Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, March 06, 2017 9:42 PM

Back to Lynchburg. In 1931, the Birmingham Special did carry, between Washington and either Monroe or Lynchburg (no stop shown at Monroe sb; 10 minute stop there nb). These cars were carried between either Monroe or Lynchburg and Chattanooga on a nameless train (nos. 17 & 18)--and this train used the Kemper Street Station, and not the Union Station in Lynchburg. There could have been confusion on the part of passengers as to which station to use, but since the Memphis Special and the Washington-Chattanooga-New Orleans Express (much later, known as the Pelican) also used the Kemper Street statiion, Lynchburgers may well have been in the know. I do not doubt that the crews changed in Monroe and not Lynchburg as was done in later years.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:20 AM

I was in Peachtree last week.  One of my sons lives just over the Alabama line, so it's become a pretty regular destination for us. Many proposals for a new Atlanta station, but nothing real.

It's kind of hard to say in the context of 1920 or so, but Peachtree (also known as Brookwood) is a couple of miles from Terminal Station, even though it is on a main street that did have streetcar service to downtown.  If the train headed west from Peachtree instead of going downtown, as at least some other SRy trains did, then folks getting off the train there can see downtown, as you can today, without being actually there.  My guess is that a connecting local was required to get to Terminal Station.  I doubt that the modern day elevator had a 1920s equivalent.  The stairway to the platform is long.  Baggage was handled on the sidewalk of adjacent Deering Road.

Trains arriving from the east heading to Birmingham would have to head south at the wye just west of Peachtree to go to Terminal Station, then turn on the wye downtown and return to begin their trip west.  All in all that could add quite a bit of time to the train's trip.

Today's MARTA bus route 110 mirrors the Georgia Railway and Power Company route 10 that served Peachtree in the past.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 8:11 AM

rcdrye

I was in Peachtree last week.  One of my sons lives just over the Alabama line, so it's become a pretty regular destination for us. Many proposals for a new Atlanta station, but nothing real.

It's kind of hard to say in the context of 1920 or so, but Peachtree (also known as Brookwood) is a couple of miles from Terminal Station, even though it is on a main street that did have streetcar service to downtown.  If the train headed west from Peachtree instead of going downtown, as at least some other SRy trains did, then folks getting off the train there can see downtown, as you can today, without being actually there.  My guess is that a connecting local was required to get to Terminal Station.  I doubt that the modern day elevator had a 1920s equivalent.  The stairway to the platform is long.  Baggage was handled on the sidewalk of adjacent Deering Road.

Trains arriving from the east heading to Birmingham would have to head south at the wye just west of Peachtree to go to Terminal Station, then turn on the wye downtown and return to begin their trip west.  All in all that could add quite a bit of time to the train's trip.

Today's MARTA bus route 110 mirrors the Georgia Railway and Power Company route 10 that served Peachtree in the past.

 

You have brought in the name by which the people in Atlanta knew the station--Brookwood. Back, more than fifty years ago, when I was in school in Decatur (not at Agnes Scott), there was a story in the Atlanta Constitution about the station. SOme people living in Atlanta were epecting company to arrive on the Birminham Special, and they told him to get off at the Brookwood station. The traveler heard "Peachtree" announced, but never heard "Brookwood," which he was expecting--so he went on, probably to Austell, where he was able to take a train to the Atlanta Terminal Station. He eventually was united with his hosts.

The article made no mention, as I recall, of local service between the two stations.

You answered two out of three and, since the third point was extremely obscure, you have the honor of proposing another question .

At one time, the Southerner did not stop at Peachtree, but only at the Terminal. Southbound, it headed in and was backed out to the main line; northbound, it backed in from the main line and headed out--until in 1968 and then the coach seats were turned in Atlanta in both directions of travel, and the engine was run around the train. The Kansas City-Florida Special. of course, ran through in both directions, using the H line between Austell and Jesup.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 8:50 AM

In January 1960 there were six trains carrying through sleeping cars from Chicago to Seattle.  Sections were available on all but two of the trains.  Name the two trains that were private room only.  Extra points for naming all six trains!

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 9:39 AM

All-room:  Empire Builder and City of Portland.   Other trains, Western Star, North Coast Limited, Mainstreeter, Olympian Hiawatha.    I believe the Portland Rose had been dropped by then.  If it ever had a through sleeper to Seattle.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 11:11 AM

Neither of them.  Both the CofP and Builder had open sections, the CofP's cars were only a few years old, part of UP's last purchase of sleeping cars in 1956.  The Portland Rose lasted until Amtrak, but was mainly a mail-and-express operation between Kansas City, Denver and Portland.  By 1960 it no longer carried Chicago sleepers.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:05 PM

So, I got all six trains right.   But did the CoP through sleeper to Seatrtle have open sections?

You are leaving me with four other trains to choose from.  I first presumed that the Olympian Hiaswatha might be one.

But that doesn't make sense because it should compete with the Empire Builder, and that requires sections.   Of course what you meant by all-room was for the sleeping accomodations onliy.  All these trains carried coaches, although I do not believe the City of Portland had a thoough coach to seattle, only a sleeper.

