Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 10:30 AM

The day trains 62 and 63 (well, afternoon) which carried "Buffet, Library, Observation, Parlor Car and Coaches" were shown in the 1928 public timetable as the "Duluth-Superior Limited".  By that time the night train had been dropped.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 3:18 PM

Miningman

Well I found this which is kind of spiffy. Geez, vacuum cleaned! Sure wish I could have rode a Soo Line train, any would be fine but a night train would be best.  Haven't found the names though!

 Maybe they were called 'Electric Lighted' and 'Vacuum Cleaned'. That's pretty unconventional!  ( just kidding, ok )

 

It's interesting to note that Soo Line consistently noted the "Vacuum Cleaned" aspect of their trains in their ads in the years before WWI.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 3:21 PM

rcdrye

The day trains 62 and 63 (well, afternoon) which carried "Buffet, Library, Observation, Parlor Car and Coaches" were shown in the 1928 public timetable as the "Duluth-Superior Limited".  By that time the night train had been dropped.

 
Also, by this time Soo was showing their Minneapolis-Duluth schedules combined with those of NP as well.
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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:53 AM

Miningman

The above schedule shows the trains with the labels given. The names I'm looking for existed from the trains inauguration only for a short time, maybe for a few weeks. Lets put it this way - the August 1912 Official Guide has the names, but the October issue does not. Also, the names were included in ads and articles (at least one of them for the latter.)

Clarification: The labels "Afternoon Train" and "Night Train" were being shown concurrently with the names I'm looking for.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, January 2, 2020 4:59 PM

Mike finds it!!! 'Daylight Delight' and 'Glide'

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 3, 2020 1:49 AM

P. S. Don't Forget the Soo.  ?? !!

Allrighty then.

They should and could have had an 'Afternoon Delight' in between to complete the not so subtle suggestive names. 

Perhaps that's why the names were dropped. The Brits were stuffy but the Americans had 'temperance'. Quebecers would have loved it but in French. 

Anyway, ponder on this a minute -- Over on the Trains Forum there are several mentions of NEW and seemingly successful OVERNIGHT trains in Europe and Asia. It seems to be a trend and regarded as something 'new', bold, exciting, responsible and common sensed. 

So then a thought...overnight trains, old style Pullman plush accommodations and Steam powered! Night trains, whistles, romance, crisp sheets, wool blankets, all that. 

Just say for a moment ( humour me fellas) that the Soo Line kept that one overnight train Duluth-Minneapolis, the original equipment meticulously maintained ( CPR Canadian equipment is still going because of CP's rigorous maintenance from the get go) and say 4 of their steam locomotives, perhaps light Pacifics or ten wheelers were kept just for this because .. just because. After all it's Duluth and that's the way it's done. 

You can't tell me that today, and for that matter all along, that would not be a phenomenal thing with the public at large and it would be sold out and booked months in adavance. Young couples, old couples, party people, business folks, newlyweds, everyone and their dog would want to Ride the Glide! Some Daytime and Afternoon Delight! From all over North America, Japan, China, Europe, everywhere. You betcha! 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 3, 2020 7:25 AM

Note the other services still advertised - it was a (rare) time of passenger optimism for the Soo.

The Spokane/Portland service (via CP, Spokane International and UP's OWR&N) lasted until the beginning of WW I.  I think the Boston through service (Soo, CP, B&M - handoff to B&M still in Quebec in those days) only lasted into 1913. For those following other forum topics, that one ran via the B&M's White Mountain Division.  The 1913 and later Boston-Montreal Red Wing service ran via White River Jct. Vt., combined with the New Englander cars headed for Montreal via the Central Vermont.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 3, 2020 7:45 AM

Miningman
So then a thought...overnight trains, old style Pullman plush accommodations and Steam powered! Night trains, whistles, romance, crisp sheets, wool blankets, all that ... Just say for a moment ( humour me fellas) that the Soo Line kept that one overnight train Duluth-Minneapolis, the original equipment meticulously maintained ( CPR Canadian equipment is still going because of CP's rigorous maintenance from the get go) and say 4 of their steam locomotives, perhaps light Pacifics or ten wheelers were kept just for this because .. just because. After all it's Duluth and that's the way it's done.

