Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, April 08, 2019 1:27 AM

The Reisszug (also spelt Reißzug or Reiszug)

narig01

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

Can anyone name this?

Thank you for the question.

My guess is The Reisszug (Reißzug or Reiszug) in Austria.

"...a private cable railway providing goods access to the Hohensalzburg Castle at Salzburg in Austria. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reisszug

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 08, 2019 2:28 AM

More on this (apologies in advance for the awful HTML!):

http://www.funimag.com/funimag10/RESZUG02.HTM

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, April 08, 2019 3:39 PM

Jones1945

The Reisszug (also spelt Reißzug or Reiszug)

 
narig01

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

Can anyone name this?

 

Thank you for the question.

My guess is The Reisszug (Reißzug or Reiszug) in Austria.

"...a private cable railway providing goods access to the Hohensalzburg Castle at Salzburg in Austria. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reisszug

 

 

Jones 1945 you were first in.  

The Reusszug is kind of the backdoor funicular into Hohensalzburg Castle. It looks like it is used for delivery of supplies and materials for the upkeep of the castle.  The castle is more of a Berg or Fortress then a palace. From the description it rarely is used for people.  Hohensalzburg is built on top of a rock and the approaches are quite step. Both entrances are now Funiculars. 

Anyway Jones1945 we await your question.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 1:49 PM

Thank you very much!

I am feeling extremely unwell (again) but I think I can post my question by tomorrow since I still need to do some fact check first. Thank you for your consideration. (I can't reply to other posts as well, I am really not feeling alright...)

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:43 AM

Ok, I am back... 

The named train was inaugurated just one month before The Great Depression started.

It was supposed to be the second flagship passenger train of the railroad who run it.

It served on Northeast of the United State.

This named train discontinued before 1933 but its name remained on the time table for a few months. The cars of it were attached to another two named train before its name and its number was was removed from the time table for the first time. 

It was restored a few years after the first time it was canceled, but its car still attached to another named train which run a much shorter distance than the 1929 version of it. 

The route of this train changed several times but was still serving on the same corridor from the mid-1930s to late-1940s. The destination of it in both directions restored to its original version of 1929 in the mid-1930s.

It was run with at least two sections in the mid-1940s. (of course!)

This named train exchanged its number with its section which became anther named train about one year before it was removed from time table forever in the late-1947.

*The train shared its name with another famous train from the United Kingdom and France.

Please tell us the name of this train, its destination in both directions the date before it was canceled permanently and the railroad who run it. YesCoffee

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:43 AM

Knowing how you love the S1... it's pretty clear what this is.  There's a famous picture of the Big Engine with this train's sign on the front.

You might have tied it in with the smoke-deflector discussions, as I recall this being one of the trains that was used for the PRR testing (with three K4s; can you give their numbers?) from 1939 to 1941 -- another question in itself, as apparently some of the test film has survived and would be highly interesting to see.

I have Chris Baer's synopsis of the train history if someone wants it.  He says it was the 'second train' right up until the General was inaugurated in 1937.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:31 AM

The "2nd train" on the Pennsy, the 1st being the Pennyslvania Limited and then The Broadway, the Spirit of Saint Louis, St. Louis - New York.  When it ran in two sections, it also served Washington, DC, via the Baltimore Northern route, and it may have seved DC at other times, split at Harrisburg.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:46 AM

Mr. Klepper -- while the Parisians loved 'Lucky Lindy' and his mount, that did not extend to naming a French express after him.

The answer is more simple than you think.  Your mind should fly straight to it, in fact.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:46 AM

I see the IT mavens are 'working' on this site this morning -- response times sometimes in the minutes, double-posting, weird parsing of code.

Must be getting ready for another special promotion with fancy dancing HTML.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:46 AM

Jones1945

Ok, I am back... 

The named train was inaugurated just one month before The Great Depression started.

It was supposed to be the second flagship passenger train of the railroad who run it.

It served on Northeast of the United State.

This named train discontinued before 1933 but its name remained on the time table for a few months. The cars of it were attached to another two named train before its name and its number was was removed from the time table for the first time. 

It was restored a few years after the first time it was canceled, but its car still attached to another named train which run a much shorter distance than the 1929 version of it. 

The route of this train changed several times but was still serving on the same corridor from the mid-1930s to late-1940s. The destination of it in both directions restored to its original version of 1929 in the mid-1930s.

It was run with at least two sections in the mid-1940s. (of course!)

This named train exchanged its number with its section which became anther named train about one year before it was removed from time table forever in the late-1947.

*The train shared its name with another famous train from the United Kingdom and France.

