Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:09 AM

This railroad, known for innovative steam design, purchased two sets of passenger diesels, each set from a different manufacturer, shortly before WW II. The two pairs were used on the heaviest and fastest trains on the railroad. Not joined by other diesels (other than switchers) until after the war, they effectively replaced two steam locomotives each.  Name the railroad, at least one of the trains handled, and make/model.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 6:32 AM

A lot of the equipment pulled by the two diesel sets was built in the company's own shops.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, June 20, 2019 9:16 AM

My answer: Baltimore and Ohio Railroad 

B&O #50 manufactured by EMC in 1935, hauled the Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue.

B&O EA #51 manufactured by GM in 1937, hauled the Capitol Limited, National Limited.

I hope I'm right... Coffee

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:12 AM

Jones1945

My answer: Baltimore and Ohio Railroad 

B&O #50 manufactured by EMC in 1935, hauled the Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue.

B&O EA #51 manufactured by GM in 1937, hauled the Capitol Limited, National Limited.

I hope I'm right... Coffee

 

Those were joined by the EA-EB sets 51-56 in 1937.

Both sets I'm looking for were delivered in 1941, one set each by two different manufacturers.  The two sets were the only passenger diesels owned by the railroad before 1946, though it did have seven four-unit FT sets delivered in 1943.

Thanks to WPB restrictions on passenger diesel locomotives, the railroad had to settle for 10 4-8-4s in 1943 instead. One of those survives today.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:14 AM

The railroad was MILW, one of the trains was the "Fast Mail", and the diesels were EMD E6A's and Alco DL109's.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 1:04 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The railroad was MILW, one of the trains was the "Fast Mail", and the diesels were EMD E6A's and Alco DL109's.

 

You got it.  E6 15A/B and DL109 14A/B arrived in 1941 and immediately assumed duties making one Chicago-Minneapolis round trip daily, covering the Fast Mail and the Morning Hiawatha.  The E6 pair was considered the faster and more reliable of the two, and was known for making up time on the 85-miles-in-75-minutes Milwaukee-Chicago leg, with recorded speeds of 112 MPH.  The Fast mail was one of the heaviest of MILW's trains, often running more than 20 cars, occasionally as many as thirty.  The Fast Mail's schedule was as demanding as the Hiawathas', requiring fast running between mail handling stops.  Both sets were bumped to secondary trains after the E7s and later FP7s arrived.  West Milwaukee shops put a new cab on 14A in the early 1950s that looked like a cross between an EMD and a Baldwin.

Each pair effectively freed up a Baldwin-built F7 4-6-4 by covering two trips in a day.

Baldwin-built 4-8-4s 260-267 arrived in 1943.  261 is active as an excursion engine.

14A/B remained in service until the late 1950s, though not officially retired until 1961.

15A/B were traded in on E9s in 1962.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, June 21, 2019 12:16 AM

Nice to know the history of MILW's early diesel and the Fast Mail train! 

CSSHEGEWISCH, it's your turn. :  )

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, June 21, 2019 10:11 AM

Most of us are aware of the operation of the bottle train in the Calumet region of Northwest Indiana and Illinois.  What were the original endpoints of this train and its original route.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, July 24, 2019 2:42 PM

Bumping this up since there hasn't been any posts for over a month. Are there clues which can be given?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, July 25, 2019 10:28 AM

The original endpoints were both Interlake Steel facilities and the routing was over a single railroad.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 25, 2019 11:01 AM

.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 25, 2019 11:04 AM

.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 25, 2019 11:11 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
The original endpoints were both Interlake Steel facilities and the routing was over a single railroad.

Well that rules out fairly conclusively what I thought it was: from LTV (now Arcelor Mittal) in East Chicago to the old Acme mill in Riverside (closed 2001, reopened 'under new management' in 2003).  Probably south on the ex-South Chicago & Southern 'Bernice Cutoff' line (ex-PRR?) then west on IHB at Burnham; Riverside being close to Dolton Junction.

(At least some of the Acme facilities may have been ex-Interlake Steel, but I haven't found good sources that show which was which.  You didn't mean InterSTATE, by any chance?)

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 25, 2019 7:05 PM

I know the move was on the EJ&E (at first) but I can't find the names of the plants, though I think one fo the ends was Burns Harbor.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, July 26, 2019 10:30 AM

IHB was not involved in the original routing.  Acme, later known as Interlake Steel, had the most disjointed steel mill in the Chicago area.  Coke ovens were located at 112th and Torrence, blast furnaces were across the Calumet River at 108th and Burley, and the finishing mill (still in operation) is in Riverdale (not Riverside).

Interstate Steel is a steel service center (warehouse) operator only.  One of my rugby teammates was a sales rep for that firm.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, July 26, 2019 11:37 AM

rcdrye
I think one of the ends was Burns Harbor.

That would be this guy.  Currently with this name, owned by ArcelorMittal, useta be Beth Steel.

Meanwhile, the facility in East Chicago appears to have been called InLAND Steel at some point, Indiana Harbor ... I don't know whether East or West; this may have something to do with the disjoint operations.

