Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 03, 2017 9:18 AM

The convertable photos in question:

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:57 PM

daveklepper

New Yoek Ontario and Western "Mountanear"

 

The Mountaineer was styled by Otto Kuhler.  No A/C, just some nice paint and a little sheet metal on the observation end, plus a running board panel and a couple of nameplates onthe lone 4-8-2 set up for the train.  Updated in 1938, it ran through WWII, long enough that its last run was powered by an F3 or an FT set.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:41 PM

http://shorelinetrolley.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/4573-ext-small-160x160.jpg

Part of convertable 4573 from the website www.shorelinetrolley.org shows summer conditions, screen replacing window side panels.

Question:  End points of greatest distance possible without gaps over streetcar and inteurban lines.  Ferryboat crossings allowed.

Note that the NYO&W "streamlikner" cars were of wooden construction,

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:51 PM

View of 4573 in the shop:

IMAGE

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 09, 2017 7:16 PM

daveklepper
Question: End points of greatest distance possible without gaps over streetcar and inteurban lines. Ferryboat crossings allowed.

Utica NY - Elkhart Lake WI.   Around 900 rail miles.  Transfer in Chicago required change from CSS&SB to CSL to CRT/CNS&M.   600 volt gap appeared in 1918 (bridged by 1500V CSS&SB) with first rail gaps appearing in 1922 (Cleveland and Erie), with many more appearing even before the depression.

Waterville Maine - Purcellville VA around 675 rail miles with two ferry crossings.

Ferries at Kittery ME-Portsmouth NH and New York City-Newark

 

Adding Waterville ME to Little Falls NY to the Utica to Elkhart Lake distance gets about 1300 rail miles, but 17 miles of New York Central or West Shore steam train was required to bridge the gap.

These were not trips for the faint of heart.  I once figured a trip from Kennebunkport ME to City Hall in New York in 1911, and came up with around $8.50 in fares and 38 hours of "seat time".

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:06 AM

Good work.  Look forward to your question.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:25 AM

I'm not sure that you would have needed Chicago Surface Lines as part of the transfer in Chicago.  When North Shore ran to the South Side, a transfer at 63rd and Dorchester was possible.  In the Loop, Randolph Street Station was only one block from the "L" at Randolph and Wabash.  Besides, in the Loop area, most CSL routes did not extend east of Wabash.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:49 AM

Downtown - Loop area they did not.  12th Street- Roosevelt did and some lines further south of courss.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:59 AM

If one wanted to, one could exit the South Shore at Central Station and use the Roosevelt Road (Avenue? 12th Street?) streetcar to the North Shore's elevated station at that Avenue.  If one wanted to avoid the one-block walk and connect with a train that did not originate at the South Side.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:14 PM

Of course you're right. It's only a block or so from Randolph St (cough - "Millenium") to the (recently closed) Randolph and Wabash L station.  On the other hand, CSS&SB shared the street with streetcars in South Bend and East Chicago, so you could just transfer...

I think the most interesting thing was how short the window was to make some of the trips.  Even with that there are records of a chartered New York State Railways car going from Utica to the Kentucky Derby, with a side trip to Detroit on the way back.  All segments ran from hotel to hotel, so it took quite a few days.  That trip was only possible for about a six year window.

Most of the lines didn't really do interline, they just served the same towns, so connections were often casual at best.  To take a sixty mile trip from Concord NH to Boston MA, for example, took six cars running on the tracks of eight or nine companies, where it was a one-seat ride on the Boston and Maine.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 12, 2017 4:34 PM

A one-block walk in the middle of a Chicago winter can be miserable.  Departing the South Shore train and transferring to a Chicago Surface Lines streetcar at Central Station meant staying indoors at the time this trip was made, since the stop for the streetcar was then within the Central Station train shed.  Then one could board the North Shore train at the Roosevelt Avenue station without a one-block walk and have a better choice of seats possibly than at a Loop Station.  As late as 1948 this is the option I would choose, especially to get the railfan seat on an Electroliner.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 6:51 AM

Time to kick in a new question...  This midwestern interurban, which had steel cars bought new from three different builders, bought used steel cars in the late 1930s from a line that had recently discontinued service.  These cars were even older than the interurban's own, and had another issue that resulted in the decision to set them up as control trailers.  Name the buying and selling railroads.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 10:13 AM

The purchasing railroad was Chicago Aurora & Elgin, and the selling road was the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:00 PM

CA&E bought 5 full coaches and 3 combines from the estate of the abandoned Washington Baltimore and Annapolis.  The cars, built by Cincinnati in 1913, were WB&A's first all-steel cars.  CA&E modified the vestibules for "L" clearance, and removed the 1200 volt motors, retaining the MU controls so the cars could be used as control trailers.  CA&E usually used them in longer trains until the very last couple of years.  One of CA&E's longest trains, "The Cannonball", was only allowed 7 powered cars during the morning rush, so a "sinker" allowed an eight car train.  During WW II, the North Shore leased CA&E equipment on weekends to handle liberty traffic from Great Lakes and Fort Sheridan, which resulted in the cars getting as far as Milwaukee.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 19, 2017 10:22 AM

South Shore's earliest predecessor began operations as a street railway.  What was the name of this predecessor and what was the route of the streetcar operation?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 20, 2017 8:18 AM

Chicago and Indiana Airline RR, E. Chicago to Indiana Harbor

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, October 20, 2017 10:14 AM

You got it.  Take it away, Dave.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 20, 2017 7:08 PM

The C&IAL ran from Hammond to Indiana Harbor, a whopping 3.4 miles.  It was abandoned in the 'teens.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 23, 2017 9:21 AM

So from Hammond to East Chicago, they used another company's tracks?  Or was it just a case of an Iillinois subsidiary of an Indiana company.