Please tell us the name of this train, its destination in both directions the date before it was canceled permanently and the railroad who run it. YesCoffee

 

That would be PRR's Golden Arrow, running between Chicago and New York (and other routes) from 1929 until it was permanently discontinued in 1947.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:16 PM

 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:46 AM

I see the IT mavens are 'working' on this site this morning -- response times sometimes in the minutes, double-posting, weird parsing of code.

 

Yeah it's like someone poured a bottle of glue in the works.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, April 11, 2019 2:07 PM

ZephyrOverland

That would be PRR's Golden Arrow, running between Chicago and New York (and other routes) from 1929 until it was permanently discontinued in 1947.

Haha... I knew Overmod knows the answer and I really like the way he responded to this question! Yes Thank you everyone for your participation!Shy

The Golden Arrow is probably one of the most forgotten named trains of Pennsy! 

ZephyrOverland, it's your turn!

 

Overmod

Knowing how you love the S1... it's pretty clear what this is.  There's a famous picture of the Big Engine with this train's sign on the front.

You might have tied it in with the smoke-deflector discussions, as I recall this being one of the trains that was used for the PRR testing (with three K4s; can you give their numbers?) from 1939 to 1941 -- another question in itself, as apparently some of the test film has survived and would be highly interesting to see.

I have Chris Baer's synopsis of the train history if someone wants it.  He says it was the 'second train' right up until the General was inaugurated in 1937.

Definitely Overmod, not only S1 led the train quite often before the train was removed from the time table, there are some photos showing S2 towing the Golden Arrow as well. But when I try to search for detail about this named train, it is not mentioned on many websites or in the book like 'Pennsy Streamliners' by Joe Welish.

IIRC, there are photos showing PRR #3768, #5038 and #3876(both had smoke deflector equipped) towed the Golden Arrow, not sure about the 3rd K4s with smoke deflector equipped; do you mean #1188? CoffeeSmile

The 12-car Golden Arrow led by PRR S1

Tags: Golden Arrow

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:31 PM

Latching on to the Golden Arrow, it may be one of PRR's not-as-well-known passenger train names, but at the time of its inaugural on September 29, 1929, its mission was a lofty one, reflecting a change in strategy for PRR on its New York-Chicago service. 

Until that time, the 20-hour Broadway Limited (as well as NYC's 20th Century Limited) were the fastest NY-CHI trains offered and at the time were most popular. NYC even stated that from September 1928 to September 1929, it operated a total of 2153 20th Century trains carrying 240,000 passengers.  This would average out to about 3 sections per day, each way.

The establishment of the Golden Arrow was part of a new PRR initiative of an expanded 20-hour New York-Chicago lineup. From Chicago, PRR offered the Fast Mail, Broadway Limited and Golden Arrow. On the same day, NYC countered with its own 20-hour Fast Mail (on the exact same schedule as PRR's version), a new Advance 20th Century Limited, 20th Century Limited and they even threw in the Wolverine, running on the Michigan Central. 

 

As for the question:

Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?  

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 14, 2019 3:19 PM

ZephyrOverland
Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?

The Advance 20th Century Limited, which operated an hour ahead of the Century's time, was NYC's entry.  A little better performer financially than the Golden Arrow, it survived for a year or two after the Commodore Vanderbilt entered the fray in 1933. Extra fare, just like the Century.  Beebe notes the main difference was that almost everyone on the Advanced 20th Century ate lunch on departure from both New York and Chicago, not quite as desirable with the Century's 2:45PM departure westbound.  The Advanced allowed NYC to reduce the number of sections operated for the Century, something PRR didn't have to worry about as much with the Broadway.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 14, 2019 5:05 PM

Doesn't he know he's edited his own post to contain the answers?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:16 PM

Overmod
Doesn't he know he's edited his own post to contain the answers?

 
 

We're still glad he's back...

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:46 PM

rcdrye

 

 
ZephyrOverland
Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?

 

The Advance 20th Century Limited, which operated an hour ahead of the Century's time, was NYC's entry.  A little better performer financially than the Golden Arrow, it survived for a year or two after the Commodore Vanderbilt entered the fray in 1933. Extra fare, just like the Century.  Beebe notes the main difference was that almost everyone on the Advanced 20th Century ate lunch on departure from both New York and Chicago, not quite as desirable with the Century's 2:45PM departure westbound.  The Advanced allowed NYC to reduce the number of sections operated for the Century, something PRR didn't have to worry about as much with the Broadway.

 

It was not the Advance 20th Century Limited that matched the schedule of PRR's Golden Arrow.

BUT

Your response did contain the answer. It was the Commodore Vanderbilt. This train was inaugruated on the same day as the Advance 20th Century Limited and was touted as the first train to be named after an individual. If NYC's publicity machine did their due dillegence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.

But I digress...

