Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

728041 views
6757 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December, 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, March 17, 2019 12:43 PM

Was he involved in the Chicago Traction Wars?

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 17, 2019 7:10 PM

SD70Dude

Was he involved in the Chicago Traction Wars?

 

Could be...

  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 11,305 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, March 18, 2019 10:14 AM

The crook in question is Charles Tyson Yerkes, involved with the North Chicago Street Ry, Northwestern Elevated RR, and host of other operations in Chicago.  The mechanical engineer is Frank Hedley.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 18, 2019 1:48 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
The crook in question is Charles Tyson Yerkes, involved with the North Chicago Street Ry, Northwestern Elevated RR, and host of other operations in Chicago. The mechanical engineer is Frank Hedley.

Mr. Yerkes' street railway properties ended up as Chicago Union Traction sometime after he left, whose successor lines inside and outside City limits became Chicago Railways, Chicago & West Towns, and Evanston Ry.  Chicago Railways was one of the underlying companies of Chicago Surface Lines.

The Rapid Transit companies included the Lake Street Elevated, the Northwestern Elevated, the Union Elevated and the Union Consolidated Elevated.  Today's Loop legs stem from the last three.  The only sections built while any of the companies were under his control that have since been demolished are the Market Street branch of the Lake Street, and the section of the Union Consolidated on Van Buren that formerly connected with the Metropolitan.

Frank Hedley's trucks were used on Lake Street and Northwestern cars in Chicago, and also appeared in London on several Underground lines.

Yerkes first appearance in Chicago traction was quite early.  Among other things he was responsible for the North Chicago Street Railway's choice of the "Low & Grim" top grip for North Side lines in an effort to evade the Cable Trust's patents.  He was also involved in many other Chicago businesses, not to mention the pockets of many Chicago Aldermen.

 

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 14,686 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 24, 2019 4:06 AM

We are waiting forCSS's Question.

  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 11,305 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 10:20 AM

South Shore Line's passenger equipment from the Insull era was built to steam railroad standards and dimensions, except for the length.  What was the last equipment owned and operated by South Shore that was NOT built to steam road specs?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 11,305 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 28, 2019 3:23 PM

A bit of a hint.  The cars in question were acquired secondhand from another interurban.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 7,642 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:22 PM

Does the AutoRailer from Virginia used as a line car count for this answer?  Or the car it towed, rebuilt in '47 from an Indiana Railroad car (376?)

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 29, 2019 6:36 AM

Indiana RR (actually Indiana Service Corp) sold three RPOs 375-377 to the South Shore in the 1940s.  375 and 377 became South Shore box trailers 503-504, used mainly in newspaper service.  376 was rebuilt by South Shore to line car 1100, retired in 2003, now at Illinois Railway Museum.  The cars were built for ISC as baggage-coaches by St. Louis in 1925, rebuilt to RPO-coaches by IRR around 1932.

Even though Indiana RR appeared to be one railroad, the Indiana Service Corp lines remained under ISC ownership.  The last section of the IRR to operate passenger service, a franchise run from the edge of Indianapolis to Seymour Indiana, was actually run by ISC (with IRR cars) after IRR shut down.

  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 11,305 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, March 29, 2019 7:11 AM

We have a winner.  When I was much younger, I can remember seeing the eastbound train a bit after 10:00 AM from my back yard with an express trailer attached.

rcdrye, it's your question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:02 AM

We'll stick with the South Shore - or at least its history.

The Chicago Lake Shore and South Bend began interchange freight service behind AC boxcab electric locomotives in 1907. To deal with traffic growth, the Lake Shore borrowed heavier electric locomotives during 1914 and 1915 while waiting to order its own additional AC boxcabs - which it never did.  The electrics served with their owner's lettering before returning west.  Before they were retired by their owner, they wore the symbol of a major railroad.  Name the locomotive's owner and the major railroad that later owned the system.

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 7,642 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:43 AM

Is this related to locomotives 505 and 506, that wound up on Canadian National as 175-176?

Presumably from one of the Canadian Northern properties at the time, although I don't have any references as to which one.  This would be a fun topic for String Lining over on the regular forum.

  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 11,305 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, March 30, 2019 10:05 AM

CLS&B 505-506 went to the St. Clair Tunnel Co. as 175-176 when South Shore converted from 6600 volt AC to 1500 volt DC in 1926.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 7,642 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:21 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
CLS&B 505-506 went to the St. Clair Tunnel Co. as 175-176 when South Shore converted from 6600 volt AC to 1500 volt DC in 1926.

My reference said St. Clair was 3300V (at least the 1907 locomotives were) and that the two CLS&SB locomotives I mentioned were built (at Baldwin with Westinghouse electrical gear) in Sept. 1916, which is after the dates given (builder #s 43681 and -2).  They also reminded me that this was Grand Trunk, not Canadian Northern which was a completely 'nother electrification.

So there is more to this.  Not answered yet.  

Some history of the tunnel construction and operation is

https://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2019/02/cngtw-st-clair-tunnels.html.

(Third fatal asphyxiation accident due to consist break-in-two before they electrified it???)