What were the first true PCC rapid transit cars and what led to their fairlyl early scrapping at the same time as new PCC rapid transit cars were being built?  Where did they run regularly while they were operated?

The train comoposed of them had a good nickname.  What was it?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 23, 2017 4:23 PM

The Chicago and Indiana Air Line was entirely inside Indiana.  The line was never part of the CLS&SB/CSS&SB main line, always a local line.  Once the Hammond Whiting and East Chicago built a parallel line, the former C&IAL was abandoned.  The C&IAL was not connected at all with the later Chicago and New York Air Line, which ended up at around 13 miles from Goodrum to LaPorte indiana, and briefly was part of the Gary Railways system.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 24, 2017 9:59 AM

Knew that, but there is some indication that their cars did run through to E. Chicago.  How I don't know.   But you should know enough to give a try at answering my question.   The nickname was a pretty one, and reflected an unusual characteristic of the equipmenet, unusual for the property where in ran, under both owners.  Although not unusual elsewhere and not particularly related to its PCC technology.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 24, 2017 7:26 PM

BMT/MTA Bluebirds.  Clark Equipment, which built a very large proportion of PCC trucks, actually built the carbodies as well, the only cars they ever built besides the PCC model B used in various cities as a prototype in the 1930s.  The official name was "Compartment Car".  After the original car was accepted, BMT ordered 50 more just before BMT was taken over by the MTA, which cancelled the order after only five more cars were built.  The prototype had no couplers or MU, the other 5 could operate in multiple.  Each car had three sections riding on four trucks, similar to the later PCC experimentals built for Chicago in 1946 and 1947. Orphans on the MTA roster, they were all retired by 1957.  Dave Klepper should have the best info on where they operated.

CLS&SB had two streetcar lines, the C&IAL, and a line from Gary to Tolleston (now part of Gary), both of which were operated locally, meeting the main line trains at Hammond and Gary respectively.  I think you're thinking of the Hammond Whiting & East Chicago, which ran joint service with Chicago City Railway/Chicago Surface Lines until 1940 to both Hammond and East Chicago.  The CLS&SB main line tracks ended at the state line, with the connecting Kensington and Eastern owned by Illinois Central and leased to CLS&SB/CSS&SB.  The current operator NICTD only recently bought the line from CN.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:00 AM

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:36 AM

Thanks for a pretty thorough answer, and thanks for the photos.  Needless to say, as a younster, both the Bluebird and the Little Zephyr were far and away my favorite subway cars and I wss angry and upset when they were scrapped.

The Zephyr spent most of its life in service on the Franklin Avenue shuttle, and the Bluebird in rush-hour-only service on 14th-Street=Canarsie.  Four of the five mu cars made up the usual train.  It regularly held the 4:55 PM departure from 8th Avenue for Canarsie, the last one in the evening making all stops, the next trains to both Lefferts and Canarsie skipping 1st Avenue to Myrtle, with short-turn trains using B-types making all stops to Myrtle and then changing ends on the middle track just east of that station.

As long as PCCs operated on the streets of Brooklyn, up to middle of 1954, maintenance was not a problem, because most parts were common with the PCC streetcars, and Coney Island shops would just send a work motor to 9th Avenue carhouse for anything needed and not at hand.  Once streetcar service ended, they really became orphans.  There was an attempt to sell them to another property, but they were too wide for Chicago, and Cleveland had already ordered its own "Bluebirds."  Boston, with its vast PCC fleet, could have used them on Cambridge - Dorchester (Red Line), but was not interested.

Tags: BMT Bluebird
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 6:41 PM

Chicago's first one hundred PCC rapid transit married pairs (200 cars) had a physical characteristic and nickname due to something that distinguished them from the other two hundred sixty pairs (520 cars) which contained many components recycled from Pullman and St. Louis-built PCC streetcars.  What was the nickname?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 26, 2017 3:07 AM

Well, they were all popularly called spam-cans because of their overall desing.  But I recall that one group of 6000s had door controls on the outside of the cars like New York's R1 - R9s, with the conductor required to stand outside, and the others had sensible door controls inside, I think in the cabs.  Don't know the other nickname.

Unless spam-cans is the nickname, opening up on the outside?

Or related to the paint-job?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 26, 2017 5:32 PM

The outside door controls in the space between the cars were changed pretty quickly.  The characteristic that gave them their nickname stayed with the cars until they were scrapped.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 27, 2017 1:05 AM

Was it a problem situation, like not enough heat or drafty, or roof leaks?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 27, 2017 9:23 AM

Compare pictures of the 6001-6200 series with any of the later cars.  Look at the doors.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, October 27, 2017 10:22 AM

The cars in this series were called "flat-door Six's" since their doors were flat and did not match the carbody.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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