Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 8:10 AM

daveklepper
the Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal.

Pullmans via Utica, over what is now the Adirondack Scenic when it went 'all the way'?

Surely there were Pullmans via the CASO to Toronto?  Or the other way via Detroit?

I was personally hoping for something more esoteric, involving one of the Western railroads, that would provide actual Pullman service, not just coach trains (for example, did Pullmans ever run on the SD&AE?)  Or perhaps some incarnation of the Gould lines at the height of their pre-'92 grandeur -- or a later arrangement involving the MP/C&EI that would actually connect to something Canadian as it would post '74.

It was my understanding that the Penn-Texas sleepers were actually handled via the MoPac south and west of St. Louis, as were the connections from the Southwestern arriving via their different route via Cleveland.  There would be the obvious 'gaps' between Utica and Buffalo west to Cleveland (where the lines diverged) on the NYC; the Montrealer would likely exchange any sleeper from Canada with the Penn-Texas consist out of Penn Station, but could also, very thoretically, have done this via the Washington, DC section.

By 1960 the actual 'Mexico City' sleeper apparently ran only as far as San Antonio, where you would have to change to the one going via the Penn-Texas route.  If I remember correctly there was at least one PRR-lettered sleeping car in full MoPac Eagle colors ... there has to be a photo collection somewhere of the various 'Pennsylvania' cars in other liveries, UP being a famous one.

I remember the ad for the Southwestern Limited sleepers to Mexico City and still marvel a bit that it was possible.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:48 AM

What you haven't identified is how much of each railroad fit the bill for carrying Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico.  More of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.

The interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, whose core was the Newton and Northwestern, an Iowa coal road between nowhere and nowhere - actually Newton and Rockwell City.  The FDDM&S used the N&NW main line from just south of Boone north to Hope, later upgrading it with the spectacular bridges the Ft. Dodge line was known for.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:46 PM

rcdrye
More of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.

Where else, aside from the Adirondack line when it went through, did NYC operate sleepers to Montreal?  I would need access to an OG to confirm whether sleepers operated west from Toronto for interchange 'down' to St. Louis; it's far more obvious they would go east and down to Buffalo, although again I don't know whether they would be switched directly into the Southwestern's consist there as I don't remember where the cutoff to the Big Four is relative to other logical transfer points in Cleveland.  Likewise any sleeper coming south to Utica might ride a different train west before being incorporated into any St. Louis train.

Far as I can tell, the only necessary "gap" necessary with the PRR service is that a through Pullman from Canada would have to be switched out of the Montrealer consist and put into the relevant part of the Penn-Texas New York section, and if that had to be done at Sunnyside I don't think 'through passengers' would be allowed to stay on the car during that time.  That might be an argument for doing the 'swap' in Washington (or some other place depending on how the Washington section of the Penn-Texas was actually routed)

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:52 PM

rcdrye
The interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:57 PM

NYC also operated Pullmans to Toronto and other Canadian points via Buffalo, so the entire "Water Level Route" from New York to Buffalo handled pullmans for both Canada and Mexico.  PRR handled a Washington-Mexico City car in addition to the New York-Mexico City cars, so only the sections New York-North Philadelphia and Baltimore-Washington actually qualified.

I thought the gap made it a bit more intersting.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 1:50 AM

I took the second question literally for a minimum answer.  I was not certain when the NYC-exclusive GCT-Montreal Pullman, via Messina instead of over the D&H, was dropped, and it may have been before the late 40s.  You can check on this.

The Central did indeed have have the Wolverine, with NY - Chicago Pullmans via Canada and Detroit, crossing the boarder twice each way.  And Chhicago - Toronto through on the CP east of Windsor.  At one time, perhaps even in the late 40s, on car ran through to Montreal.  I rode, at one time or another, all these crossings, although one or two may have been after the Central took over its own sleeper operations, and they were not strictly Pullmans anymore.

A very esoteric question:  The New York City area, during WWII and for two years after, had three one-car streetcar lines operating entirely or mostly on single track, with all track in the street.   Two were in New York City and one north of the city.  Name one and you win.   Only one car handled all runs on each of these lines.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 9:49 AM

Nepperhan!

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:08 PM

Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx. Nepperhan had some open track.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:15 AM

Sedgewick, indeed, is the one I wanted.  Neperhan, "5," was a fairly long line, had about six or seven cars during rush hours, three or four off-peak, and one only during wee morning hours.  But a major portion was side-of-road "open track," single with passing sidings.

Elm and Walnut, "9," was Yonkers' one-car single-track line.

Brooklyn's was the Holly Cross Cemetary Shuttle, off Nostrand Avenue.

Await your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 02, 2019 6:46 AM

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 05, 2019 9:56 AM

I should have noted that both Sedgewick and Elm and Walnut had routes that overlapped some double-track distance shared with a line or more that had more frquent service, and that only the Holy Cross Cemetary shuttle operated only on its own exclusive single track.   Sedgewick with Tremont on Burnside Avenue to either Jerome Avenue or 3rd Avenue, someone can check where e crossover was, and "9" on Main Street between Getty's Square and the "Foot of Main Street" at the car house and the Central's Yonkers Station.

Te Holy Cross Cemetary Shuttle kept running until Nostrand was converted to bus in 1948.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 06, 2019 6:12 AM

rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 2:46 PM

rcdrye
rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

 

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

 

 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, May 06, 2019 5:18 PM

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:16 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

At the Lake Shore Railway in NorthEast, Pa 

https://lakeshorerailway.com/rolling-stock-of-lsrhs/

Pullman “Central Park”

Built in 1925; last known Pullman-NYC observation/lounge/sleeper to exist in its original configuration. Ran on the NYC and the 20th Century Limited. Unique, heavyweight Pullman, related to locale. Configuration: 3-compartment, 2-drawing room, lounge/observation. (Women’s restroom turned into a kitchen, pre-LSRHS.) Observation lounge partially restored in 2006 and opened for public viewing and education on car restoration.

Last one. 

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:32 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

Central Plains

http://www.freedomtrain.org/freedom-train-consist-8-pullman-observation-car-central-plains.htm

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 6:46 AM

Looks like this may work out. 

Ed got the "Cent" cars, 82 of which were built in three lots, all initially assigned to the New York Central.  Air conditioned in the early 1930s, they ended up all over the map, but most of them were still active in 1950.  Eventual owners after the Pullman breakup were as far apart as Central of Georgia and Soo Line.  One even ended up owned by Canadian Pacific.  The Soo/CP Winnipeger had them or similar cars until the train was discontinued in 1965.

Nariq01 got the Central series observations which were all originally assigned to NYC where they covered multiple sections of the Century and other top-of-the-line trains.  Sidelined by the 1938 Century's streamlining, 13 of them were sold to the PRR(!) in 1942, where they were used as parlor cars, 7 went to the US Government as Hospital cars in 1943, the remaining 4 staying in the Pullman Pool until sold by Pullman in the mid 1950s.  One car (Central Bridge) was destroyed after a 1942 wreck.  The four pool cars still had Ice air conditioning in 1950, indicating infrequent use.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 01, 2019 1:00 PM

Either Nariq01 of NP Eddie is up! 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, June 02, 2019 10:57 AM

Two lightweight Pullmans were quickly re-named after their original names were too similar with two existing Pullmans. Dig into "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" for the answer. Good hunting!

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, June 07, 2019 7:01 AM

Milwaukee renamed 8dupRmt6Rmt4DBR Pullmans Mississippi River and Missouri River to Chippewa River and Vermillion River.  The originally intended car names had been grabbed by GN for 2dbr1Cpt Lounge observations used on the Empire Builder.  Pullman records compiled by the Pullman Project do not list the MILW cars under the original names.  The GN cars were renamed Choteau Coulee and Twelve Mile Coulee in 1955 when rebuilt for Western Star service.

The Milwaukee's cars were assigned to the Pioneer limited.

Since Pullman identified cars primarily by name, duplicate names were a big no-no. Nickel Plate's 1950 order of 10Rmt6DBR and 6DBRLounges had several cars with "City of" names that duplicated car names in C&O's huge 1950 order.  Pullman designated the cars "primarily by number" using NKPs 100 and 200 series numbers.  NP and SP Pullmans were designated only by number, except for SP cars in "Golden State" assignment.  Eight of the NKP cars lost their numbers and got new names after they were sold to IC in 1965 (by N&W).

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, June 07, 2019 11:45 AM

Rob:

Good answers, but not the four names I am looking for, Keep digging.

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, June 10, 2019 7:34 AM

One of the pairs involved L&N's 1953-built 6Sec6Rmt4DBR car "Southern Pine", renamed "Dixie Pine" in 1955 since ACL had 1954-built 4sec4Rmt5DBR1Cpt car "Southern Pines".  Probably especially confusing since both cars ran in Florida service.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 10, 2019 8:05 AM

rcdrye

One of the pairs involved L&N's 1953-built 6Sec6Rmt4DBR car "Southern Pine", renamed "Dixie Pine" in 1955 since ACL had 1954-built 4sec4Rmt5DBR1Cpt car "Southern Pines".  Probably especially confusing since both cars ran in Florida service.

 

Please, rcd--Southern Pines was a Seaboard car. Two things--the SAL served Southern Pines, and the ACL did not have any lightweight cars with sections. I checked my immediate reaction with the listings in Car Names Numbers and Consists.

Johnny

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, June 10, 2019 9:05 AM

Rob:

You have one car correct--keeping digging for the 2nd one.

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:18 PM

ACL 1946 Budd-built diner St. Petersburg was renamed Orlando so a 1948-built dining room car from the C&O (part of a twin-unit built for the Chessie) could be named St. Petersburg. Though both cars lasted into the SCL era, neither was part of Amtrak's initial purchase.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, June 12, 2019 2:25 PM

ALL:

If no one answers the second car by Friday, I will give the answer.

Ed Burns

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, June 14, 2019 9:51 AM

Good morning all and happy Friday!

The second re-named Pullman is as follows:

My reference is "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists". Page 26 lists a number of "Imperial" prefixed cars for assignment to the NYC. Two are the Imperial State and the Imperial Estate. In February of 1950, the Imperial Estate was re-named Imperial Manor (page 35).

Next question is easier: The Northern Pacific purchased one and only one second hand switch engine. What road did the NP purchase said locomotive from and what was its NP number. I would see that locomotive at Northtown.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, June 14, 2019 11:53 AM

The only thing this is really likely to be is Shop 12, from the HHS&S.

If that is so, an amusing follow-on question for the likes of some of the experts here would be what "HHS&S" stands for.  I won't ask it only because a Google search eventually produces the reference ... waaaay down in an unsearchable non-OCR online typescript about a relatively unrelated subject (a thesis on Helena, Montana street railways).  But it would be fun to see if any of you know what it is without looking...

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