And details of the electrification

https://books.google.com/books?id=OXI5AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=st.clair+tunnel+company+locomotives&source=bl&ots=BPBzw2caMq&sig=ACfU3U1AWXKrNW5Hv1c0rmvrEYvub17l0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifr8mAs6rhAhWGiOAKHf1bAr84FBDoATAEegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=st.clair%20tunnel%20company%20locomotives&f=false

I see URL tags have stopped working again.  When Kalmbach gets the finger out, I'll edit to make the links less obvious.

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 4,387 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:48 PM

Grand Trunk not Canadian National

edit... I see you already addressed that , good good 

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 30, 2019 1:26 PM

This isn't about the eventual move of CL&SB's own 3300v engines (which did end up on the St. Clair Tunnel Co.), but about CL&SB borrowing engines from another AC-motored railway during 1914 and 1915.  The company they were borrowed from did become a part of a larger system, and the borrowed engines eventually had the logo of that larger system painted on their sides.

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 2:31 PM

What you're looking for is a railroad with engines similar in size to CLS&SB's, but not necessarily with the same voltage.  Some of the loaning railroad's engines were later set up so they could be used on the parent railroad's electric segment.

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,017 posts
Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, April 03, 2019 11:58 PM

rcdrye

What you're looking for is a railroad with engines similar in size to CLS&SB's, but not necessarily with the same voltage.  Some of the loaning railroad's engines were later set up so they could be used on the parent railroad's electric segment.

 

I do not know if this will help someone but was the other railroad the Rock Island Southern interurban? 

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 04, 2019 7:57 AM

narig01
I do not know if this will help someone but was the other railroad the Rock Island Southern interurban?

Right voltage, wrong interurban.  RIS only ran passenger service under 6600 volt overhead, freight was steam.  Look a little further west.

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 14,686 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 05, 2019 5:26 AM

Did the loaning railroad eventually convert to DC, and/or were the loomotives rebuilt for DC operation? 

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 05, 2019 9:20 AM

Loaning railroad remained AC to the end of electric operation.  Several of the loaning RRs engines were set up to allow operation on the parent RR's higher voltage wire, though it's not clear whether they were ever used there.

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,017 posts
Posted by narig01 on Friday, April 05, 2019 8:40 PM

rcdrye

Loaning railroad remained AC to the end of electric operation.  Several of the loaning RRs engines were set up to allow operation on the parent RR's higher voltage wire, though it's not clear whether they were ever used there.

 

I thought the South Shore AC electrification was a single phase, and Great Northern's first electrification was three phase. 

Anyway a guess Great Northern?

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 07, 2019 7:33 AM

narig01
Anyway a guess Great Northern?

GN's 1927 re-electrification was single phase 11.5K VAC.  Some of these engines were set up so they could operate there (long after the loan to CLS&SB...) - so you have part of the answer...

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 7,642 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 07, 2019 8:44 AM

I had never heard of the Spokane, Coeur d'Alene and Palouse before.  Suspect from what I have found out (which ain't much so far) that the engines in question are Baldwin 50-ton boxcabs 603 and 604 (indicated as having been rewired to 6600V in one of the GN rosters)

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 07, 2019 12:47 PM

Originally the Spokane & Inland Empire, the SC&P was owned by the Hills after 1909, folded into the GN as SC&P in 1929.  SC&P motors carried sublettering with a large GN goat logo on their sides. 

The Lake Shore borrowed a couple of motors, not at the same time, in 1914 and 1915 (It's fairly easy to set up a 6600V AC motor to run on 3300V, just change some transformer taps). 

The S&IE operated its own lines as well as the 750 VAC Spokane Traction lines, which were later divested to Washingon Power Co and converted to DC.  Motors 603 and 604 were equipped with dual pantographs and could operate if necessary under GN's 11.5 KV AC wire, though it does not seem that that feature was used much, if at all.  Other S&IE/SC&P motors had a pantograph and a trolley pole.

SC&P Motors

Nariq01 got the owning railroad,  Overmod the name of the line.  If it's OK with you two I'd like to see something from Nariq01, since we haven't had the pleasure for a while.

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,017 posts
Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 07, 2019 1:23 PM

I had thought SC&P used 600vdc. And had not thought about any A.C. interurbans in the west. 

     I do have a question in mind if overmod does not want the question. 

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 7,642 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 07, 2019 4:06 PM

If Nariq hadn't said "GN" I'd never have found SC&P, so it's his by right.  All I extracted were the details.

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,709 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 07, 2019 4:26 PM

narig01

I had thought SC&P used 600vdc. And had not thought about any A.C. interurbans in the west. 

     I do have a question in mind if overmod does not want the question. 

 

AC interurbans were rare anyway.  The only western ones I can think of were Visalia Electric (3300 volt 15 Hz (SP)) and the San Francisco Napa & Calistoga - later San Francisco & Napa Valley - at 3300 volts 25 Hz.  A remnant of the SF&NV, the Mare Island Freight Line, remained electrically operated until 1942.

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,017 posts
Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 07, 2019 11:37 PM

I had my copy of Wm Middleton's Interurbans book dragged out. And did some looking on the internet. I had not seen how much trackage SC&P had. In addition when looking at AC installations I think you also have to consider the frequency. 

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Hope, AR
  • 2,017 posts
Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 07, 2019 11:45 PM

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

 

 

 

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

 

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

 

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

 

Can anyone name this?

 

 

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter