Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 13, 2018 8:19 AM

To go back to the original...

The optional honoring pool included:

A city pair that was part of a GN/NP/Soo pool menitoned in an earlier quiz

A railroad that was NOT one of the Hill lines (think future BN)

A second railroad that was NOT part of the hill lines

Two other cities, both lake ports, served by both involved railroads, one via a short (electric) connection to one of the railroads, and two intermediate towns where both railroads had stations.

I'll throw in that both railroads were really "systems" which operated as if they were single railroads.  On one about half of the run was on a parent, half on a subsidiary.  On the other the entire run was on the subsidiary.  Both subsidiaries were later merged with the parents/partners.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, July 13, 2018 10:47 AM

Soo and C&NW, between Chicago and Duluth. Milwaukee was included by way of a traction connection to the Soo.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 13, 2018 12:05 PM

There you go.  You could also do Superior or a couple of stations in northern Wisconsin (Gordon and Solon Springs).  Both Soo (Wisconsin Central) and C&NW (C&NW/CStPM&O via Elroy Wisconsin) had overnight trains.  Soo also had an all-stops coach-only local, and C&NW had a day train connection (via Eau Claire).  TMER&L interurbans met Soo trains at Waukesha, honoring Soo tickets to Milwaukee.

This cozy arrangement did not extend to other common Soo/C&NW points like the Twin Cities, Fond du Lac and Ashland.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:28 PM

In 1953, one road had two trains named for a very hard element, another road had one train named for the same element, and a third road provided a through coach to the second road's train but did not name its train in the detailed schedule even though it named it in the condensed schedule.

Name the roads, the trains, and the end points.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 15, 2018 7:09 AM

The second railroad is the Lehigh Valley, and the train is the New York  - Buffalo Black Diamond.  The through coach ran Bethlahem - Philadelphia on the Reading, to and from Buffalo on the LV.

The first railroad must be the Illinois Central with its Green Diamonds, which I assume provided twice dailiy Chicago  - St. Louis service..

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 15, 2018 7:59 AM

Dave, you have the roads and the names right--but the IC had only one Green Diamond train, and it made one round trip, St. Louis to Chicago and back. each day The Daylight, also streamlined, ran Chicago to St.Louis and back each day.

Ah, the passenger service sicty-five years ago!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 15, 2018 11:14 AM

Someone explain to me how either anthracite coal or a painted lozenge shape qualifies as an 'extremely hard element'.  Neither train name involves metastable carbon gemstones.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, July 15, 2018 12:09 PM

Having researched this throughly and double checking, neither Anthracite coal or ' Green Diamond' appear on the periodic table of elements.

However...since Deggesty poised the question and David Klepper answered it with no hesitation I can only assume I have overlooked something....unless it's an inside job. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 15, 2018 12:41 PM

Hey, wait a minute, what about the Reading "King Coal" being the other train named for the same thing as "Black Diamond", which would jibe with the through-coach information provided.  Of course we are talking the gemstone "jet" and not "diamond" -- but that leaves only the business about the third-road train's name, and a '53 OG would surely provide that!

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 15, 2018 2:17 PM

Diamonds are extremely hard carbon. There was no thought of coal when I posed the question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 15, 2018 2:21 PM

What the answere to my answer tells me is that the IC had another Diamond beside the Green Diamond.  Without the necessary resources, I have not found this train.

But I would also point out that at various times, my memory says the Black Diamond, running opposite to the Maple Leaf, also had one or two through coahes to and from Toronto, via unnamed CN trains.  Am I correct on this?  Or did the Mapel Leaf provide the only through service.

The thought occurs that perhaps at the time, the IC had a branch-line train that connected with the Green Diamond.  If the IC served Peoria via a branch line, possibly there was a Peoria Diamond branch-line connecting train.

While the name Black Daimond was picked to exhole the main frieight commodity that paid the bills, still, the diamond-shaped herald was not a good picture of any lump of coal that I ever saw.  Painting a diamond black (or green) still keeps it a diamond.  Or does it?   Was the name Green Diamond kept by the IC when the original articulated was replaced by differently painted post-war liightweight equipment?

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 15, 2018 2:28 PM

Dave, at another time, there may have been a thorugh coach to Toronto--but not in 1953. 

Yes, the IC did have another train with "Diamond" in its name. You did name the roads that in 1953 showed trains with that word in the names of trains. What name might be possible for another train?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 15, 2018 7:24 PM

The "Daylight" and "Night" Diamonds would have been running in '53 (they came off in 1958).  Meanwhile, wasn't the very oldest named train IC ran between Chicago and St. Louis the "Diamond Special"?

Still have nothing whatsoever to do with carbon in any form... Big Smile  The Green Diamond is the color and geometrical shape of the IC herald.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 15, 2018 7:53 PM

The second train on the IC at that time was the Night Diamond.

Dave found the roads and two of the three names.

Please: diamonds are crystalline carbon.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, July 15, 2018 10:10 PM

Yeah well so is graphite. Diamond is a mineral. The periodic table doesn't say 'Diamond' it says Carbon. 

It doesn't matter still luv ya anyway. 

