Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:07 PM

The original West End line as a steam railroad was built and inaugurated from the 39th Street Ferry pier to Coney Island by Charles Guenthner, CGS graduate, as the West End. Bath Beach, and Coney Island Railroad.  Much of the RoW became New Utrecht Avenue, which for many years had the West End Streetcar line with West End subway trains on the elevated structure above.  When the Brooklyn United elevated system bought the line frolm Guenthner, they immediately strung trolley wire, built a connection to the Fifth Avenue elevated, and began running gate-car elevated trains with service first to Sand Street and the Fulton Ferry in Brooklyn, then over the Brooklyn Bridge after they took over and electrified the cable Brooklyln Bridge railroad, to Park Row. Manhattan.  After the elevated structure and the Stillwell Avnue terminal were complete, steel subway cars took over with service to Manhattan via the 4th Avenue subway and the Manhattan Bridge.  This remains in effect todoay, except that the B trains run up 6th Avenue instead of Broadway and continue as locals on Central Park West and into The Bronx.

But as traffic grew, elevated cars made a comback, including of course this RoW.  Until post-WWII B-division cars began arriving, after 1948, rush hour steel West End trains were cut back from Coney Island to Bay Parkway, and wood gate-car elevated trains provided the rush hours service between there and Coney Island.  Since these cars had subway-type third rail shoes, they were painted green instead of the usual BMT brown, so avoid being sent into the wrong service or mixed with normal elevated cars.

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 5:41 PM
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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 5:51 PM

April 28, 1929 - First run of Niagara Falls Delxue - cars painted brown and gold.  Locomotive was CASO 8207 

You are correct Wanswheel.

8207 was a Hudson ...this was a Michigan Central assigned number but the railroaders called them CASO Hudson's. There were 30 of them. 

Also would like to add talk of Coney Island totally apropos as it is summer time and what better place than the beach.

I really got a kick out of Dave Klepper informing us of trains running " if it's a sunny day". They must have had better weathermen back then. Never would have thought that from a big big city...something you would expect from small town rural locals  where things are more informal. Great story. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 8:18 PM

What Columbia Grammar School dropout preceded Commodore Vanderbilt as president of the Hudson River Railroad, and where is his statue?

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 11:25 AM

Commodore Vanderbilt’s statue has to be the oldest man-made thing at Grand Central Terminal, originally atop St. Johns Park freight station.  The statue of the subject of this question also has been moved over the years.

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:44 PM

I give up..think I got the guy but cannot find the statue. Found some older postings by you ( Wanswheel) circa 2008 re all of this but the pics have succumbed to the photobucket purge. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:05 PM

Kind of a downer that photobucket. Have to be philosophical, nobody died.

Another hint: He has something in common with Chauncey Depew, for whom is named Depew, NY.

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:42 PM

Surely it is this guy in Hoboken

Nice hint pix.  General site is right there front and center, I think...

Also nice trick hint.  The statue was not so much 'moved' as turned around to face the other way.

Calling him a 'dropout' is a bit unfair.  If your father had died when you were 14 you might have left prep school, too.

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 3:02 PM

So "Daily except Sunday" can be traced to him! No railroad operations on Sundays. 

I thought perhaps it also could be Erastus Corning, was searching that one as well. 

Wonder if Erastus will ever make a comeback as a first name?

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 3:15 PM
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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:47 PM

One problem for the Canadian Pacific that exists persisting even to today is that the CPR never had it's own rails into Chicago from the East, such as London, Toronto and Montreal.  Unlike the CNR with the Grand Trunk Western whose freight and passenger could highball on through the CPR terminated at Windsor/Detroit, using ferry boats and then later the CASO tunnel to get stateside, at which point they really could not write their own ticket. 

However, during the depression years a Class 1 that had a superb Detroit to Chicago main line was in big financial trouble. It was controlled by an even bigger Class 1, its parent at the time. Talks ensued to acquire the Detroit Chicago main but the parent wanted the buyer to acquire the entire system, no piecemeal stuff. 

Ever frugal, the CPR foolishly and short sighted said no. 

What was the railroad with the mainline CPR wanted to purchase and who was its parent. 

Needless to say things would be a different today and historically if CPR had not been so cheap and looked to the future an acquired the whole system.

RME
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Posted by RME on Monday, July 24, 2017 12:02 AM

If I remember right, it was the Wabash, and the parent road at the time was PRR (via W.W. Atterbury)

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, July 24, 2017 12:24 AM

You are correct RME. Can you imagine the historical implications if the CPR threw caution to the wind and acquired the whole Wabash system.

Actually, what is to stop them from spinning off the unwanted portions anyway? Granted they were substantial, but keeping the system intact would have been a heck of a thing for them in a few years down the road...I would like to think they would keep the name Wabash. May have kept steam running as long as the Nickel Plate did in certain locations. 

