Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 1:57 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

I'm going to say Chicago Junction, later part of Chicago River & Indiana, which served the Union Stock Yards.  The rapid transit lines were the Stockyards branch and the Kenwood branch of the South Side Rapid Transit.

 

Exactly correct.  In the weird world of railroad law, the Kenwood and Stock Yards branches were leased from the Chicago Junction Railroad, which was in turn owned by the Chicago Junction Railway, which in turn was eventually leased by the Chicago River and Indiana/NYC System.  Units were sublettered for CR&I into the Penn Central era.

The result of the above lease was that the 1934 Stock Yards fire left the NYC System on the hook oto rebuild the Stock Yards branch.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 06, 2018 10:09 AM

Since I've answered the last two questions, I'll let somebody else pose the next question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 07, 2018 7:39 AM

OK,I will but in.   What were the obvious, viewable, differences between the original NYCentral J1 Hudsons and the J2s.   And what was the main difference that made the J2s usuitable for long-distance service once the territory of their built-for application was dieselized early-on.  A correctable difference.  But I do not know if any got a correction.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 07, 2018 2:18 PM

Well there were two: the 75" drivers and the smaller tenders.  I don't know if the lack of cistern volume and high-speed scooping gear was necessarily a drawback in the kind of long-distance service that an early Hudson would be expected to handle after dieselization -- this presumes that most of the B&A passenger traffic was dieselized before the push for "Dieseliners" on the Water Level Route, something I would be dubious about regardless of the advantages of dieselization for freight traffic across the Berkshires.

I don't suppose sagging cabs count as a viewable 'difference' that would make the locomotives unsuitable for passenger service ... but it sure did make them look sad!

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, September 07, 2018 6:51 PM

What is a "sagging cab"?

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:42 AM

Overmod, you got enough right to ask the next question, and I apologize for not getting back earlier.  You left out the square sand dome, of larger capacity than those on the J1.  The smaller tender was adquate for Boston - Albany, but lacked both coal and water capacity, the latter repairable by scoops if installed, for Harmon  - Buffalo or Colingwood - Chicago.

I assure you from personal experience that the B&A was dieselized completely before most of the rest of the Central's system, for the reasons you indicated.  This even inclulded RS3s and Budd RDCs in Boston suburban service, replacing Pacifics and 4-6-6Ts.  If memory is correct, B & A steam was completely gone by January 1952.

If I remember correctly, the Mohawks that ran on the B&A also had smaller tenders, but not quite so small.

I did see some B&A power around that time on the Michigan Central in the Detroit area, but don't recall what or why.

Sagging cabs?   I am willing to learn what you mean by that.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 9:47 AM

NP Eddie
What is a "sagging cab"?

If you look at photographs of the J2 Hudsons, some of them have cabs that visibly tilt toward the rear.  Al Staufer in Thoroughbreds devoted some discussion to what might have caused this (e.g. boiler expansion causing the cab to be pulled down by the rear support plate - his expression, not mine) and he does make multiple reference to the saggy cabs in his picture captions.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 9:50 AM

daveklepper
If memory is correct, B & A steam was completely gone by January 1952.

That would be right -- but at least some of the J2s did not die when their B&A duty ended.  There are pictures of them in service out of Weehawken on the West Shore, and it might be interesting to find out how long they ran there.  It's possible some were assigned in other service, too; it stands to reason the locomotives Mr. Klepper reported might be Hudsons.

Sorry for missing that big, square sandbox -- a major difference!

I should qualify what I was saying about dieselization.  I do not really know whether most or all of the early NYC passenger-diesel purchases went toward the well-advertised 'Dieseliner' services (how many of these were Boston trains or had 'Boston sections' that were diesel-hauled?) in the early years of that program.  It would be interesting to see when, and with what classes of engine, the J2s were replaced on B&A trains.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 13, 2018 4:27 AM

I was an undergraduate at MIT. 1949-1953, grad school to 1954 and again 1956-1957.  During this time a sister and her family lived in Detroit.  I rode the B&A, usually the Wolverine, regularly.  The J2s were replaced entirely by EMD E-7 and E-8 power, usually one A and on B unit, sometimes A-B-A, rarely A-A back-to-back.  I never rode the Boston section of this train with less than two units.  I did not ride the N. E. States during this period, but did ride both trains often 1957-1967.  From 1948, from observations, the New England States was powered similarly, A-B-A perhaps more often.  And from 1950, two units usual on the Ohio State Limited's Boston section.

I think I rode behind a J2 only once on the Boston section of the Wolverine before steam came off this train.

While steam lasted, the J2s were supplemented by dual-service Mowahks with small tenders on the through Albany trains, with the Pacifics mostly running Boston - Springfield on locals and on the interline New Haven trains to New York via the inland route.  J2s were also used on the latter on occasion, especially after the New England States got diesels before the other trains. 