Have to admit when I read the question I immediately thought of the LV Black Diamond, but then I said, "naw, he said element", so I actually did go to the periodic table to see if any train names could be found matching something very hard. Thought maybe something with Iron.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, July 16, 2018 10:04 AM
Subject: Johnny



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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 3:30 AM

The name Zephyr is associated mainly with the Burlington System, the CB&Q and its subsidiaries.  But five other railroads at one time or another, including of course today, had and have resonsibilties for Zephyrs, not counting temrinal access and yard trackage.  Name all five railroads and the specific trains and terminals and junctions with other railroads, some of course more than one train.  Optional extra:  periods of operation.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 AM

CZ - CB&Q(BN), D&RGW, WP Chicago - Denver - Salt Lake City - Oakland 1948-1970

California Zephyr Service BN,D&RGW 1970-1971

Rio Grande Zephyr D&RGW 1971-1983 Denver-Ogden

D&RGW carried Denver Zephyr cars Denver-Colorado Springs 1956-1966

Zephyr Rocket  - CRI&P Twin Cities CRI&P Burlington IA CB&Q St. Louis 1941-1967

Sam Houston Zephyr - Burlington-Rock Island Fort Worth-Dallas Houston 1936-1966  Operated by FW&D as part of Joint Texas Division after 1964.

Amtrak's use of the Zephyr name is complicated by the use of the San Francisco Zephyr name when the train was still operated Chicago-Denver-Cheyenne-Ogden-Oakland by BN-UP-SP, still as a contract train until 1974.  The name stuck until the California Zephyr name was adopted in 1983 with the switch to D&RGW/SP, now UP, and using the ex-WP from Salt Lake City to Wells Nevada.

This list leaves out the C&S/FW&D Texas Zephyr between Denver and Fort Worth/Dallas 1940-1967 - but that was really a Burlington Route train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 9:48 AM

Correction, the Burlington System included of course all subsidaries, but what I neglected was that the Burlington System, Burlington Northern, and BNSF could be regarded as three separate railroads, unlike the UP before and after swallowing the SP, WP, and D&RGW that came with the SP.  So the five really ought to be severn.  And I am not referring only to the classic period but all time.  

RC, you are almost there, now complete the job.

As an example, the D&RGW could be inlcuded just because it handled the Colorado Springs equipment of the Denver Zephyr.  But of course it is included also because of more important reasons.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 10:00 AM

On looking over your answer again, I think you have the whole story except for the following:

The Rio Grande Zephyr was cut back from Ogden to Salt Lake City in 1972, with van/taxi service provided Salt Lake City-Ogden for all through ticketed passengers connecting to and from Amtrak to and from the west at Ogden 1972-1983.  

You did mention SP.  Go ahead and ask the next question.   Thanks

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, July 21, 2018 6:54 AM

This midwestern raiload, part of a larger system, ran trains connecting the last three of its namesake cities.  Southbound secondary trains ran timetable west on its own line, terminating at its own station not shared with other railroads. Trains that contributed to its parents through train services ran timetable east on its parents line for 100 miles or so before resuming their original westbound numbers to cross a major river, terminating in a union station its parent shared with its through service partners.  Name the railroad, the places where it "reversed direction" and maybe a name train on the route.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 22, 2018 8:32 AM

Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis, part of the Lousville and Nashville system, with its own Chattanooga station.   Dixieland, Dixie Flyer, Dixie Flagler.

North-to-South number direction changes:  Nashville, Columbia, Stevenson.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 23, 2018 6:56 AM

Not NC&St.L.  Aside from being (arguably) not midwestern, it was independent.  This railroad I'm looking for shared its parent's bright color scheme, though some cars carried for connection used a different, equally bright scheme.  Maybe it will help if I mention that the chief competitors on the route both favored maroon in their diesel era paint schemes.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:03 AM

By competitors you refer to other than the railroad and its owner railroad in the question?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 6:15 AM

daveklepper

By competitors you refer to other than the railroad and its owner railroad in the question?

 

Although other routes were possibe, there were three railroads that had one-seat (or at least one-berth) service beteween the endpoints. 

The railroad I'm looking for, and its western connection, also shared a common color, though local and through cars had different shades.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, July 24, 2018 2:00 PM

Soo Line and Canadian Pacific? Soo Dominion as an example. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 7:28 AM

Let's see if I can add a few things. 

The train I'm looking four ran between three cities, all of them in the corporate name of the company which was part of a larger system. Two of them were close together.

Through cars were (generally) going a long way west, but not so much north. 

All cars on the line's trains in the postwar era, including through cars, had yellow paint, even if of different shades, and with different secondary colors. 

The southernost (westernmost) point served was a major railroad junction with a union station, even though the line had trains that also used its own station. 

The two competitors on the route offered one-seat or one-berth service and both favored maroon paint in the diesel era.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 30, 2018 2:03 PM

How about I add "before 1955"....

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 3:27 PM

Is this it?



Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis, and Omaha 

What came to be known as the "Omaha Road" began as the Tomah & Lake St. Croix
in Wisconsin on April 1, 1863. After expansions and consolidations it acquired the name Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha on May 25, 1880. Controlled by Chicago & North Western after 1882 and operated as a part of C&NW system, comprising the lines north of Elroy, Wis., and Omaha to Minneapolis-St. Paul and Ashland, Wis. The corporation lasted until 1957, and its official identity was maintained until 1972
.”


Name train could be the Nightingale in 1939 C&NW timetable. Sorry, don't know anything about reverse direction. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 4:24 PM

Both the Nightingale an the North American changed direction en route (you can see the numbers on page 12 of the timetable).  By 1948 both were carrying through Pullmans to Los Angeles, with an 8-1-2 heavyweight on the Nightingale (201-2-201 and 202-1-202), and a lightweight 6-6-4 on the North American (203-10-203 and 204-9-204) which was a day train. Omaha Road had its own Webster Street station in Omaha.  Trains like the North American used C&NW's line south of Sioux City to Council Bluffs to get to Union Station so cars could be interchanged to Union Pacific's trains to the west, changing timetable direction twice in the process.  The Nightingale's through cars via the Gold Coast and Pony Express were discontinued first, but all through cars were gone by 1955, and Twin Cities-Omaha trains by the early 1960s. CStPM&O's unnamed train direct to Omaha ran as 209 and 210 all the way.

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