Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, May 26, 2018 8:55 PM

rcdrye

That leaves only the MoPac (Joint w/ D&RGW north of Pueblo).  UP's Yellowstone car apparently only ran in 1925.  Did MP carry the car that year?

 

It wasn't MoPac either.  The Yellowstone car was handled via the Wabash to KC, then UP beyond.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, May 26, 2018 9:07 PM

The Santa Fe?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, May 26, 2018 10:13 PM

Deggesty

The Santa Fe?

 

You got it. 

In 1924, the Santa Fe handled a Denver-Jacksonville Pullman, a car line usually handled by the Rock Island between Denver and Kansas City.  

When the RI had the car, it was normally handled by a Chicago-Denver train between Denver and Belleville, Kansas, where it was switched to the Colorado & St. Louis Express/St. Louis & Colorado Express for the trip to Kansas City.  At least one season the car was handled by the Express all the way between Denver and Kansas City. When Santa Fe operated the sleeper, leaving Denver the car was handled on #23 to La Junta, where it was switched to #10, the Scout, for the trip to Kansas City. Westbound, #21, the Missionary, took the car from Kansas City to Newton, where #5 the Colorado Express, handled it to Denver.  East of Kansas City the Pullman was handled by the Kansas City-Florida Special to/from Jacksonville.

I believe this was the only time Santa Fe handled a regularly scheduled Florida Pullman. Why they were involved in handling this sleeper I have no idea - it may had been an experiment of some sort. During this time Santa Fe also handled a Los Angeles-Birmingham Pullman that also ran via the Kansas City-Florida Special.

This information is contained in the second volume of "From the Midwest to Florida by Rail, 1875-1979", a publication that I co-authored and is published by the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society.

Johnny, you get the next question.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, May 27, 2018 8:55 PM

Back to Cincinnati-Jacksonville through sleeper service.

In 1916, there was a through Cincinnati-Jacksonville sleeper that traveled in five trains on its way south and on its way north. It was operated by two roads, one of which utilized trackage rights on two roads, and took two nights and a day to make the journey each way.

Name the roads, including the roads that granted trackage rights, and the stations where the car was moved from one train to another. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:20 PM

Gotta get a 1916 OG...

Cincinnati CNO&TP Southern Spartanburg C&WC Charleston Seaboard Jacksonville.

 

I know there was a Cincinnati-Jacksonville sleeper via Charleston.  This route looks like it could actually have worked.  I don't think Southern completed its takeover of CNO&TP until 1922 or thereabouts, which is why I'm counting it as trackage rights.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 29, 2018 7:22 PM

You're right on the CNO&TP and somewhat right on the Southern. However, rhe car did not go through Charleston (neither did the C&WC).

The C&WC and SAL crossed at Fairfax, S.C.

At that time, Fairfax Harrison was President of the Queen & Crescent as well as the Southern RR.

I did not know of a Cincinnati-Jacksonville sleeper that went through Charleston. I can imagine a really interesting route--Cincinnati-Ashland-Elkhorn City-Spartanburg-Charleston-Jacksonville. 

If the C&WC had been in the routing, the car might have beens switched at Yemassee (junction with the ACL) since the C&WC and ACL had a board chairman in common.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 31, 2018 4:27 PM

In 1916, the Queen and Crescent Route had not been fully absorbed by the Southern System (which was  then a consolidation primarily of the Richmond and Danville and the East Tennessee Virginia and Georgia under the name "Southern Railroad").

So, the two roads have been named. What roads were used by way of trackage rights? Where was the car swirched from one train to another?

Edited to correct spellung; I thought I had proofread it before posting originally.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:32 PM

How about the Atlantic and Yadkin between Greensboro (Southern) and Sanford NC (Seaboard).

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:15 PM

rcdrye

How about the Atlantic and Yadkin between Greensboro (Southern) and Sanford NC (Seaboard).

 

The SAL was not in the route at all; the CNO&TP and Southern were the only roads that operated the train, albeit there were two sections operated under trackage rights. (One of the arrangements was not put into effect until that summer.)

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, June 01, 2018 4:37 PM

Couldn't be as simple as the Georgia Southern & Florida, could it?  The GS&F was still semi-independent, at least in image, in 1918, and shows up as a thin line on the 1921 SR system map.  The other section may have been a bit of the Alabama Great Southern entering Atlanta.  The alternative to the GS&F was ACL south of Jesup, GA to Jacksonville.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, June 01, 2018 4:47 PM

Well, you just named one of the two roads that granted trackage rights, but it was  not the GS&F, which at the time simply shared Mr. Harrison as President (not Chairman) along with the Q&C and the Southern. However, you have the wrong junction for this car (the KC-Florida Special did move off the Southern at Jesup).

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, June 01, 2018 6:45 PM

Well, so far we've eliminatd Charleston.  Since at this point I'm just guessing, I nominate Savannah and Brunswick (which would kill off some time in a long trip...).

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, June 01, 2018 7:29 PM

Brunswick was more or less a dead end--there was no through service. The car did go through Savannah on a through train, with no change of railroad.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, June 01, 2018 7:55 PM

So... from the point of status... Cincinnati, Atlanta, Savannah, Jacksonville with some unknown handoff point between Savannah and Jacksonville?

