Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 1:57 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

I'm going to say Chicago Junction, later part of Chicago River & Indiana, which served the Union Stock Yards.  The rapid transit lines were the Stockyards branch and the Kenwood branch of the South Side Rapid Transit.

 

Exactly correct.  In the weird world of railroad law, the Kenwood and Stock Yards branches were leased from the Chicago Junction Railroad, which was in turn owned by the Chicago Junction Railway, which in turn was eventually leased by the Chicago River and Indiana/NYC System.  Units were sublettered for CR&I into the Penn Central era.

The result of the above lease was that the 1934 Stock Yards fire left the NYC System on the hook oto rebuild the Stock Yards branch.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 06, 2018 10:09 AM

Since I've answered the last two questions, I'll let somebody else pose the next question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 07, 2018 7:39 AM

OK,I will but in.   What were the obvious, viewable, differences between the original NYCentral J1 Hudsons and the J2s.   And what was the main difference that made the J2s usuitable for long-distance service once the territory of their built-for application was dieselized early-on.  A correctable difference.  But I do not know if any got a correction.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 07, 2018 2:18 PM

Well there were two: the 75" drivers and the smaller tenders.  I don't know if the lack of cistern volume and high-speed scooping gear was necessarily a drawback in the kind of long-distance service that an early Hudson would be expected to handle after dieselization -- this presumes that most of the B&A passenger traffic was dieselized before the push for "Dieseliners" on the Water Level Route, something I would be dubious about regardless of the advantages of dieselization for freight traffic across the Berkshires.

I don't suppose sagging cabs count as a viewable 'difference' that would make the locomotives unsuitable for passenger service ... but it sure did make them look sad!

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, September 07, 2018 6:51 PM

What is a "sagging cab"?

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:42 AM

Overmod, you got enough right to ask the next question, and I apologize for not getting back earlier.  You left out the square sand dome, of larger capacity than those on the J1.  The smaller tender was adquate for Boston - Albany, but lacked both coal and water capacity, the latter repairable by scoops if installed, for Harmon  - Buffalo or Colingwood - Chicago.

I assure you from personal experience that the B&A was dieselized completely before most of the rest of the Central's system, for the reasons you indicated.  This even inclulded RS3s and Budd RDCs in Boston suburban service, replacing Pacifics and 4-6-6Ts.  If memory is correct, B & A steam was completely gone by January 1952.

If I remember correctly, the Mohawks that ran on the B&A also had smaller tenders, but not quite so small.

I did see some B&A power around that time on the Michigan Central in the Detroit area, but don't recall what or why.

Sagging cabs?   I am willing to learn what you mean by that.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 9:47 AM

NP Eddie
What is a "sagging cab"?

If you look at photographs of the J2 Hudsons, some of them have cabs that visibly tilt toward the rear.  Al Staufer in Thoroughbreds devoted some discussion to what might have caused this (e.g. boiler expansion causing the cab to be pulled down by the rear support plate - his expression, not mine) and he does make multiple reference to the saggy cabs in his picture captions.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 12, 2018 9:50 AM

daveklepper
If memory is correct, B & A steam was completely gone by January 1952.

That would be right -- but at least some of the J2s did not die when their B&A duty ended.  There are pictures of them in service out of Weehawken on the West Shore, and it might be interesting to find out how long they ran there.  It's possible some were assigned in other service, too; it stands to reason the locomotives Mr. Klepper reported might be Hudsons.

Sorry for missing that big, square sandbox -- a major difference!

I should qualify what I was saying about dieselization.  I do not really know whether most or all of the early NYC passenger-diesel purchases went toward the well-advertised 'Dieseliner' services (how many of these were Boston trains or had 'Boston sections' that were diesel-hauled?) in the early years of that program.  It would be interesting to see when, and with what classes of engine, the J2s were replaced on B&A trains.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 13, 2018 4:27 AM

I was an undergraduate at MIT. 1949-1953, grad school to 1954 and again 1956-1957.  During this time a sister and her family lived in Detroit.  I rode the B&A, usually the Wolverine, regularly.  The J2s were replaced entirely by EMD E-7 and E-8 power, usually one A and on B unit, sometimes A-B-A, rarely A-A back-to-back.  I never rode the Boston section of this train with less than two units.  I did not ride the N. E. States during this period, but did ride both trains often 1957-1967.  From 1948, from observations, the New England States was powered similarly, A-B-A perhaps more often.  And from 1950, two units usual on the Ohio State Limited's Boston section.

I think I rode behind a J2 only once on the Boston section of the Wolverine before steam came off this train.

While steam lasted, the J2s were supplemented by dual-service Mowahks with small tenders on the through Albany trains, with the Pacifics mostly running Boston - Springfield on locals and on the interline New Haven trains to New York via the inland route.  J2s were also used on the latter on occasion, especially after the New England States got diesels before the other trains. 

I did not see Alco passemger power on the B&A except the RS-3s on suburban trains. 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, September 14, 2018 7:03 AM

NYC's only sets of passenger F3s were assigned to the B&A, and the use of RS3's on secondary trains like the Paul Revere is pretty well documented.  Alco PA's were also common visitors (B&A freight power ran heavily to FAs).

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 16, 2018 5:03 AM

I rode the Paul Revere once, and yes, it had RS3s, two in MU, if I remember correctly.  But I never saw the passenger F3s on a passenger train on the B&A.  I think they may have been transfered to freight service fairly early, and would be undistinguishable to my eyes from other F3s.  The Alco PAs may have visited, but not when I was observing or riding.  I think I did see Alco FAs on B&A freight.  Not sure.  

Waiting for Overmod's question.

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