I have no idea where that 'Riverside' came from...  of course it's Riverdale.  A little history from the Web:

The Acme Steel Furnace Plant on the east side of the river at 108th Street was part of a company with multiple roots. The original steel making plant on the site was Federal Furnace which opened in 1908. It merged with By Products Coke Corporation which in 1905 had opened a coke plant at 112th and Torrence Avenue. The merger was named Interlake Steel.  Eventually a conveyor was built across the Calumet River linking these two operations. Acme Steel which began operation in this area in Riverdale in 1917 later merged with these companies and was known as Interlake Steel.  In 1984 Acme Steel spun off from Interlake and remained in operation until late 2001 when it went out of business after being in bankruptcy for a number of years. ISG bought the Riverdale plant of former Acme but not the 89 acre furnace plant or the 102 acre coke plant.  The site still has some of the few remaining examples of the type of equipment used to make steel in this area. It had the last remaining blast furnace in the Chicago area until it was torn down in July of 2004.

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Posted by BLS53 on Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:53 PM

rcdrye

 

 
daveklepper

And CSX also uses it?

 

 

 

CSX no longer operates in the area.  The ex-NC&StL line was abandoned some time after the NC&StL/L&N merger.

 

Your question, Johnny!

 

NC&StL never used the bridge. At the time, they had plans to extend their trackage to St. Louis, but that never happened.

L&N took over the NC&StL in 1957. They ran a daily local from Bruceton TN to Paducah until 1981. The tracks were removed from Murray KY northward, a few years later. 

The Paducah & Illinois, was on paper only. Strictly concerned with the Metropolis bridge ownership rights and responsibilies of the railroads who used it. The P&I never owned any locomotives or rolling stock.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 26, 2019 1:07 AM

Who currently has this?  I didn't have the right answer.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 26, 2019 9:37 AM

I think Johnny (Deggesty) has it.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, August 26, 2019 10:22 AM

Not sure where BLS53 came from with his posting.  I still don't have an answer on my bottle train query, although rcrdye is getting close.  The bottle train was originally from Interlake's blast furnace in East Side to the finishing mill in Riverdale.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, August 26, 2019 11:06 AM

rcdrye

I think Johnny (Deggesty) has it.

 

I answered the P&I question several months ago, and my question (overnight service between Columbia and Atlanta) was taken care of. Right now, I am out of it. I believe that all is in order now.

Johnny

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, September 23, 2019 12:02 PM

ALL:

I am going to jump into this forum with a new question:

This train (the name still used by AMTRAK) had four new heavy weights built for the train in 1929. In 1932, these four names were used on rebuilt sleepers.

Hint: All four had the prefix "William" in their name.

Name the railroad those four operated on and the name of the train.

What did all four "Williams'" have in common.

Happy researching!

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 23, 2019 3:01 PM

just guessing:   B&O Capitol Limited, four authors

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 23, 2019 4:17 PM

Speaking of B&O Capitol Limited, here is a comparison of the consist to its primary rival, PRR's Liberty Limited in 1938:

The Capitol Limited (11 cars):

 (wiki)

  • Baggage-dormitory
  • 8-section 1-drawing room 1-compartment sleeping car
  • One dining car,
  • Three to four 8-section 5-double bedroom sleeping cars
  • 14-section sleeping car
  • Two 12-section 1-drawing room sleeping cars
  • Sleeper-buffet-lounge with a drawing room and three compartments. 

 

PRR's Liberty Limited (7 cars):

 (wiki)

  • One lounge Car (Drawing-room, three Double Bedrooms, Buffet),
  • 14 sections heavyweight Pullman sleeper,
  • 12-5 lightweight Pullman sleeper
  • 10-5 lightweight Pullman sleeper
  • One dining car,
  • One coach with reclining seat which was regularly assigned,
  • Observation car with two master bedrooms, one double bedroom, and a buffet lounge.[4] 
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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, September 23, 2019 4:37 PM

Dave and Jones1945:

Nope--I forgot that the Capitol Limited was on Amtrak--we rode it from Chicago to PGH about two years and had to wait for three or so hours for a train to Harrisburg.

Keep on digging.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, September 23, 2019 7:49 PM

In 1929, Pullman built four 8 section, 1 drawing room, and 2 compartment cars for the Southern Railway Crescent Limited. During the Depression, the train ran without a name,, but simply as #37 and $38. After the Depression, it was renamed Crescent, and Amtrak operates a train with the same name--but it runs on NS all the way between Washington and New Orleans, and not through Montgomery.

The cars wer named William Davidson, William Lewis Sharkey, William Rufus King, and William Wyatt Bibb, all of whom were politcal men in the South (US Representative, Senator, and Vice-President, and state governor--not necessarily in that order. In 1932, they were renamed, in order, George Wythe ("With"), Robert P. Hoke, Stonewall Jackson, and P.G.T. Beauregarde--all men of note in the South..  

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 6:46 AM

The former Willam Rufus King/Stonewall Jackson ended up on NdeM as Cacahuamilpa (1950)

The four 1932 cars are listed in Pullman records as rebuilds from cars formerly assigned to PRR. 

Ravensworth (1911) -> William Davidson

Binstead (1911) -> William Lewis Sharkey

Beach Haven (1910) -> William Rufus King

Bucyrus (1917) -> William Wyatt Bibb

 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 9:25 AM

Johnny has it!!

One book I have shows a broadside of the "William Wyatt Bibb".

Next question to you.

Ed Burns

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 9:30 AM

Rob:

Thank you for adding information to the above post.

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:10 PM

1932 cars eventual disposition:

William Davison -> Bluefield (1950) sold to AEC 1650 (1961)

William Lewis Sharkey -> Vicker (1940) to AEC 1652 (1961).  There were three William Lewis Sharkeys, the first built new in 1925.

William Rufus King -> Pembroke (1940).  Another William Rufus King was rebuilt in 1940 from Naughton (1916)

All of this info from The Pullman Project's database.

 

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