of 1966).
daveklepper The mistakes in the routing in the song Chattanooga Choo Choo Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo. Track 29 (actually an LIRR track). YOu can give me a shine. Can you afford, to board the Chattanooga Choo Choo? I've got my fare, and a trifle to spare. YOu leave the Pennsylvania Station around a quarter of four. Read a magazine and you're in Baltimore. Dinner in the diner. NOthing could be finer. The to have your h_m and eggs in Carolina. (I substitute grits and eggs. NOthing not Kosher) When you hear the engine blowing eight to the bar. The you'll know that Tennessee is not very far. Shovel a little more ocal in. Got to keep her rollin'. Whoo Whoo Chattanooga, there you are. There's goin' to be a certain party at the station. Satin and Lace. I used to call funny face. She's goin' to cry. Until I tell here that I'll never roam. Chattanooga Choo Choo, won't you choo choo me home. The only logical routing from NY is PRR-Southern-N&W-Southern. Leaving NY at 15:45 should have you in Alexandria around dinner time, but the train with schedule that best approximates this in of course the Tennesean, in the immediate latter WWII period. That explains the other anomoly..
The mistakes in the routing in the song Chattanooga Choo Choo
Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo. Track 29 (actually an LIRR track). YOu can give me a shine. Can you afford, to board the Chattanooga Choo Choo? I've got my fare, and a trifle to spare. YOu leave the Pennsylvania Station around a quarter of four. Read a magazine and you're in Baltimore. Dinner in the diner. NOthing could be finer. The to have your h_m and eggs in Carolina. (I substitute grits and eggs. NOthing not Kosher) When you hear the engine blowing eight to the bar. The you'll know that Tennessee is not very far. Shovel a little more ocal in. Got to keep her rollin'. Whoo Whoo Chattanooga, there you are. There's goin' to be a certain party at the station. Satin and Lace. I used to call funny face. She's goin' to cry. Until I tell here that I'll never roam. Chattanooga Choo Choo, won't you choo choo me home.
The only logical routing from NY is PRR-Southern-N&W-Southern. Leaving NY at 15:45 should have you in Alexandria around dinner time, but the train with schedule that best approximates this in of course the Tennesean, in the immediate latter WWII period. That explains the other anomoly..
The Georgia history texts that I studied (twice) in school said that the area between the Savannah River and Florida was disputed territory and that England established the Goergia colony to protect the Carolina colony. It was never, accoring to the texts, a part of Carolina.
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice.
Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
The South Carolina history textbook that my son is using today in the third grade, states that both Georgia and North Carolina were apart of the Carolina Colony By King Charles and Queen Charlotte in 1660. The NorthCarolina Transportation Museum has in their record that the Queen is name for Charlotte, NC. As for the"Lords Proprietors" Sir Williams Hilton is a distance family member.
KCSfan wanswheel: C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa That's the other one I had in mind. However since Johnny correctly identified two of the three trains I'm going to declare him the winner. Mark
wanswheel: C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa
C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa
That's the other one I had in mind. However since Johnny correctly identified two of the three trains I'm going to declare him the winner.
New question: how was it possible to eat in Chattanooga while traveling in Virginia? And, to eat in Alexandria while traveling in Tennessee? Be specific, as to road(s) and train.
Southerngreen1401 You have the wrong Queen City. The city is Charlotte, N.C. Charleston, SC was name for King Charles and Charlotte was his queen. I lived in both cities. Both North, and South Carolina along with Georgia were a part of the Carolina Colony before they broke them apart in the early 1700.
You have the wrong Queen City. The city is Charlotte, N.C. Charleston, SC was name for King Charles and Charlotte was his queen. I lived in both cities. Both North, and South Carolina along with Georgia were a part of the Carolina Colony before they broke them apart in the early 1700.
The route from Cincinnati to New Orleans via Chattanooga and Birmingham was long known as the "Queen and Crescent Route," and, for many years, the Southern Railway and its predecessors which operated the train had one called the Queen and Crescent.
From the history of South Carolina that I studied in the sixth grade, I learned that Carolina (established in 1663 and separated into two provinces in 1729) was a separate colony from Georgia, and it came into being when King Charles II gave a large area to certain lords (known as "Lords Proprietors") who had supported him. Charles Town (later, Charleston) was named for this king. The colony of Georgia was established in 1732 during the reign of King George II and was named for him. It never was a part of Carolina.
I know this that some of this post is , but I felt constrained to state some facts known from history, both railroad and non-railroad.
wanswheel C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa
Southerngreen1401 There was two other steamliners name in honor of women. Queen Cresant and Blue Bell.
There was two other steamliners name in honor of women. Queen Cresant and Blue Bell.
The first train you mention was actually the Southern Ry's Queen & Crescent. It was named for the two cities it connected, Cincinnati (the Queen City) and New Orleans (the Crescent City).
I am familiar with the Bluebonnet, the Blue Comet, the Royal Blue, the Bluebird, the Banner Blue, the Southern Belle and the Liberty Bell but I've never heard of the Blue Bell. If you have any info about such a train please share it with us.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B05E2DC133EE433A25750C2A9619C94609FD7CF
Oops, my mistake. There were actually three streamliners named for real women. I had forgotten about the Pocahontos which, along with the Ann Rutledge, Johnny has correctly identified. As Al has pointed out, Phoebe Snow was a made up name so that one doesn't count. Neither does the Nancy Hanks which like its twin, the Man o' War, was named for a race horse.
Two down and one to go. Who can identify the remaining train?
Deggesty Streamlined trains named for: real women: N&W's Pocahontas, Norfolk-Cincinnati, & GM&O's Ann Rutledge, Chicago-St. Louis the Lackawanna's symbol for anthracite: Phoebe Snow, Hoboken-Buffalo a race horse that was named for a real woman: CG's Nancy Hanks II, Savannah-Atlanta
Streamlined trains named for:
real women: N&W's Pocahontas, Norfolk-Cincinnati, & GM&O's Ann Rutledge, Chicago-St. Louis
the Lackawanna's symbol for anthracite: Phoebe Snow, Hoboken-Buffalo
a race horse that was named for a real woman: CG's Nancy Hanks II, Savannah-Atlanta
"I won my fame and wide acclaim
for Lackawanna's splendid name
by keeping bright and snowy white
upon the Road of Anthracite." - attrib. to Phoebe Snow, very approx. WWI.
I had thought that Phoebe Snow was a created advertising icon, something like Betty Crocker or Ann Page. Am I wrong? - al-in-chgo
Here's your next question. To the best of my knowledge there were only two streamlined trains named after women. Name the two trains, the railroads that hosted them and their routes?
Give Mark a box of used clearance cards!
The key was, indeed, the word "into." The W&A was the first road in the area (there actually was no town called "Terminus", it was just a construction camp, much as the UP men called theirs "End of Track.") but the W&A built out of the area, not into it.
The Georgia Railroad entered Marthasville in September of 1845. The town was renamed Atlanta several months later.
For bonus points - can anyone tell me who named Atlanta? And where the name was first used?
Over to you, Mark.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter