Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, July 30, 2017 4:54 PM

One route had three roads in it.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, July 31, 2017 11:40 AM

Deggesty

 

In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia.

Name the roads and the junctions.

 

 

The roads would be:

Central of Georgia

Georgia Southern & Florida

Atlantic Coast Line

Southern

 

One route was via Tifton and was used at the time by The Southland and Dixie Flyer:

CofG - Atlanta-Macon

GS&F - Macon-Tifton

ACL - Tifton-Jacksonville

 

The other route was used by SR's Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special:

SR - Atlanta-Jesup

ACL - Jesup-Jacksonville

The GS&F was controlled by SR from 1895.  By 1920 non-SR through trains were re-routed to run via CoG to Albany and ACL to Jacksonville. The GS&F route became the second SR Atlanta-Jacksonville route, running via Valdosta.

 

 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, July 31, 2017 12:03 PM

Aah, ZO, you got it all!

I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time.

In 1916, Fairfax Harrison was the president of the Southern Rwy, the GS&F, the CNO&TP, and the AGS. He was not the president of the NO&NE, the A&V, or the VS&P at that time, though those three roads were part of the Queen and Crescent line.. 

It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:13 AM

Deggesty

Aah, ZO, you got it all!

I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time.

It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.

 
SR, in my opinion, must of had an issue in how to effectively utilize the two Atlanta-Jacksonville routes.  As you mentioned, when the Dixie Flyer and The Southland operated on the GS&F, SR showed those trains in their Macon-Tifton schedules, but without description.  SR had this happen to them by ACL when the former had trains operated by the latter between Jesup and Jacksonville.  ACL's predecessor, the Plant System, did show SR trains in their schedules, but ACL did not (an exception was the Land of the Sky Special and the Western North Carolina Special in the 1920's, when those trains were promoted by both railroads).  SR resorted to showing its Jesup-Jacksonville timings in the briefest of terms in their schedules.
 
By the early 1920's, SR booted the Dixie Flyer and Kansas City-Florida Special from CG&F rails, reserving that route for their own trains.  Eventually, the Royal Palm traversed the CG&F via Valdosta, while the Kansas City-Florida Special ran via Jesup.  Around 1928 through 1933, the trains traded routings.  With the situation you described, the Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special traveling one way via Valdosta and the other way via Jesup, occured around 1940. One final anomaly occured for most of 1947, when both trains were combined between Atlanta and Jacksonville, and operated via Valdosta.  Ulitmately, it may have been an issue of controlling costs.
 
Ill post a question within a few days...

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:33 AM

I always had the impression the the Southern had trackage rights for its trains between Jesup and Jacksonville; the 1917 Guide that have shows no Jesup-Jacksonville trains in the ACL listing.

The same guide shows a Jesup-Jacksonville diner on the Royal Palm--and no diner for breakfast into Jacksonville for the KC-Fla Specia

Was the coal strike in 1947? I know that the Southern had to make adjustments in its passenger train schedules during the coal strike.

Oh, yes--the Atlanta-SE Georgia sleeper I mentioned was Atlanta-Valdosta, on the CG and GS&F. The train ran to Jacksonville, but was coach only south of Valdosta. 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 12:25 PM

Deggesty

I always had the impression the the Southern had trackage rights for its trains between Jesup and Jacksonville; the 1917 Guide that have shows no Jesup-Jacksonville trains in the ACL listing.

- You're right, SR did have trackage rights, but except for the trains I mentioned in the earlier post, ACL did not show SR trains in ACL schedules.

The same guide shows a Jesup-Jacksonville diner on the Royal Palm--and no diner for breakfast into Jacksonville for the KC-Fla Specia

- That was a train-specific issue.

Was the coal strike in 1947? I know that the Southern had to make adjustments in its passenger train schedules during the coal strike.

- The coal strike was in 1946.  I think the issue of merging Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special for most of 1947 was to control costs in light of falling revenues resulting from from declining business, something the entire railroad industry was facing at the time.

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 12:41 PM

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/trumanpapers/psf/longhand/index.php?documentVersion=both&documentid=hst-psf_naid735243-01&pagenumber=2

December 11, 1946

Lewis called a coal strike in the spring of 1946. For no good reason. He called it after agreeing to carry on negotiations without calling it. At least he told John Steelman to tell me there would be no strike. He called one on the old gag that the miners do not work when they have no contract.

After prolonged negotiation I decided to exercise the powers under the second war power act and take over the mines. After they were taken over a contract was negotiated between the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Krug, and John L. Lewis.

The contract was signed in my office on the 5th of May and Mr. Lewis stated for the movies that it was his best contract and would not be broken during the time of Government control of the mines.

Along in September and October 1946 there arose some minor disputes between the Solid Fuels Administrator and Mr. Lewis. Nothing of vital importance—purely details of interpretation of the contract with regard to coal weights on which the new welfare fund is based and some other small details that could have been settled easily by a half hour discussion.

But Mr. Lewis wanted to be sure that the President would be in the most embarrassing position possible for the Congressional elections on Nov. 6. So he served a notice on the first day of November that he would consider his contract at an end on a certain date. Which was, in effect, calling a strike on that date. He called his strike by a subterfuge in order to avoid prosecution under the Smith-Connelly Act. But he'll be prosecuted never the less.

The strike took place as planned by Mr. Lewis. It lasted seventeen days and then Mr. Lewis decided for the first time in his life that he had "over-reached himself." He is a Hitler at heart, a demagogue in action and a traitor in fact. In 1942 he should have been hanged for treason. In Germany under Hitler, his ideal, in Italy under the great castor oil giver, or in Russia now he would have been "eliminated." Only in the greatest country on earth could he operate and have the support of such harmless wonders as Murray and Green, Whitney and Johnson.

There was only one thing for me to do when he called his strike by indirection and that was to take him to a cleaning.

I discussed the situation with the secretaries in the White House at the morning meeting after the fake strike call and warned them that it was a fight to the finish. At the Cabinet meeting on Friday before the election the Attorney General was instructed to take such legal steps as would protect the Government. Discussions were held with all the Cabinet and special meetings were called at which the Solid Fuels Administrator, Mr. Krug, the Secretary of Labor, Mr. Schwellenbach, the Attorney General, Mr. Clark, the Special Counselor to the President, Mr. Clifford, and Special Assistant to the President, Mr. John Steelman, were present.

The instructions were a fight to the finish, by every legal means available, and in the end to open the mines by force if that became necessary.

Mr. Lewis was hauled in to Federal Court, fined no mean sum for contempt. Action was started to enforce the contract and I had prepared an address to the country to be delivered on Sunday evening Dec. 8, anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

Mr. Lewis folded up on Saturday afternoon Dec. 7 at 3 P.M. He is, as all bullies are, as yellow as a dog pound pup. He cannot face the music when the tune is not to his liking. On the front under shell fire he'd crack up. But he can direct the murder, assault and battery goon squads as long as he doesn't have to face them.

He tried to get into communication with me while I was taking a sun treatment at Key West for a cold. He tried to talk to Dr. Steelman; he tried to approach the Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Forrestal; he tried to get in touch with the Secretary of Labor on the night before the fold up. For first time he found no pipe line to the White House. I had a fully loyal team and that team whipped a damned traitor.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, August 04, 2017 4:47 PM

Deggesty

Aah, ZO, you got it all!

I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time.

In 1916, Fairfax Harrison was the president of the Southern Rwy, the GS&F, the CNO&TP, and the AGS. He was not the president of the NO&NE, the A&V, or the VS&P at that time, though those three roads were part of the Queen and Crescent line.. 

It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.

 

 

At the twilight of an era....

In looking for a question to ask, I was going through an issue of the Official Guide from exactly 100 years ago - August 1917.  In reviewing the contents of that issue, I couldn't help think that for the trains and their operators listed in that Guide, it was near the end of an era for the railroad industry - a time when railroads was the primary transportation mode for the nation.  The railroad network still at the peak of total mileage, passenger trains of every type criss-crossed the country on most of that mileage, connecting towns and cities of every size.  America entered WW1 a few months earlier, and the railroad industry was feeling the effects of increased traffic, labor shortages and increasing labor costs, and was trying to cope but with increasing difficulty.  Unfortunately, the era ended when the industry was put under Federal control at the end of 1917, resulting in, among other things, cutbacks in passenger train mileage and services.  After the end of WW1 and the eventual return of the railroads to private hands, the transportation landscape had changed and business as usual (as it was before 1917) no longer held true.

 

As for the question:

The Chicago & Alton operated a train that was established in October 1916 and was named for an endpoint that the railroad didn't reach, but connecting trains did.  Train name and endpoints, please.

 

Bonus question:

Another Chicago & Alton train was also established in October 1916 and operated between a pair of cities that a rival railroad was more known for.  Train name and endpoints, please. 

 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 11:00 AM

ZephyrOverland

 

As for the question:

The Chicago & Alton operated a train that was established in October 1916 and was named for an endpoint that the railroad didn't reach, but connecting trains did.  Train name and endpoints, please.

 

Bonus question:

Another Chicago & Alton train was also established in October 1916 and operated between a pair of cities that a rival railroad was more known for.  Train name and endpoints, please. 

 

It's been quiet for a couple of days now - so its time to stoke the fires...

As for the bonus question - the train I was looking for was called the Creve Coeur Special. This was a Chicago-Peoria train (endpoints that the Rock Island was more known for)  and was initially the late afternoon train out of Chicago. It was a full service train containing "Smoking Car, Reclining Chair Car, Pullman Parlor Car and Cafe Observation Car." In March of 1918 the name was re-applied to the noon Chicago-Peoria train.

 

As for the main question (which is still active), some clues:

- The train was named for a city that it did not service directly, but a number of connecting trains did.

- This train did not handle through cars for connecting trains.

- When established, this train replaced the southbound Prarie State Express, and on March, 1918, the train I am looking for was replaced with the rescheduled Alton Limited.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:04 AM

The Chiago and Alton handled through cars for the Missiouri Pacific (Missouri Pacific - Texas Pacific), the St. Lous - San Francisco (Frisco), and the Misouri Kansas Texas (Katy), even if travelers during this period had to change to the connecting train(s?).  It ay be logical that the train name you are looking for involves a Texas city.  Without OG's of the period, the train was probably named for the most populous Texas city, which would be the destination for most through riders.  Like the PRR calling its second (first being the Spirit of St. Louis) NY - St. Louis train the Penn Texas.  So, Dallas Limited? Dallas Flyer?  Dallas Special?   Or are we talking about through cars to Mexico?  The Alton train itself, like its predicessor and follower, ran Chicago - St. Louis.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:10 PM

daveklepper

The Chiago and Alton handled through cars for the Missiouri Pacific (Missouri Pacific - Texas Pacific), the St. Lous - San Francisco (Frisco), and the Misouri Kansas Texas (Katy), even if travelers during this period had to change to the connecting train(s?).  It ay be logical that the train name you are looking for involves a Texas city.  Without OG's of the period, the train was probably named for the most populous Texas city, which would be the destination for most through riders.  Like the PRR calling its second (first being the Spirit of St. Louis) NY - St. Louis train the Penn Texas.  So, Dallas Limited? Dallas Flyer?  Dallas Special?   Or are we talking about through cars to Mexico?  The Alton train itself, like its predicessor and follower, ran Chicago - St. Louis.

 

You're on the right track, but through cars are not involved with this train.  Dallas is not the city.

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 11:47 AM

Excerpt from Railway Age Gazette, Oct. 27, 1916

https://archive.org/stream/railwayage61newy#page/766/mode/2up

The Chicago & Alton put two new westbound express trains into service on October 16. The San Antonio Limited leaves Chicago at 10:15 a.m. and arrives at St. Louis at 5:59 p.m., where close connections are made with the St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern and the Missouri, Kansas & Texas for points in the Southwest.  The Creve Coeur Special leaves Chicago at 5 p.m. daily and arrives at Peoria at 9:20 p.m.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:15 PM

wanswheel

Excerpt from Railway Age Gazette, Oct. 27, 1916

https://archive.org/stream/railwayage61newy#page/766/mode/2up

The Chicago & Alton put two new westbound express trains into service on October 16. The San Antonio Limited leaves Chicago at 10:15 a.m. and arrives at St. Louis at 5:59 p.m., where close connections are made with the St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern and the Missouri, Kansas & Texas for points in the Southwest.  The Creve Coeur Special leaves Chicago at 5 p.m. daily and arrives at Peoria at 9:20 p.m.

 

Wanswheel, you got the answer.  The southbound-only Chicago-St. Louis San Antonio Limited replaced the slower Prarie State Express and was scheduled to provide close connections to MP and MKT trains to Texas.  Supposedly, naming the train after a Texas destination it did not directly reach may had been a marketing tactic to attract Texas traffic.  At the time, a passenger had the choice of a number of railroads besides the Chicago & Alton to get to St. Louis, including IC, Wabash and C&EI.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the San Antonio Limited had a short life, becoming a victim of a national trend of constant cutbacks in passenger train mileage that began in 1917.  The train was discontinued in Spring 1918, replaced by a rescheduled and slower running Alton Limited.

Wanswheel, you get the next question.

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:16 PM

What train was named for a famous man who was practically born on a railroad?

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:01 AM

James Whitcom Riley?

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:40 AM
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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 2:43 PM

DeWitt Clinton ?- naw, he was a canal guy.

Dan'l Webster ?- naw, he was a frog.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:02 PM

Actually Dan’l Webster the frog! is getting warmer in the pot, if the right alternate conclusion is jumped to.

Remember, it’s somebody born later than James Whitcomb Riley (1849).

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:35 AM

Tom Taber Express...just a guess.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:09 AM

Tom Tabor was well enough known, evidently, but hardly famous if I never heard of him. Thanks for the education.

Excerpt from Block Line, Oct. 1981

Hoboken terminal hosted the trains operated by the Erie and Lackawanna railroads until the two merged on October 17, 1960 to become the Erie- Lackawanna Railroad. Effective that date, all the trains were E-L trains, but even today railroaders refer to trains as being on the "Lackawanna" side or "Erie" side. On the merger date, the president of the DL&W, Perry Shoemaker departed Hoboken in his private car #99 for the last time en-route to the new E-L headquarters in Cleveland. According to Tri-State Charter member Tom Taber, every whistle in the yard blasted loudly as a salute to Mr. Shoemaker and what he did for the railroad, a touching finale he never forgot. A similar experience occurred shortly after Tom Taber's death in May 1975 when the E-L management dedicated train #629, the "Tom Taber Express". This train had the distinction of being the only named train in New Jersey. Upon the first run of this train, a large banner was placed on front of the 629, the fastest electric train operating in New Jersey! As the eight car train departed Hoboken on its maiden run, every whistle on every locomotive, switcher, and electric screamed a loud and long blast to the memory of Tom and the first train named in his memory. It was an experience that touched everyone present in Hoboken that day and one the author will never forget.

http://hoboken.pastperfectonline.com/archive/43DDF139-A299-4F03-9E8F-594326760960

There's an online book by Tom Tabor's son, who is also named Tom.

http://books.northwestern.edu/viewer.html?id=inu:inu-mntb-0005793607-bk

http://tabermuseum.org/about-us/our-history/about-thomas-t-taber

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Posted by wanswheel on Friday, August 18, 2017 11:00 AM

The man the train was named for was still alive, and though long dead now he is still totally famous.

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Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, August 19, 2017 11:40 AM

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 20, 2017 8:21 AM

General Pershing?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:47 AM

If he power car was scrapped and not saved, a real tragedy.  Thanks for the General's biography.

Name the southern city that has had streetcar service since the nineteenth century but once had such service with two different gauges.  Name the city, the two gauges, and which survived and why, and what happened to the streetcars of the guge that did not survive.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 8:50 AM

9908 is at NTM in St. Louis.  It was the only power car that was factory powered with a 567 engine (though others later got them).  EMC considered it a model "AA" similar to MP's modified E6 units.

 

New Orleans had both 5'2 1/2" and 4' 8 1/2" lines.  Up until fairly recently the Carrolton barn used by St. Charles Ave cars had dual-gauge track in the pavement.  All of the standard gauge lines were gone by the time NOPSI took over in 1923.  Some of the cars were sold to other systems, some were re-gauged (and largely used as work cars).

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 24, 2017 4:47 AM

Very pleased that both stainless steel Pershings were saved.  And RC has the answer, or most of it, but why was the broad-gauge chosen and not the standard gauge? Simple answer.

RME
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Posted by RME on Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:34 AM

I suppose to have commonalty with the other lines on the system, considering the substantial investment in seven new cars.   (Didn't we have a thread a few years ago about this?)

Did we not get the ex-Melbourne cars from that line right here in Memphis?  (Our Riverfront line is achingly standard-gauge, being in large part on one of the two ex-IC tracks...)

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 25, 2017 7:10 AM

I think if I remember right most of the standard gauge lines were in the unpaved "neutral ground" and almost all of the broad gauge lines were in the street.  A no brainer in terms of the cost of making everything the same.  NORTA made the same decision with the riverfront line a few years ago.

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