I'll go two better.  The train to 'preserve' isn't the Spartan budget train at all; it's the earlier 1907 Trains Deluxe, with much better long red cars and unforgettable service.  Better destination pairs, too...

And the way to provide it doesn't need to involve preservation (which sure wouldn't have happened between the Twin Cities and the Twin Ports!) ... only restoration.  There was a fellow in Australia a couple of decades ago who had the interesting idea of rebuilding the Titanic, waterline up nostalgic, waterline down modern.  He had the money to do it, and it was interesting to see all the potential resources and craftsmen who came out of the woodwork once the means were there.  The same is certainly true for modern construction: the corrugated-side stainless streamliner craze has gone the way of Formica counters or marble lollipops as necessary design language for passenger trains, and while Ed Ellis certainly hit snags operating 'luxury legacy service' we have some very marked successes on the Canadian side in providing the 'right stuff'.

So 1907-style shells, replicas of the 1914 observation cars, some sort of 'unisex' equivalent to alligator billfolds and orchid corsages, well-coordinated on-board cuisine ... proper childcare facilities ... all in easy-to-maintain surface finish over the best of modern craftsmanship in woods and metals for interiors.  In appropriate CEM shell construction with low-unsprung-mass trucks with three-axis active elements ... and perhaps working negative-cant-deficiency systems for nighttime comfort.  (I am tempted to invoke the Orient Express vibe for further train development, but we can take that up with our overseas compatriots...)

Of course you'll hear me say you'd run it with 5551 to 5554, complete with all the over-the-road support equipment and 'play nice with others' avoidance of blowdown and lubricant dribble over the road that most existing steam doesn't have.  Much of the feasibility plan, right from the beginning, was involved with proper DFM for large, regularly-runnable steam, with inherently low track damage.

Might as well provide separate-train Auto-Train service, too, with proper climate-controlled cars for the Chirons and Quattroportes, and nostalgic-for-a-different-era customers with Maybachs....

You can't tell me that today, and for that matter all along, that would not be a phenomenal thing with the public at large and it would be sold out and booked months in advance.  Young couples, old couples, party people, business folks, newlyweds, everyone and their dog would want to Ride the Glide!

The problem being, in part, that I just don't see the luxury traffic developing in the lane between those destination pairs, even if they get the lead out and build it to 110mph standards as promised.  You need REAL overnight or cruise-train service for that, especially if you're to get around Ed Ellis' problem and make it through any lean times with your standards as well as your pocketbook intact.  

... From all over North America, Japan, China, Europe, everywhere. You betcha! 

Perhaps the most important aspect of this project is intangible: we need the staff of the Fort Wayne museum channelling G.H.Daniels to reach all the right buttons on all the different forms of media -- and I think Kelly et al. are fully up to the challenge; just give them the right staff, the right inspiration to expand, and the right resources...

Yes, I think if it follows the exclusive-restaurant model you could easily book it full the appropriate number of months in advance to ensure your business model ... and then put teeth in a waiting-list/standby travel plan.

 

Of course, and much as I hate to say this, you'll need better names.  Very likely that if Soo had retained the train in question during the Sixties, it might have tried capitalizing on the moon-shot frenzy that gave us Apollos and such for train names, and called their train the 'Astro-Glide' (in keeping with its counterpart the 'Afternoon Delight', the midday 'Nooner' service, and other promising ways to ensure reproduction of a fine order.   Heck, we could implement a whole new order of onboard services, provided in relays by teams of trained professionals boarding and deboarding (discreetly, of course) at appropriate points during both night and day.  Call off your old tired ethics, boys!  There's more than Anderson's way to ensure net profitability!

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, January 3, 2020 8:02 AM

Miningman

Mike finds it!!! 'Daylight Delight' and 'Glide'

 

Mike, you got it.