Implications for Erie, NKP, NYC as well. Then N&W and NS today. Interesting what if scenario. Would like to think they gave GTW/CNR fits. 

CPR threw nickels around like manhole covers, pretty tight fisted. 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, July 24, 2017 1:14 AM

Fussy too...I read an account that during the Crump years he would hold up the typed duplicates ( the secretaries use carbon paper in between 2 sheets to make a duplicate) hold them up to the light and if they did not align perfectly he would make them do it over. Ridiculous really. 

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Posted by RME on Monday, July 24, 2017 1:44 AM

Miningman
Can you imagine the historical implications if the CPR threw caution to the wind and acquired the whole Wabash system.

Perhaps the 'fun' thing would be a version of the 1925 'fifth system' that, instead of butt-ending the DL&W and the Nickel Plate, used the CASO line to Detroit, a better tunnel, and then Wabash to Chicago.  in between more and better Pequest Fills on the east end and PRR-style massive improvement on the west end, you'd have something highly competitive with the 'regular' players in both passenger and freight but serving a wide range (as intended) of very different intermediate places...

To Toronto faster than Cleveland, either way?  Dry run for the Isthmus of Tehuantepec railway with some of the lake traffic?  AND, finally, the right impetus to improve the other systems, instead of ruinous route duplication a la West Shore/South Penn ... for example, we'd get by the late '30s a start on the 9400' tunnel and associated electrification that would bypass the whole compromise that was Horse Shoe...

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, July 24, 2017 12:59 PM

That could still come about in the future if there was the will and a person with vision at the helm..super long shot putting back the missing pieces such as the CASO. Suppose the day of the railroad tycoon is gone, they are all chasing robots and digital everything. 

I think from a strategic point of view, such as some unforeseen national emergency, large ground war, West Coast earthquake from hell, that we are in a far weaker less effective position today then we were during WWII. We are more efficient but I think too skinny. No rails in Newfoundland at all, virtually the entire Maritimes. Not good. 

What would the "likely" name of the tunnel be that should/could have been in lieu of Horseshoe Curve? Nominations? 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, July 24, 2017 8:37 PM

On another thread (concerning quizes) RME said he did not have time to come up with what he considered to be a decent question.

To keep the headscratching going, here is a question concerning overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville.

 

In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia.

Name the roads and the junctions.

I posted this question on the same thread wherein he suggested that someone else come up with a question.

Johnny

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, July 24, 2017 9:56 PM

OK..well Deggesty has the one question out there and SD70M-2 Dude has won the right to ask the other. 

As per the tunnel I nominate the Cassatt Tunnel although I doubt that is what they would have called it...probably a geographic reference. 

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 1:02 AM

Also...rcdrye has offered to referee or oversee the Quiz, so lets start off fresh with that. One question is posted and we are awaiting one.

Not to abandon the quiz or any other forum but I am leaving for 3 + weeks Wednesday am..of course I will check it when possible and keep up but web time will be very limited.

Firelock76- Don't feel shy or "foolish" ,,one thing about getting on into our "Classic years" is the sudden shocking realization that you're now wise enough to realize that your not as smart as you think you were.

Quite the revelation. 

ps-  I get a real kick out of that "Border Security" show with travellers between US and Canada at land crossings and airports. Now why on earth would you need brass knuckles, 12" blade knifes and 5 of them, 3 pistols on you, 2 on your girlfriend, 2 more in the door storage section and long guns out the ying yang plus thousands of rounds of ammo while wearing some kind of gruesome T shirt. 

The war ended in 1814. Our department of d-fence seizes these things, that ones that are not legal and registered, which is almost everything, and walks the remainder over to the USA where you can get them back on your return. Maybe some 'splainin' to do, Our guys always destroy the brass knuckles. Of course the guy with no drivers licence and a borrowed car. Yeah ok, good luck with that. 

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Posted by RME on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 2:53 PM

Miningman
As per the tunnel I nominate the Cassatt Tunnel although I doubt that is what they would have called it...probably a geographic reference.

PRR would probably have used a name comparable to the Atglen & Susquehanna 'low grade' for the line itself, which if I remember the proposed track chart right was only going to be about 9 miles long.  I do not know whether any part of the old line would be preserved (especially with electrification).  By extension with much older PRR tradition, as in New Portage RR, the tunnel might be called New Gallitzin.  Interesting that the North River tunnels were never given a commemorative name.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 10:58 PM

Yes it is astonishing really that the "North River" tunnels were never christened with a name. After all that money, engineering, sacrifice, vision, an astounding accomplishment. Maybe Pennsy was afraid of them actually "holding up" and being successful so as not to be associated with a disaster or a boondoggle thus ridicule, or maybe after all of that effort they were exhausted by the ordeal and just put it off to a later, which never came. Or perhaps they were just being modest, taking a different tack from their rival the brash New York Central. 