I did not see Alco passemger power on the B&A except the RS-3s on suburban trains. 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:03 AM

NYC's only sets of passenger F3s were assigned to the B&A, and the use of RS3's on secondary trains like the Paul Revere is pretty well documented.  Alco PA's were also common visitors (B&A freight power ran heavily to FAs).

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 16, 2018 5:03 AM

I rode the Paul Revere once, and yes, it had RS3s, two in MU, if I remember correctly.  But I never saw the passenger F3s on a passenger train on the B&A.  I think they may have been transfered to freight service fairly early, and would be undistinguishable to my eyes from other F3s.  The Alco PAs may have visited, but not when I was observing or riding.  I think I did see Alco FAs on B&A freight.  Not sure.  

Waiting for Overmod's question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 26, 2018 1:30 PM

Hey What's Up  (or down?)

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:27 PM

Quizzes stuck in limbo. Need a new question here and a 'call' on the other.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:00 PM

Yeah, someone post one.  I'm still working on one but all the ones I have are too esoteric...

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:10 PM

Dave K.--- The floor is open for you!

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 29, 2018 2:14 PM

On four or five of the NeW York City Transit Authority rapid transit lines a number of stations have rush hour service about twice as frequenstly in the direction opposite to heavy traffic than in the direction of heavy traffice.

Why?   (Don't answer if this is the only question you can answer)

Which lines?   (If you know at least three, by all means answer!)

Bonus queestion 1.    Which borough has only one such station.  Which and where?  2.  The transit & railroad history of ths specific locaton (not just the station itself) is one of the most involved and interesting in the NY City area.  Explain.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 30, 2018 5:37 AM

Alright, I'll reduce the requirement to two.  One should be well-known already, since it is becoming the most modern technologically.

One or possibly two lines operate in two boroughs, Manahattan a common borough for both.  The doubtful one, the condition exists only rush hours, the other weekdays between rush hours as well.

Another line has two services when the condition exists, one service is full time with changes but always is present in three boroughs, the other service weekdays only, also three boroughs, and when it runs the condition exists.  Both cross a bridge.

The final example has three services, all cross a bridge between two boroughs, and one operates in three services with a route that is almost a oomplete circle.

Another line normally has two services, both covering three boroughs, and the condition exists only during rush hours, when one of the two sercice runs alternately to two northern destinations.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 01, 2018 1:20 PM

As to "why," well one and only one Chicago "L' line had the same condition.

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, October 01, 2018 8:57 PM

Aren't there any other New Yorkers on this thread? Or anyone who can do some basic research? 

 

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Main_Page

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 02, 2018 5:55 AM

Lots of railfan tourist make a point of riding the best know of these lines.   Runs only in two boroughs.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 03, 2018 5:02 AM

And so I will accept one line as an asnwer!

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, October 03, 2018 8:20 PM

The final example is easy,  the M line. Starts at Metropolitan Av in Middle Village, Queens goes across the Williamsburg Bridge up Sixth Av in Manhattan thence back to Queens out to Forest Hills. The M cuts back to just a Myrtle Av shuttle from Broadway to Metropolitan Av after 1145pm til 545am.

The Q Second Av Broadway Express. Only late nite this is a Broadway local. Reason for heavy reverse rush hours. I think that the lack of a layup yard at the current Manhattan terminal cause s NYCTA to send trains into Manhattan for the Coney Island return. Also I have not heard what impact the new my opened Second Av stub is having.

B Central Park West local, Sixth Av express , Brighton Line Express, Grand Concourse local. During rush hours this line goes up to Bedford Park in the Bronx. It is local on the Eighth Av line then express all the to Brighton Beach. I would think some of the imbalances happen on this line on account of jobs being in midtown Manhattan and the ends of the line being where people live.(This also occurs with the M and to a lesser extent on the Q). 

    I'm doing much of the traffic patterns from what I remember of the city years ago(before the Second Av subway), and how I perceive the changes that have occurred. Also news reports.

otherwise known as a WAG(wild ass guess):-) 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 04, 2018 6:43 AM

The M-line is indeed part of the answer for one specific line, but there are 1-and-1/2 other services on the part of the route that is this example, with two other services in the rush hour heavy traffic direction, and the trains of one changing and displaying the sign of the other service, going in the reverse direction.   (End destinations the same for both).   Why?   Has nothing to do with layup yards.   And this is not the line that is the first choice to ride for railfan tourists.

 Brighton line and Broadway Manhattan are not one of the lines.

But here is an unusual photo.   I boarded this train around midnight in 1947 and took this picture before boarding.  My parents had reluctantly given me permission to spend most of the night on a John Kneiling arranged ride on an unusual but weekly non-revenue subway move.  I boarded at either Times Square or Herald Square.  At the time, we could have use any of the four, Sea bEach, West End, Culver, or Brighton to the final destination.  I do remember we used the Manhattan Bridge, not the Montague Street Tunnel.  And we had a Transit Police escorted tour from the destination to the nearest public platform for a return by regular trains.