Both the Golden Arrow and Commodore Vanderbilt left Chicago at 2:00 pm and arrived in New York at 11:00 am. Westbound, both left New York at 4:00 pm, arriving in Chicago at 11:00 am. Its interesting to note that the Century and Broadway were scheduled apart from each other: eastbound, the Advance 20th Century matched the schedule times of the Broadway while the latter westbound train had no NYC schedule counterpart - the Century left New York at 2:45 pm while the Broadway left at 3:00 pm.

With this new multiple 20-hour schedule approach, PRR fielded three trains each way (e.b. - Fast Mail, Broadway, Golden Arrow; w.b. - Pennsylvania Limited, Broadway, Golden Arrow), while NYC scheduled 5 trains eastbound (Fast Mail, Advance 20th Century, 20th Century, Commodore, Wolverine)  and 4 trains westbound (Advance 20th Century, 20th Century, Commodore, Wolverine.) You are right, in that a possible motive for this approach was to reduce the number of multiple sections of the Century and Broadway, but ironically the day the first westbound Commodore left Grand Central, the Century operated in three sections.

Of course, with the stock market crash occuring a month later, and the regressing economy following, this setup did not remain for long. By April of 1930 PRR's Fast Mail became the New Yorker on a slower schedule, and its 20-hour slot was replaced with the Manhattan Limited. The Golden Arrow began withering and the westbound Commodore was rescheduled to leave an hour earlier. Also, the Broadway and Century were getting faster and faster schedules, undoing what was started in late September, 1929.

Rcdrye, go ahead with the next question.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:06 PM

ZephyrOverland
If NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.

Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:45 PM

Overmod

 

 
ZephyrOverland
If NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.

 

Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.

 

Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.

To add more fuel to the fire, there was a Flagler Limited on the FEC in mid-1925.

Either way, the naming of the Commodore Vanderbilt signaled to the industry that naming passenger trains after individuals was appropriate.  Shortly thereafter you start seeing more trains being named in that manner.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 14, 2019 10:00 PM

ZephyrOverland
 
Overmod
 

Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive. 

Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.

.

Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual? Smile

To add more fuel to the fire, there was a Flagler Limited on the FEC in mid-1925.

And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, April 15, 2019 2:22 AM

Overmod

Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual? Smile

Was the Commodore Vanderbilt a preferred engine of the Commodore Vanderbilt? Idea 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, April 15, 2019 6:55 AM

Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...

The train preceded the bathtub streamlining of Hudson 5344.  Apparently 5344 was just part of the pool, and often worked a section of the "Century" or some other name train.

I'll post another question later today.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:07 AM

Overmod

  

And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.

  

According to Baer's list of PRR train names (available at www.prrths.com), Nellie Bly was applied to a New York-Atlantic City run on 4/25/26.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:14 AM

rcdrye

Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...

 

On page 145 in that book, Beebe includes the Railway Age article that describes the 20-hour trains that were introduced on 9/29/29, including the Advance 20th Century Limited and the Commodore Vanderbilt.

I mentioned this in another post some time ago, that Beebe's books, although full of atmosphere, sometimes plays loose with the facts.

If your local library has access to back copies of the Chicago Tribune or New York Times, you can look up articles and advertisements concerning the inaugruations of those trains.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:36 AM

Historical Note

There was a train named indirectly for a person in 1892--the Nancy Hanks, which was actually named for a race horse which had been named for Abraham Lincoln's mother. In 1947, the Central of Georgia revived the name with the Nancy Hanks II, which made a day round trip from Savanna to Atlanta and back, arriving in Savannah at midnight. This train lasted until 5/1/71. It carried a diner-lounge to the end--with a dome car the last few months.

Johnny

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 15, 2019 3:50 PM

Interesting since the ICC said a train named 'Nellie Bly' was involved in one of the Delair Bridge approach wrecks almost three weeks earlier.

I'd also be interested in hearing any other name for the train involved in the Bordentown wreck circa 1901 (the fatal and unexpected third of three sections!)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 12:51 PM

This midwestern electric railroad known for freight activity started out as a steam-powered railroad built to access coal fields.

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:16 PM

The earlier discussion on the "Golden Arrow" caused me to recall that the train named "Fleche d'Or" commenced on 13 September 1926, but the British train was not named "Golden Arrow" until 15 May 1929. So it seems likely that the naming of the British train influenced the naming of the Pennsylvania train later in the same year.

Peter

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 24, 2019 8:26 PM

No one seems to have bitten on the interurban question so I'm going to replace it:

Until the late 1940s two different railroads had lines that carried through Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico.  Name both of them, and the lines.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 25, 2019 7:46 AM

The first question I believe was the Illinois Terminal, and the second, the PRR and NYC.  I believe both the Penn Texas and the Southwestern Limited carried Mexico City sleepers, and of course the Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal.  In the late '40s.

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