So maybe it is the two secondary trains that had no sections, the Mainstreeter and the Western Star?

At the time, were not they both combined with the Blackhawk between St. Paul and Chhicago?   And I do not remember sectdions on the Blackhawk.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:09 PM

Olympian Hiawaha carried a 14 section Touralux sleeper.  The Blackhawk carried a CB&Q 6 sec 6 rmt 4 DBR car between Chicago and Minneapolis.  I'm only concerned here about through service to Seattle.  The Western Star carried sections in 7-4-3-1 cars (7dup rmt, 4 sec, 3 DBr, 1 Cpt)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:59 PM

When the space requested on the Blackhawk was sold out and available on either the Mainstreeter or the Western Star, passengers between the Twin Cities and Chicago would be given that space instead.   Presumably, this was space already sold between the Twin Cities and points further west.

So you have left me with the Minstreeter and the North Coast Limited.   Of course, the NP had sleepercoaches for economy sleeping and did not need sections.  Should have figured that ouit in the first place!  The sleepercoaches were in a pool with the Burlington's and would often show up on the DZ running to Colorado Springs, so they saw three railroads, including the D&RGW.

The sleepercoaches were never painted the two-tone-green, white-stripe NP colors but remained stainless steel exposed like the Burlington's.

I must give you the privilege of asking another question if you wish to do so.

Darn it.  I rode a sleepercoach on the Mainstreeter. too!    Billings -  Grand Forks

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 4:05 PM

NP was the only railroad of the four offering Chicago-Seattle cars that had all-room trains.  GN did rebuild some of their 7-4-3-1 cars to 7 DupRmt-6DBR-1Cpt cars, but still carried sections at least in the summer up to the late 1960s.  I'll try to post another question sometime tomorrow.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:17 AM

Again, you mean all-room sleeping-car service, not all-room trains.  All these trains carried coaches.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:22 AM

For a period before World War I, it was possible to cross the country (except for 1.6 miles in Chicago) on cars painted orange and maroon.  Another railroad in the eastern part of the country also adopted orange and maroon during this period, and parallelled but didn't quite connect with the others to allow a cross country trek.  Name the connecting railroads, and the one that didn't quite make it.

All but one of the railroads went to other color schemes after WWI.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:31 PM

rcdrye

For a period before World War I, it was possible to cross the country (except for 1.6 miles in Chicago) on cars painted orange and maroon.  Another railroad in the eastern part of the country also adopted orange and maroon during this period, and parallelled but didn't quite connect with the others to allow a cross country trek.  Name the connecting railroads, and the one that didn't quite make it.

All but one of the railroads went to other color schemes after WWI.

 

Hmm... 1.6 miles.  That would be the distance between Union Station and IC's Central Station.  Well, from Union Station west you would take Milwaukee Road's Olympian or Columbian with their orange and maroon equipment.  From the east, the C&O also had orange and maroon equipment, but through cars to Chicago could be handled via its own C&O of Indiana subsidiary or Big Four, with both lines handling trains to IC's Central Station.  I believe there was at least through Washington-Chicago Pullman service via C&O-Indiana at this time.

Technically, the C&O of Indiana operated only to Hammond.  To get to Chicago, through trains most likely took the Indiana Harbor Belt and IC to get to Central Station.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:55 PM

So you have the transcontinental route.  I didn't specify through cars, so a change at Gordonsville or Charlottesville from the tidewater is acceptable.  C&O of Indiana ran over the Nickel Plate's connection to the IC lakefront line, used by NKP to get to their freighthouse until the N&W merger  (NKP also serviced C&OofI freight engines at their 95th st roundhouse).  The cutback to Hammond for passenger trains was after WWI.  So what was the parallel line (to the C&O, since I already gave that away)?  In later years less vividly painted cars from this line ran in joint service on the C&O, though not as far as Chicago.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 10, 2017 7:37 AM

Sometimes I find things after I make posts...  At the time C&O of Indiana carried through C&O cars (and orange paint) C&OofI was using Grand Central, coming off the C&WI onto B&OCT's passenger line at Pullman Junction.  C&O switched to Central Station in 1923, using a connector between the C&WI and the parallelling NKP that was removed some time after C&O service was cut back to Hammond in the 1930s.

C&OofI's use of the C&WI (as a tenant) resulted from the C&O sharing ownership with the Erie from Griffith IN to State Line.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 13, 2017 4:17 PM

The other line I was looking for was the Virginian, which used orange and maroon on its wooden equipment, but got Pullman green during USRA operation.  In the 1920s it ran some through equipment with the C&O, before retracting to a coach and RPO train each on the Norfolk-Roanoke and Roanoke-Charleston runs.

ZO, you are up!

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, March 18, 2017 8:10 AM

rcdrye

ZO, you are up!

 

At the sunset of the 19th Century, SP fielded a pair of short-lived trains whose individual names evoked destinations to which the railroad could never gain access to, at least as an all-rail route.  They were primarily secondary trains, but did carry through sleepers.

