Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:52 PM

The TH&B ( Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo Rwy.) ran daily service trains Toronto-Buffalo and return. 4 Canadian Pacific steam locomotives were specially equipped with a device not required anywhere else on the CPR or the TH&B. The TH&B Hudson's used in this service already came with the device. 

2659 Squaw Island, Buffalo, New York. January 7, 1939 Bud Laws Collection

2662 northbound for Toronto in Buffalo, New York. Bud Laws Collection

2662 with Buffalo train bound for Toronto. TH&B Hunter Street station Hamilton 10/01/1950 

Note: This was a John Street protect engine by this time. 

So what was the device, this special requirement and why only on this part of the system? 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 2:01 PM

Automatic Train Stop (ATS).  Required on the MC/NYC Welland-Buffalo.  Looks like the "shoe" is on the trailing axle of the lead tender truck.

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 2:56 PM

You betcha! Diving in head first with the correct answer in record time.

In 1929 four passenger engines (all Pacific 4-6-2) were equipped with Automatic Train Control (ATC) to operate over the NYC between Welland and Buffalo. G2 class 2659 and 2662 and G4 class 2714 and 2715. G3's 2332 and 2337 replaced 2714 and 2715 which were transferred to Western Lines in February and July
of 1938. In 1948 all four were replaced by three modern Pacifics 2398 and brand new MLW built G3j 2465 and 2469 built in June and July after which only three more 2400's were built. Note: 2662 may have been kept as a John Street protect engine with ATC. See 1950 photo above at TH&B Hunter Street station. 

ATC equipment connected to right side tender truck second axle.

rcdrye has the fine honour of the next question. 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 3:14 PM

Miningman
In 1929 four passenger engines (all Pacific 4-6-2) were equipped with Automatic Train Control (ATC) to operate over the NYC between Welland and Buffalo.

Note that rcdrye was correct; this equipment is ATS, not ATC.  The only thing it does is penalty-brake the train if signals are missed; it does not control speed.

The actual train-control box location ought to be specified -- my guess is that it's under the cab, as I see cabling going there, but many American roads sited it to be easy to access and maintain (but comparatively away from road dust and thrown debris).  The only ATS 'equipment' on the tender truck is the inductive shoe.  The position of the shoe is interesting; it would be difficult to mount on a composite trailing truck, and of course not on an inside-bearing lead truck, so it goes on the tender; I notice that the truck is pushed up to the very front of the tender for better stability, so there is limited clearance, and presumably dynamic stability of the truck is better with the shoe on the trailing rather than leading axle anyway.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:38 PM

Yup, right on, thanks for the correction. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:21 PM

The Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac had ATS as well.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 5, 2020 6:32 AM

Since the ATS box isn't on the front deck it's probably on top of the tender. 

ATS, ATC and cab signal systems all had hardware that looked more or less the same, but the internals were different.  This led to lots of interesting situations on detour moves, even fairly recently.  Amtrak detours out of Chicago on the C&NW in the F40PH era got a borrowed C&NW engine until someone figured out that the ex-IC E-units could be assigned since they had a compatible ATS setup.  Eventually someone at Beech Grove assembled the "Cab Signal from Hell" which could be set up on multiple systems onto some of the F40 fleet.  Even today Amtrak has to pay attention to assignments with ATS active in the LA basin, ACSES on Amtrak lines and I-ETMS everywhere except for the ITCS installations near Chicago.

 

This publicly-owned line served two military bases.  It also interchanged with two of its three class I connections via water.  Even though its primary job was to serve shipping, it did not run its own car float operations.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 6:19 AM

Even though this belt line only served the city it was located in, it wasn't owned by the city.  At one point in its route it crossed the tracks of both privately and publicly owned street railways.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:39 AM

This would be San Francisco's local switching railroad that had (among other tracks) the tracks on the Embarcadaro that are now used by MUNI's E and F heritage operations.  Don't remember the official name of the operation.  It did last through WWII and several years later.  San Fancisco Belt?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:49 PM

State Belt Railway.  The tracks in the Embarcadero were largely paved over in the 1980s. Today's F-Line is all new track, but bits and pieces of the State Belt can still be found.  At Market Street it crossed both Muni and Market Street Railway tracks before 1944, and ran side-by-side with the Sacramento-Clay cable car.