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, June 01, 2018 8:41 PM

No, it did not go through Atlanta. 

One of the trackage agreements covered about 153 miles; the other one covered about 4 miles; two other Southern trains also used this short distance; one of them ran only to the first division point from the junction, and the other one continued on down to a seaport in South Carolina.

At the time, the car traveled in one name train for 254 miles and in nameless trains for the rest of its run; in later years another name train (named for the northern end of its run), which went from one of the points along the car's way to Jacksonville, ran on appoximately the same schedule, which was afternoon to morning southbound and night to late morning northbound. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, June 02, 2018 8:15 PM

The car went through one state capital on its way, and it passed through a seaport in another state.

It also traversed a dangerous steep grade.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, June 03, 2018 4:30 PM

So.. it went via Saluda to Columbia.  I assume the CNO&TP, and NOT the AGS is the first trackage rights railroad.  Handoff to ACL at Columbia (the Capital of South Carolina) would almost require a route via Charleston, so I'll drop it down to Savannah (a seaport in Georgia) before handing it off (It also could have gone via Augusta).  I'm still missing the second trackage rights route, but I can't find an SR system map between 1894 and 1921 on line.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, June 03, 2018 5:08 PM

Since he Southern Railway and the CNO&TP were not in the same operating system at the time; they had separate listings in the guide.

The ACL handled the car in a Southern train between X and Jacksonville--but Columbia was not the point at which the train left Southern rails. The route was almost a direct line to Savannah (and Savannah was not the point, either).

Do you have maps that show both the ACL and COuthern in SOuth Carolina?

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, June 04, 2018 6:05 AM

If Charleston is excluded, it looks like the Southern and ACL met up at Hardeesville, just north of Savanna.  Otherwise the C&WC creeps back in via Allendale...

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 04, 2018 7:52 AM

Yes, Hardeeville was the junction where the Southern began using trackage rights over the ACL to Jacksonville. 

Now, where was the car switched from one train to another? It traveled in five different trains on its way. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, June 04, 2018 9:38 AM

How about Oakdale and Knoxville, Tenn., Asheville NC (a little layover?) and Columbia SC (Spartanburg SC would also make sense). I know Oakdale isn't the actual junction, but I think it was a division point and a regular spot for switching.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 04, 2018 10:38 AM

From the timetables of the time, judging by the train numbers, the car was switched at Oakdale, Knoxville, Asheville, and Columbia.

I am not certain about the divisions at that time, but, from known divisions in later years, the train moved from one division to another in Spartanburg without a change in number, and remained on one division from Oakdale/Harriman Junction to Spartanburg--with switching moves.. 

As to Oakdale, the public timetables of both roads show no stop at Harriman junction, so I assumed that the change was made at Oakdale--which required that the Southern train move on CNO&TP tracks for about four miles. Of course, after the Southern Railway System came into being, it was all, essentially, one railroad.

In 1956, I made a trip from Chattanooga to Bristol on the Birmingham Special, and we had to go up the CNO&TP because of a derailment at Riceville. Naturally, we had to have pilots --who took us to Oakdale. Leaving Oakdale, we backed to the junction, and then on to Knoxville. I doubt that the Chattanooga-Knoxville crews were qualified on the Oakdale to Knoxville section, even though it was on the Knoxville Division. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, June 05, 2018 4:06 PM

Name the midwestern interurban that was supposed to get Illinois Traction to Chicago - it only touched one of the three cities in its name.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, June 07, 2018 10:06 AM

The line was the Chicago, Ottawa & Peoria, operating between Joliet and Princeton.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:24 PM

The Chicago Ottawa and Peoria was relatively successful as midwest interurbans go, surviving the connecting Aurora Plainfield and Joliet, and the Chicago and Joliet Electric.  Four ex-CO&P cars were tranferred to parent Illinois Terminal, where they served in suburban service out of St. Louis, and as shuttles between the Peoria and East Peoria IT stations for the postwar streamlined IT trains.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 11, 2018 11:57 PM

Looking forward to CSS's question.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, June 15, 2018 10:09 AM

Sorry for the delay.  And now for the question:  A substantial portion of Chicago's elevated railway system was not built over city streets.  Why was this done?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 17, 2018 4:27 AM

Perhaps in steam days the danger of hot cinters falling on people and horses was promulgated?

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Posted by K4sPRR on Sunday, June 17, 2018 11:37 AM

Chicago once had an ordinance that required any building of elevated rail to be done only with the approval of property owners adjacent to the rails of which many initially declined

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, June 17, 2018 2:41 PM

The Union Consolidated Elevated Railway, built over Van Buren Street and intended to provide a connection to the Metropolitan West Side Elevated at Market Street (Wacker Drive) initially requested a franchise all the way from Wabash to Halsted, about double the actual length built, since that part of Van Buren was mostly industrial and an easier section to get frontage signatures.  The section actually built was commercial, and the property owners wanted the line shifted to a different street.  The section between Wabash and Wells remaining today makes up the south edge of the Loop.

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