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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 9, 2020 6:09 AM

OK. a give-away, and almost anyone should be able to answer:  TARS and NYRys did not share power or conduit , and there was no offset or double conduit in this stretch of track, which was a unique arrangemjent for on-street trackage, possibly unique for all North America.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 9, 2020 8:11 AM

NYRys one way on 42nd St, TARS the other?  I don't have the resources handy to pick this one apart easily.  Now in Chicago or San Francisco...

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 9, 2020 10:22 AM

Both systems operated both ways on 42nd, 10th-12th.  The street RoW was dublicated by about five other exampes in N. America, but the way it was operated was not.

The arrangement was disrujptive to regular auto traffic (prior to 1936).

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 9, 2020 10:59 AM

It's pretty obvious that you had the two conductors on opposite sides of the plow, with running-rail return at least in the 'dual' section, with one company supplying all the conduit DC power to one side's rail and the other on the opposite.  Hence the different access manholes to get to service that part.  

Interesting to see what goes to what to get around the corner, perhaps.

This is not intended as an answer, only a hint.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 9, 2020 1:08 PM

Nope.   How would that effect auto traffic in any unusual way?

The technology of conduit operation did not permit what you propose.

The answer is a lot lot  simpler.

A photo of the terminal at 12th Avenue prior to 1936 would easily show you the answer, or any location with cars of both companies with those of at least one for both directions.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 9, 2020 4:16 PM

So each line ran both ways on its own track?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:52 AM

Yes.

And what was the difference that created a problem for motorists?  As compared with NO Canal St., SF Market St., and NYC The Bowery? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 5:54 AM

In New Orleans and San Francisco (and the Bowery) the cars ran with traffic,  Apparently on 42nd Street leaving space for motor vehicles was an afterthought, with eastbound streetcars running in what otherwise would have been the westbound lane.  There were a few stretches of "wrong way" streetcar track in other cities, usually because the city made the street one way while both tracks remained.  One of the most famous was Pine Street in San Francisco, where Cal Cable's O'Farrell Jones & Hyde cars went west a block.  Outbound cars went wrong way on the one way street.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 6:10 AM

Yes, there were four tracks.  The other examples have a pair of adjacent tracks going one way next to a pair of adjacent tracks going the other way.

On W 42 each pair___________

Complete the sentence, please.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:41 AM

daveklepper
On W 42 each pair___________

Oh, this doesn't look good.  You mean you had bidirectional traffic on EACH pair, and the one pair turned across the other into a one-way street... that can't be good.  How could you watch in all those directions at once?

Was this in the era of the 'old-style' NYC traffic lights, where they only had red and green aspects and both lit up to warn you the light was about to turn red?  

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:07 PM

Yes, a separate pair for each company, side-by-side.

You and RC can decide who asks the next one.   And yes, the traffic light arrangement was as you described --- except that the intersection of the north-south avenues did not have traffic lights at every minor cross-street. and a driver on an Avenue was expected to obey the nearest one ahead, which might be three or four blocks ahead.  The cross-street driver would wait untill the avenue trasffic stopped.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:28 PM

The eastbound NYRys track became the westbound TARS track, and the westbound TARS track became its eastbound track.  My map may be in error, in that there is some evidence TARS took over the old NYRys sizzors crossovers as newer and in better condition than its own, with the post 1936 reverse curves at the terminal the opposite of what i drew.  Correction when time is available.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:34 PM

TARS dutifully salvaged all its manhole covers from the former eastbound track.  But their re-use for the ex-NYRys track at the south portion of Times Square had priority, making continued use of some NYRys covers on 42nd St. necessary.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 13, 2020 5:24 AM

Oveermod or RC, please ask a new question.  Thanks.