The State Belt interchanged directly with SP near the 3rd and Townsend SP station, by water with AT&SF at China Basin (near Oracle Park, home of the SF Giants), and by water with Western Pacific at Pier 43.  The Pier 43 float bridge is still intact.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 2:21 PM

For many years, the State-of-Maine New York (GCT) - Bangor NYNH&H-B&M-MC train carried a NY - Concord, NH, sleeper that was dropped off at Ayer or Lowell and picked up by an early mozrning Boston - Concord train, with the reverse in the evening for the return trip.  Rode it by myself or with a camp group with multiple sleepers many times  At Ayer or Lowell its direction of travel was reversed, much as the whole consist of the NY- Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian endures today.

The PRR and Southern Ry. had a similar sleeper well into the post-WWII era. from and to Penn Sta NYC.  What was the southern destination, where was the reversal, and which trains did it use?

And why would I use it instead of the faster and more frequent competition?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 13, 2020 7:44 PM

The Concord sleeper was cut out of the State of Maine at Lowell.

In 1948 PRR/SR offered a Pullman from New York to Raleigh NC (better served by Seaboard Air Line) that would have reversed direction in Greensboro NC.  PRR 137 (the Mount Vernon and Southern Railway Express) NYC-WAS, SR 39 Washington-Greensboro, SR 14 Greensboro-Raleigh. 137 left New York at 6:30PM with a PRR diner and diner-parlor in the consist.  Northbound 13 to Greensboro, 38 (Crescent) to Washington, and PRR 118 which carried only SR Cars from the Crescent, the Aiken-Augusta Special and the Asheville Special, and of course an SR diner, arriving after a nice breakfast at 9:15 AM.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 15, 2020 3:38 AM

Please complete the answer and Then ask the next question.

Times of arrivals and departures in both directions.  Description of the trains used between Greensboro and Raliegh.

On one occasion the State-of-Maine Concord sleeper was dropped at Ayer for some obscure reason.  More than once, I do not know.

And thd Raleigh - NY sleeper was still running in 1957!

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 15, 2020 2:58 PM

The 1948 and 1957 SR Official Guide listings don't give a lot of info about 13 and 14, the trains between Raleigh and Greensboro that carried the New York sleeper.  The train istelf went on to Goldsboro.  There were two other Pullman-carrying trains that shared at least some of the line in both 1948 and 1957, one being the Carolina Special from Chicago.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, March 15, 2020 3:19 PM

The 1953 Guide I have out lists the arrival in Raleigh at 8:40 in the morning as the arrival and 6:00 in the evening as the departure. No meals were served between Greensboro and Goldsboro.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 16, 2020 4:47 AM

Basically, I wanted a full business day in Raleigh after and before such in NYC, after the Owl from Boston the night before and either a concert and then the Owl or the Merchants to Boston after returning from Raleigh.  Don't remember just what I did for dinner before or after leaving Raleigh.  Amd I did not want to leave or arrive Raleigh very late at night.  I do remember being pleased with having made the decision.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 16, 2020 6:00 AM

daveklepper
Basically, I wanted a full business day in Raleigh after and before such in NYC, after the Owl from Boston the night before and either a concert and then the Owl or the Merchants to Boston after returning from Raleigh.

Of course that makes sense.  The SAL service was geared almost entirely to the Florida market, with no setouts at Raleigh.  I did notice the times in both directions allowed for good meals at the north end...

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 16, 2020 8:37 AM

Let's have your next question and any other info you wish to add.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 17, 2020 7:33 AM

Even though this railroad had its own trains, and even its own sleepers, between Chicago and the next "metropolis" to the west, it advertised other railroads' trains as the preferred way to connect with its west coast and western regional trains.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 17, 2020 9:21 AM

Possibly the other railroads provided servce from a different eastern origine?  Or served different intermediate points?

It would be logical for the AT&SF to show Chicago - KC CB&Q KC connections, possibly CRI&P as well. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 17, 2020 11:58 AM

On the Chicago-next metropolis segment it was not a major carrier, being better known for the destination trains.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 21, 2020 4:22 PM

On the Chicago - major city run, the sleeper was carried in two different trains on its route, with the transfer at a small intermediate station.  At least three of the competitors on its run ran through sleeping cars and parlor cars with no change.  Two of those were advertised as preferred connections.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 22, 2020 9:37 AM

The railroad was the SOO (Minneapolis St. Paul and Saulte Ste. Marie); the sleeper left Chicago on a train to Duluth and/or Saulte Ste. Marie and arrived in St. Paul on a train from Manitowoc or Saulte Ste. Marie.  If the former, the connection point would have been Marshfield or Menasha; if the latter, Widconsin Junction, Prentise, or Ladysmith. The car probably did go on from St. Paul to Minneapolis.