Should the replacements eventually get completed I hope for all your sakes they are not named after some feckless politician. Which, of course, is all of them. Good grief. 

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:02 AM

Miningman
Maybe Pennsy was afraid of them actually "holding up" and being successful so as not to be associated with a disaster or a boondoggle thus ridicule ...

Well, you may recall that the tunnels visibly moved with the tide, and for a while it seemed as if they might fail quickly, or fatigue to fail later; in my interpretation of the situation there was really a certain amount of luck in the choice of construction and materials that made the engineering oversight non-critical in the end...

Should the replacements eventually get completed I hope for all your sakes ...]

It's for all our sakes.  Canadians will be wincing at ill-chosen names, too.

[... they are not named after some feckless politician.

Fortunately they already have good default names that I suspect people will remember: the Gateway Tunnels to go with Portal Bridge.  Note that the Empire Connection and that LIRR project into GCT don't have political names, either. 

(Of course I will be striking a small blow for the right by still using NYP or Penn Station instead of "Moynihan" for the station, no matter how it gets revised into the old Post Office building, and people will understand what I mean ....)

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 12:06 PM

December 10, 1968 - Creating a new council on urban affairs, President-elect Richard Nixon introduces the man he's named to head it—Dr. Daniel P. Moynihan. Moynihan is head of the Joint Center for Urban Studies at Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The new council's aims will be to help the President solve the problems of the cities.

September 8, 1970 - President Nixon was guided on a tour of some of the proposed projects in the so-called Pennsylvania Avenue Project by Daniel P. Moynihan, the presidential counselor. Nixon was viewing construction of a reflecting pool in the area of the Capitol.

September 22, 1971 - Delegation member Daniel P. Moynihan and UN Ambassador George Bush.

August 27, 1975 - UN Ambassador Daniel P. Moynihan and President Gerald Ford,

October 28, 1976 - Daniel Patrick Moynihan greets riders on the subway.

February 14, 1999 - Senator John McCain and Sen. Patrick Moynihan on NBC's ''Meet the Press."

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:15 PM

Deggesty

On another thread (concerning quizes) RME said he did not have time to come up with what he considered to be a decent question.

To keep the headscratching going, here is a question concerning overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville.

 

In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia.

Name the roads and the junctions.

I posted this question on the same thread wherein he suggested that someone else come up with a question.

 

Forty years later, the three trains still had overnight Pullman service between Atlanta and Jacksonville--though two had been combined into one--but on different routes. 

I forgot to add a fourth overnight train with Pullman service between Atlanta and Jacksonville which used one of the 1916 routes; it had a through car from a bit farther west than the other trains did--and it was still running over the same route Atlanta-Jacksonville in 1956 as it was using in 1916.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 27, 2017 11:21 AM

Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way.  This was Southern, I believe.  One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS.  I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, July 27, 2017 1:30 PM

daveklepper

Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way.  This was Southern, I believe.  One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS.  I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also.

 

Dave, you are right that the Kansas City-Florida Special was the train I forgot about in the first post. However, even though it did carry an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper in layer years, it did not have one in 1916. The Royal Palm was operated separately from the KC-Fla Special, and it was one of the four. Its route was changed in later years. I think that it was in the fifties that the routes of these two trains was interesting.

At that time, The KC-Fla Special carried a Denver-Jacksonville Pullman.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 28, 2017 6:50 AM

The two railroad route is the Atlantic, Birmingham and Atlanta's joint service with the Atlantic Coast Line via Waycross, Ga.  (The AB&A also had a line to Brunswick that may have been used for Jacksonville service). The AB&A became the AB & Coast in 1926, under ACL control.  Merged into ACL in 1946, this was the route of the later Dixie Route trains.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, July 28, 2017 10:25 AM

No, the AB&A did not enter into it. There was another road which was soon absorbed into a well-known system.

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, July 28, 2017 8:58 PM

Deggesty

 

 
daveklepper

Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way.  This was Southern, I believe.  One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS.  I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also.

 

 

 

Dave, you are right that the Kansas City-Florida Special was the train I forgot about in the first post. However, even though it did carry an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper in layer years, it did not have one in 1916. The Royal Palm was operated separately from the KC-Fla Special, and it was one of the four. Its route was changed in later years. I think that it was in the fifties that the routes of these two trains was interesting.

 

At that time, The KC-Fla Special carried a Denver-Jacksonville Pullman.

 

Dave, I should added that the ACL was one of the roads. Now, how did the trains get to the ACL? 

Johnny

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