The names and endpoints, please.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 19, 2017 2:48 PM

Montezuma Special New Orleans-Mexico City (via Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras).

Atlantic Limited (Oakland-Denver) through cars to St. Louis.

The Montezuma Special was very short lived, the Atlantic Limited was an on-and-off train (usually 9 and 10, numbers later used on the City of St. Louis) that appeared as late as 1922.  SPdeM never quite got to Mexico City, and while New Orleans and Houston could be construed as the Atlantic, SP really needed its Morgan Line steamships to get to the "real" Atlantic.

The St. Louis Limited (21 and 22) also names a destination SP didn't reach until the 1920s, and then only via Cotton Belt.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, March 19, 2017 10:04 PM

rcdrye

Montezuma Special New Orleans-Mexico City (via Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras).

Atlantic Limited (Oakland-Denver) through cars to St. Louis.

The Montezuma Special was very short lived, the Atlantic Limited was an on-and-off train (usually 9 and 10, numbers later used on the City of St. Louis) that appeared as late as 1922.  SPdeM never quite got to Mexico City, and while New Orleans and Houston could be construed as the Atlantic, SP really needed its Morgan Line steamships to get to the "real" Atlantic.

The St. Louis Limited (21 and 22) also names a destination SP didn't reach until the 1920s, and then only via Cotton Belt.

 

Rcdrye, you got the right idea but not the trains I'm looking for.  The time period for the sought trains are the end of the 19th Century.  The desired names refer to land masses the SP's trains could not physically reach on an all-rail route.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 4:40 AM

Well, obviously one ormore must have been called the Orient or Asian Express or Limited, or the Far East Express or Limited, or the Hawaiian or Phillipine?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:43 AM

daveklepper

Well, obviously one ormore must have been called the Orient or Asian Express or Limited, or the Far East Express or Limited, or the Hawaiian or Phillipine?

 

You're on the right track, but you don't have the right name yet.

Another hint: for the other name, look in the opposite direction.

And don't forget the endpoints.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:46 AM

The Europe and Asia Express and the Asia and Europe Express?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:28 PM

daveklepper

The Europe and Asia Express and the Asia and Europe Express?

 

Your last couple of submissions have the right geographic areas - but I'm waiting for the correct train names and endpoints.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:59 PM

The trains ran between San Fracisco and New Orleans, I believe.  If it is not "Asia and Europe," then it must be two "land masses."  Are they countries or cities

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:40 PM

daveklepper

The trains ran between San Fracisco and New Orleans, I believe.  If it is not "Asia and Europe," then it must be two "land masses."  Are they countries or cities

 

Only one of the desitnations you mention is correct.  Also, I never mentioned that the two land masses you mentioned are incorrect.  You have some of the pieces.  

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:17 AM

Aha!   The Orient and Occident, and the Occident and Orient.

Was the train or its equipment through-routed with another railroad?   Then the SP portion could be as little as SF-Ogden, SF-Tucumcari.  Or was it LA-NO?

I suppse the name was dropped pretty quickly when it was pointed out that accident and Occident sounded similar, and railway mishaps were much more frequent than now.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 4:37 PM

daveklepper

Aha!   The Orient and Occident, and the Occident and Orient.

Was the train or its equipment through-routed with another railroad?   Then the SP portion could be as little as SF-Ogden, SF-Tucumcari.  Or was it LA-NO?

I suppse the name was dropped pretty quickly when it was pointed out that accident and Occident sounded similar, and railway mishaps were much more frequent than now.

 

At this point you mentioned the trains routing: San Francisco-Ogden.  As I mentioned in the initial asking of this question, there were through cars, but this is not a factor.

Occident is not a factor in this question either.  A form of the word Orient is used in one of the names,  but you also need the name of the train going in the other direction.  

Now if you will excuse me, I need to post a letter.....  

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:59 AM

You indicated that the Asian and European land masses are correct.  The Orient is one other name for the Asian land mass.  The Occident is another name for the European land mass.  Are you asking me to come up with a third name for the European land mass?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 23, 2017 7:52 AM

Sometimes Continental is used just to refer to Europe, although obviously Cadadian National had other ideas!  So may be the eastbound, SF to Ogden had Continental in its name. 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, March 23, 2017 9:46 AM

daveklepper

Sometimes Continental is used just to refer to Europe, although obviously Cadadian National had other ideas!  So may be the eastbound, SF to Ogden had Continental in its name. 

 

There was an Overland Route train named the Continental Limited, but that is not the train I was looking for.

At this point I will close out this question.  The answer I was looking for was:

Oriental Mail - Ogden-San Francisco

European Mail - San Francisco-Ogden

These two trains appeared around mid-1898 as the secondary set of Overland Route trains; at this time the primary trains were #1 & 2, Atlantic Express and Pacific Express.

By mid-1899 the European Mail and Pacific Express were replaced with the Chicago-San Francisco Special and by the following year the only named trains on the SP portion of the Overland Route was #1 and 2, the Overland Limited.

Dave, since you had some of the pieces, go ahead and ask the next question.

 

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