Someone at Soo Line must have been sipping something when those names were thought up. Or, maybe the upstart was tweaking NP's nose in trying to get additional publicity for their trains. NP, with its three trains (Day Express, Night Express and Lake Superior Limited) were already established when Soo came along, and NP made sure the public remembered that through their ads that were placed near Soo Lines entry. As mentioned before, the Daylight Delight and Glide monikers were gone in a matter of weeks, leaving the Afternoon Train and Night Train labels to do the branding job for Soo's Duluth trains.

Mike, you have the next question.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 3, 2020 10:23 PM

Ok all good.

Mikes question to the great unwashed out there.

This train was named after a warship in a French novel. Wait, this train was named long after a warship in a French novel.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 5:31 PM

Hint:


The name the ship was tied into 20,000 Leagues under the Sea

 
 
 
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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 5:39 PM

The only "Nautilis" I can find was the Pullman-built Aquarium car used by the Shedd Aquarioum.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 6:15 PM

No no... the name of the train we are seeking is the same as the name of the ship in the French novel AND the name of a ship featured in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, obviously not the Nautilus. 

The movie is not the 'modern'  Disney one. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 7:10 PM

From the book I get the French ships Astrolabe, Bayonnaise, Boussole, Helvetia, Recherche and Scotia.  Except for CN's Scotian I haven't found any matching North American trains...

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 4, 2020 7:27 PM

Miningman

No no... the name of the train we are seeking is the same as the name of the ship in the French novel AND the name of a ship featured in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, obviously not the Nautilus. 

The movie is not the 'modern'  Disney one. 

 

In the book, the party looking for the ship sail from New York in the Abraham Lincoln, in 1866-- which is interesting for The Mysterious Island, which tells of Captain Nemo's death, and is also written by Jules Verne, begins in Richmond in 1864 or 1865 as the protagonists leave Richmond in a balloon basket, land on the Island that is over where the Nautilus is found, immobile. and the ballooners live there quite some time before an undersea volcano blows its top.  

Johnny

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 8:27 PM

I completely screwed up the hint.  Must have been the Morchella Esculenta soup.  My huge apologies to Mike.  Should never have mentioned the movie.. just the pics shown by Mike.

Well Johnny got it anyway and it looks as if he didn't require my silly wording.

https://archive.org/details/vingtmillelieue00vern/page/n8

 

Photo of the Day caption: Baltimore & Ohio No. 50, one of five box-cab passenger diesels built by Electro-Motive Corp. in 1935, handles the Abraham Lincoln of B&O subsidiary Alton Railroad at Bloomington, Ill., in 1939. Paul Stringham photo
B&O 50, The Mother of All Passenger Diesels
.
.....was named long after a warship in a French novel.  
 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 8:37 PM

Miningman
.....was named long after a warship in a French novel

Just not after a French ship in a French novel...

Maybe it would be safer to say that the ship and the train were named after the same person...

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:11 PM

Of course. I take full resposibilty for the mess and the wording.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, January 5, 2020 1:44 PM

From Mike:

 

Chapter from Around the World in 80 Days
 
 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:21 AM

In 1943, the Southern operated 5 trains that had something in common: Chattanooga-Tuscumbia, Alabama; Sheffield, Alabama,-Parrish, Alabama; Columbus, Mississippi-Mobile, Alabama; Atlanta-Brunswick, Georgia; and Brunswick-Jesup, Georgia. What did these trains have in common.What was different about the Brunswick-Jesup train? Three of the trains were named; what were the names?

Johnny

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:42 AM

This wouldn't have anything to do with my beloved Cracker, Goldenrod, Joe Wheeler and Vulcan, would it?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:59 AM

These are the trains that Southern operated with Fairbanks-Morse power cars, with 800 HP OP engines and 2-A1A (later 3-A1A) trucks.   I haven't quit sorted out the names, because 4 of the cars were named, but only three trains.  The cars were named "Cracker", "Goldenrod", "Vulcan" and "Joe Wheeler", of which I think the last three were also train names.The Brunswick-Jesup train carried a Pullman for Brunswick, connecting to a Florida train (the Skyland Special?)

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 1:37 PM

rcdrye

These are the trains that Southern operated with Fairbanks-Morse power cars, with 800 HP OP engines and 2-A1A (later 3-A1A) trucks.   I haven't quit sorted out the names, because 4 of the cars were named, but only three trains.  The cars were named "Cracker", "Goldenrod", "Vulcan" and "Joe Wheeler", of which I think the last three were also train names.The Brunswick-Jesup train carried a Pullman for Brunswick, connecting to a Florida train (the Skyland Special?)

 

Pretty good!--except for two errors; In 1943, the "Cracker" (think "Georgia") ran Atlanta-Brunswick; it did make it possible to connect with the Skyland Special in Jesup, but passengers had to change whether they rode coach or Pullman--what other train connected with it and carried a through Pullman for Brusnwick?

I saw the "Vulcan" in Birmingham once in the fifties after it had arrived from Mobile one afternoon, and was a little puzzled by its name (I did not then know all of the names); by then the Goldenrod ran only between Birmingham and Mobile.

Just think--three Southern trains in the ACL station in Jesup at one time! One in from Brunswick, one in from Jacksonville that dropped cars for Charlotte and Asheville, and  picked up a car that came from Brunswick and left for.... 

And the reverse process early in the morning!

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 6, 2020 4:19 PM

The Jesup-Brunswick "Motor Train" connected with the Kansas City-Florida Special.

Since the KC-F Special no longer carried the Brunswick sleeper in 1948, I'd have to speculate where the car originated.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 8:51 PM

Please, the Atlanta-Brunswick line was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in the U.S,A.--and David P. Morgan and his wife rode it in, I believe, 1965. Southern's 10/31/1965 passenger TT shows the Birmingham-Brunswick train with the Atlanta-Brunswick Pullman. 

I did not dig in my Southern collection to determine just when the KC-Birmingham train was cut off.

There was a short time (I do not remember just when) the KC-Florida Special and Royal Palm swapped roads between Macon and Jacksonville.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 11, 2020 10:23 AM

Went back and checked the 1948 Guide again.  The 10-2-1 Atlanta-Brunswick Pullman is listed under "other sleeping car routes", but the Jesup-Brunswick "Motor Train" is listed as coach-only, even though its times match the sleeper's. 

This Chicago-West coast train got lightweight Pullmans in 1942.  About half of the Pullman cars were delivered with numbers instead of names.  The numbered cars were soon given names and the numbers were removed.  After the war when other lightweight equipment arrived, the now-named cars (plus seven named postwar cars) were given new numbers, and the names were removed.   Name the train and the railroads involved.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, January 11, 2020 2:17 PM

Deggesty

There was a short time (I do not remember just when) the KC-Florida Special and Royal Palm swapped roads between Macon and Jacksonville.

 
There were several time periods where the Macon-Jacksonville schedules of the Kansas City-Florida Special and Royal Palm were modified in relation to each other:
 
Normally, the KC-Florida Special operated via Jesup and the Royal Palm operated via Valdosta.
 
- From mid-1933 to mid-1936, both trains had their routing switched, the KC-Florida Special running via Valdosta and Royal Palm via Jesup.
 
- In the winter seasons of 1940, 41 and 42, both the Special and the Palm had their south-of-Macon routing modified: the Special operated southbound via Valdosta and northbound via Jesup, and the Palm operated southbound via Jesup and northbound via Valdosta. By spring of each year, both trains would return to their normal routing.
 
- From April of 1947 through January of 1948, the Special and the Palm were combined between Atlanta and Jacksonville via Valdosta. The through cars of the Jacksonville-Asheville Skyland Special were normally handled on whichever train that operated via Jesup, but during this time the Skyland Special was operated as an indepedent train to/from Jacksonville, something that was not done since 1931.
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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 11, 2020 4:58 PM

I believe that the two trains were consolidated between Macon and Jacksonville because of the coal miners' strike. Some trains were temporarily abolished at that time as I recall.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 12, 2020 1:17 AM

The Brunzwick - Jesup train carrying the sleeper off the KC-Jax train was listed as coach-only because the sleeper was restricted to through passengers.

I think the lightweights in the question were SP and on the C&NW, UP, and SP  City of SF.

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