The two cars in the train regularly ran on the same tracks but were never coupled together in regular service.  In fact, they did not mu.  The one one the right, all-steel, was one of four or five, all motors.  The one on left was the lead of a steel-and-wood motor-trailer-motor combination that regularly did not enter Manahattan, and in this movement was all-trailer and pulled by the steel motors.

Which line(s).   And even then the specific line had stations with more service in the opposite direcdtion of the rush hour.   But not before 1938 or 1939.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 04, 2018 6:46 AM

Yes, the B is also part of the solution.  But not on the Brighton line.   And it is not the service that behaves differently in one direction than the other.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 04, 2018 7:12 AM

Above a photo taken at the destination of the non-revenue movement that John Kneiling arranged for us to ride.

This photo shows we used either the West End (now D) or the Culver, cannot tell whether this is the upper or lower level of the 9th Avenue station.  These steel cars never ran here in regular service until much later, when a few were equipped with widened side-sills to reduce platform gapping and were assigned to the 9th Avenue - Ditmas Shutle, now abandoned, structure removed.

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 04, 2018 7:22 AM

And the only Chicago line with the same condition was the Southside's main line.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, October 04, 2018 11:43 AM

Triple tracked lines. The Flushing and the West End lines are both triple tracked. The Flushing line was also unusual in that it had both IRT and BMT lines on it until 1947 or 1948(I think). The 7 line is in the process of getting the new CBTC. It also has a new terminus at 34th St. And I forgot about the Worlds Fair.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, October 04, 2018 12:07 PM

And the Broadway(Brooklyn) line is triple tracked.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, October 04, 2018 12:27 PM

daveklepper

 

This photo shows we used either the West End (now D) or the Culver, cannot tell whether this is the upper or lower level of the 9th Avenue station.  These steel cars never ran here in regular service until much later, when a few were equipped with widened side-sills to reduce platform gapping and were assigned to the 9th Avenue - Ditmas Shutle, now abandoned, structure removed.

 

 

 

The Ninth Ave shot is on the upper level I think. Looking at other pictures of the the upper and lower levels of shows the lower level had heavier beams, while the upper level has lattice(?) in the beams for the canopies. I took a look at the pictures on the nycsubway site(I don't trust my memory as it has proven embarrassingly faulty at times).

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/showpix?bnN0YSBpbiAoMjEyMTI4KXwwfDV8NTB8U2hvd2luZ3wvd2lraS9CTVRfV2VzdF9FbmRfTGluZXxueWVhciBkZXNjLG5tb24gZGVzYyxuZGF5IGRlc2M=

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 04, 2018 12:44 PM

Of course you are correct.  So our non-revenue move to C. I. Shops used the West End line.

The situation also existed on the 2nd, 3rd, and 9th Avenue elevated lines in Manhattan and from Atlantic Avenue to 36th Street on 5th Avenue in Brooklyn.

Brooklyn has no examples now.  The two lines that served 9th Avenue (only one does now) could have had this situation; indeed they were probably built for it, but did not.   And Manhattan has just one station.  

You did get two right answers.  Triple-track is correct, so expreses have to return as locals, and Flushing No. 7 is also correct.  The photo of the two types coupled shows an IRT steel "Steinway" car at right and a BMT Q-type at left.  They ran on Flushing with heavy-traffic-direction express service and on Astoroia without express service.  The inbound terminal of the BMT Q-types, a 1938 rebuild of 1904 wood gate-cars, as Queensboro Plaza for connection to BMT wider standard subway cars.  After 1948 changes, BMT subway cars ran through and are running through to Astoria, andther  the IRT is sole possessor of Flushing..  The other lines are 2 and 5 in the Bronx, with the rush hour Whiite Plains Rd. 5 running express non-stop 149th and 3rd Ave, the D and B at W. 155th St. in Manhattan and on the Concourse in the Bronx with the D express, direcdtion of heavy traffic, returning as local, and the M. J. Z. combination on Broadway - Brooklyn, with the Z express running direction of heavy traffic only,returningas a J.

Not sure about the 6 in The Bronx.  At time yes, at times no.  Have not had a chance to check on this.

 

The station at 155th and 8th, with only the B stopping in the direction of heavy traffic, both B and D in the reverse, and the D when the B doesn't run weekends and nights, is below where the northern terminal of the 9th Avenue Elevated (inncluding most 6th Ave elevated trains) was.  And steam trains from the Putnam line crossed a drawer-bridge to use the elevated station as their southern New York City terminal, inlcuding a through train each way each day to and from Boston.  When the 9th Avenue elevated was extended across the Putnam's bridge into The Bronx, the "Put" was cut back to a Sedgewick Avenue station adjoining the elevated line's station.  In June 1940, with Unificatin, the main portion of the 9th Avenue elevated was abandoned, and the elevated station at 155th and 8th became the southern terminal of the "Polo Grounds Shuttle" to 167th and Jerome Avenue, with paper transfer to the subway below.  Now also gone.

Narig, your question 

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