The CB&Q, C&NW, and CMStP&P all had good overnight as well as fast day trains between Chiccago and the Twin Cities.  These were advertised connections for the SOO - CP trains to Winnapeg and Vancouver.

I have not been able to confirm this via the Internet, but I believe the through Chicago cars of the Soo-Dominion to Vancouver were handled by the Milwaukee St. Paul - Chicago, and did not go via the SOO itself.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 22, 2020 2:16 PM

Prety good.  The connection station f or the Twin Citieswas Owen WI, with the through cars continuing to Superior/Duluth.  C&NW's Viking was the first choice for connections to the Soo-Dominion.  The Milwaukee's Hiawatha was the preferred connection for the Winnipeger.  The Soo did run its own through cars for the summer Mountaineer during the 1920s, but by the 1930s they had joined the year-round cars on the Viking. Through cars were dropped during WWII, and never restored.

Soo Line operated its own sleeping cars (often jointly with Canadian Pacific) for the most part, though it had a contract with Pullman.  The Soo participated in a Pullman line (with the Milwaukee) from Chicago to Sault Ste. Marie via Pembine WI.  The summer trains were heavy borrowers from the Pullman pool.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 23, 2020 3:03 AM

When Penn Central almost immediately ran GG1s to New Haven and diverted Bay Ridge car-float and Maybrook fright traffic to Selkirk Yard, the New Haven's rectifier electrics, the EP-5s and EF-3-ex-Virignians saw freigiht service on ex-PRR electrified lines, until PC electric freight ended.  But these were not the first non-PRR electrics to operate under PRR wire.

What had the PRR purchased eaarler, their history both on the original railroad and on PRR?

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 23, 2020 12:16 PM

daveklepper
When Penn Central almost immediately ran GG1s to New Haven and diverted Bay Ridge car-float and Maybrook fright traffic to Selkirk Yard, the New Haven's rectifier electrics, the EP-5s and EF-3-ex-Virignians saw freigiht service on ex-PRR electrified lines, until PC electric freight ended.  But these were not the first non-PRR electrics to operate under PRR wire.

What had the PRR purchased earler, their history both on the original railroad and on PRR?

Presumably this is not the FF2s, converted from GN Cascade Tunnel Y-1s when that electrification was shut down (diesels worked the line effectively enough) to work as pushers for the "new" import high-quality ore service, ISTR to Fairless Hills, in the '50s.  (They were too big to go many other places on the PRR system* -- and with plain bearings, essentially not really fast enough, either.)

 I'm only sad that 5011, the ex-Y-1a with the interesting F-unit noses on it, was not put in service as well.  Almost a textbook example of 'cognitive dissonance' is provided by that familiar nose with that style of composite single-axle truck underneath...

Now, what else might have been earlier -- I remember something about two experimental locomotives from another system being tried, perhaps on the original section to Paoli, in 1915.  In fact I think these were in a previous question in one of the quiz threads here...

 *I am sure some wisenheimer will ask 'why not the W-1 electrics, too?'  Those were absolutely too big to run on PRR, although it would certainly have been fun to see twelve great axles of power in a single helper unit.  I'm not sure I can figure out what the class  might have been, but it's sort of like an isomer of the V1 underframe ... PRR appears not to have had 4-8-0s or a putative class for one.   

Considering how short a time the FF2s actually ran, it's even possible PRR, had they bought the W-1s 'cheap', would have sold one of the two on to UP by 1960, for use in their Re-animator style coal-turbine science project...

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Posted by GeoffS on Monday, March 23, 2020 1:49 PM

Just an aside, but electric freight hauling continued after PC into Conrail until circa 1981.

GS

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 23, 2020 2:11 PM

Geoff, if you're going to nitpick, the date is as late as 1984.  See the GE reconstruction of 4453 -- one of the great locomotives that shouldn't have been scrapped.

This being a separate issue from adoption of 'dual-mode-lite' in the ways that could have been adopted as a spur to new electrification as well as workarounds to issues with the old.  (How I wish they'd tried it, even with DC motors on SD40-2 equivalents!)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 24, 2020 8:30 AM

Correct, the ex-GNs were the ones.

And yes, electric freght did continue under Conrail until 1984, and the Virginian rectdifier electtics ended up Virginian, N&W, NYNH&H, PC, and Conrail, quite a record!

New Haven EP-3s were tested by PRR leading to the 4-6-6-4 GG! design.

Look forward to Overmod's question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 27, 2020 4:25 AM

Overmod, where are you?

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