 

still strggling with Overmod's tender-enkgine question

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 13, 2020 6:49 PM

A passenger diesel built in the 1930s for a particular train stayed with the train when the line it ran on changed ownership.  The engine was later rebuilt for more general service (it ended up in local freight service) and stayed active until retired around 1960.  Name the railroads and the train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 14, 2020 10:41 PM

The Alton's Abraham Lincoln, also used on the Ann Rutledge later, making a round trip each going on one and returning on the other, then operated by the GM&O, same train names.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 15, 2020 3:17 AM

Chicago - St. Louis, of course.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, November 15, 2020 6:32 AM

The locomotive was B&O 50, later Alton/GM&O 1200.  Identical internally to EMC demonstrators 511 and 512, and Santa Fe 1/1A (at least as built.  B&O applied a shovel nose for Abraham Lincoln service, later removed by the Alton.  After retirement around 1959, it was donated to the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis.

Your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 15, 2020 8:25 AM

On the "Remembering the Third Avenue Elevated" thread are photos of the 99th Street Shop.  This was the main shop for the Manhattan Elevated system, and was retained by the IRT as its shop for all wood rolling stock, and retained that roll for Manhattan-Bronx wood cars into the NYCTA period until the Elevated ceased service south of 149th Street, The Bronx.

Aside from purely musuem operations, the  Democratic World has one main railway shop, serving all railway equipment of its system, and only wood equipment.  Whose? Where? Which routes?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, November 15, 2020 12:14 PM

San Francisco's Cable Car shop at Mason and Washington in San Francisco serves the Powell-Mason, Powell-Hyde and California Street lines, all wooden cars...Although there is a museum there, the shop does actual work on in-service cars, at least when the cable lines are operating.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 16, 2020 1:55 AM

You are correct, except it is not the main or only shop of the MUNI system, and MUNI does own plenty of steel cars.

The shop I am looking for serves cars of two different gauges, even though connected to tracks of only one gauge.  Also cars of two different types of power energy.  Three routes are supported, one's ownership is slightly differrent, even though all are government supported.  All are scenic, one way or another.  No freight is handled on two routes.  The third does handle freight, indeed its freight service is essential, but the freight is carried, I think mainly in the passenger equipment., since I never saw any freight trailer if there is one.  All equipment is wood.

At each of two points on one rouite, one point being the interchange with the route with a different gauge, the exists a small steam very-narrow-gauge tourist line.  (Two different ultra-narrow-gauge steam-operated lines, each with one locomotive.)

Pictures of almost all of this are on a past thread on a Trains forum.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 17, 2020 1:38 PM

Two of the lines whose wood cars are overhauled here have unique technology.   One's technolody is truly unique and carries the name of its inventor.   Thf other's technology, if indeed it can be called that, is unique only to modern rail systems, but was once common world-wide, and still is in non-ral applications, especially in under-developed countries and in sport in developed ones.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:52 AM

The repair shop is located on the edge of its city with track connection to the two lines of the same gauge, but very different power.  The power on the line to the downtown area goes by individual names, inclding William and Mark.  Again, the equipment of a  line  with a different gauge is also repaired here.

The city also has a  separate rail operation, same guage but currently without a track connection, and a short walk is required.  It has its uwn separate repair faciility for its wood passenger coaches, single diesel railcar, bus, and steam locomotives.  It had three lines, now down to one, but possibilities restoring a second exist.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 1:13 PM

Here is ehe dual gauge track wherec trucks are exchaned to permit the odd-gauge rolling stock to be moved to the wood-car only repair shop:

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 1:20 PM

And here is the ultra-narrow=gauge tourist line near t6he location of the previous photo:

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:42 PM

And a view from the line whose special technology goes by the inventor's name.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 20, 2020 4:23 AM

I'm certain there are  readers who have known the answer fr some time, and I'd truly like to know why they have not posted an aswer.

Becauae they do not wish to pose a new question?

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 21, 2020 7:57 PM

All current photos assiciated with this question are courtesy of Jack May.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 22, 2020 2:57 AM

Here is what may be termed a scenic view on the line connecting the transfer station and overhaul shop with dowmtown:

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 22, 2020 3:07 AM

And anuther:

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