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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:22 AM

The Logan Square "L" only lost a few feet at the Logan Square end as part of the ramp to reach the new tunnel required demolishing some of the structure.  The station house was also demolished at the same time.  The Milwaukee Avenue "L" remains part of today's Blue line.

I'll post something later today after I fact check...

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 1:29 PM

Carrected  Again.    But now that my memory is corrected by you, I think I remember the subway section, the tunnel as you call it, as noisy for passengers, even more than the Dearborn St. Subway, which my memory says is quite noisy, unless some remedial action has been taken. 

 

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:39 PM

More:  I had remembered the Milwaukee Avenue Elevated, but put that to my Summer 1952 visit (age 20, working at EMD, La Grange).  Regarding what was removed for the extension to Jefferson Park, I recall a small elevated yard at Logan Square and am not sure it was still there when using the line in 1970 and later.  Is it still there?  Was it removed at the time of the extension, or when?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 7:29 AM

The yard and station at Logan Square were removed at the time the subway ramp went into service.  The small shop there was mostly replaced by an expanded shop at Desplaines Ave. on the Congress line.  There was a cramped inspection shop in the tiny yard at Jefferson Park in the Kennedy median.

So...  This very busy switching railroad, part of a much larger system,  owned two segments of rapid transit line, including one on el structure, but never used them for its own purposes.  It would have had a hard time doing so, since it didn't own  the stations, any cars, power connections or even the third rail.  Name the railroad under any of its names, along with the rapid transit lines.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 7:53 AM

Obvioiusly South Broolklyn, which at one time did actually own parts of all four of the rapid transit routes running into Coney Island.  The only one of the four that it never did use for any purpose was the Brighton line, which includes the elevated structure from Sheepshead Bay to Stillwell Avenue upper level Coney Island, the embankment, Avenue H - Sheepshead Bay, and the cut with overpasses so wide and including stations at one or more locations to be called tunnels, Avenue H - Prospect Park.  Possibly the current Franklin Shuttle, which at one time was the main route of Brighton via Fulton El., Brooklyn Br.

I'll be more specific with a second posting if I have the opportunity.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:23 AM

South Brooklyn was not part of a larger railroad system. This is not in New York.  Also SBK owned the things that this railroad did not own.

The switching railroad was heavily associated with one particular line of business, and was at one time owned by the property it served.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:25 AM

From Wik:

"In June 1922, the South Brooklyn Railway bought much of the LIRR-owned Prospect Park & Coney Island Railroad. By 1923, the Prospect Park & Coney Island Railroad and the New York & Coney Island Railroad were merged into the South Brooklyn Railway. The BRT filed bankruptcy that year and was reorganized into the Brooklyn–Manhattan Transit Corporation, which still operated the South Brooklyn Railway."

This would include the Franklin Shuttle.  But South Brooklyn trains never used the Brighton line after owning the line, only before to deliver material for its construction.

Sea Beach (N) had three wire-equipped freight sidings on the north side of the 4-track cut.  West End (D) was used only occasionlly south of 9th Avenue since mosr movements were via the street Gravesend Avenue, then Mcdonald Avemue tracks.  The tracks used by the D between 9th Avenue and the portal at 5th Avenue for the connection to the 4th Avenue subway were used daily and are still used.  Much earlier this had South Brooklyn ownership. And movements via the D New Utrecht Ave. West End elevated have now replaced movements movements via the paved-over tracks on McDonald Ave. (formerly Gravesend Ave).  Sporadic movements by South Brooklyn on the Culver (F) elevated structure did occur, but were and are restricted to south of Avenue X after the 1949 changes at Ditmas Avenue, breaking the simple connection to 9th Avenue.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:32 AM

And this railroad never operated its own equipment on the rapid transit lines.  Both rapid transit lines are gone, and the switching railroad's tracks are far less active than they used to be.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 9:41 AM

Chicago and Stock Yards was the name of the Switching Railroad, the Chicago Rapd Trsnsit and then CTA the operators, the Stock Yards and Kenwood branches, connecting with the Southside Elevated.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:28 AM

The switching railroad was the Chicago Junction/Chicago River & Indiana, owned by New York Central.  The rapid transit lines sharing the right-of-way were the Stockyards and Kenwood branches of South Side Rapid Transit/Chicago Rapid Transit/Chicago Transit Authority.  Both branches connected with the main line at the Indiana Avenue station.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:47 AM

Happy to read CSS's questiom.   Also:

When was the elevated section on Paulina between Lake and Milwaukee ended as a service connection, and the Paulina tracks from Congress redirect to join Lake instead of crossing over it?  And is the ramp east of Paulina that  was used by Douglass before Pink Line operation now a similar service connection?
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 12:04 PM

The section on Paulina north of Lake Street was removed in 1968, except for the truss bridge over the C&NW and Milwaukee, still in use by Metra as a signal bridge.  The remainder of the Paulina Connector was reduced to single track connections at each end sometime in the 1980s.  The complete rebuild for today's Pink Line uses the same ramp location used by Douglas Park trains from 1954 to 1958 (the through Logan Square route was a little west of the ramp, since it crossed over Lake Street at the sight of the former Lake Street Transfer station.

The Union Stock Yards & Terminal became the Chicago River and Indiana Railroad.  The rapid transit lines were built by CR&I through a subsidiary (Chicago River & Indiana Railway).  The corporate history of the company is pretty fascinating.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 3:55 PM

Although the structure Lake - Milwaukee on Paulinara was not removerd until 1968, the tracks were out-of-service from 1954?

And the status ot ramp in the Congress median east of Paulina connecting Congress and Douglass?

And is Chicago and Indiana Railway independent or owned by CSX or NS or both?

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 1, 2020 10:08 AM

The ramp at Congress and Paulina is still in place and probably serves the same function as the Paulina connector did in the past, it serves to provide a connection between the Blue Line and the rest of the system.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 1, 2020 10:17 AM

'thanks and my question concerning Chicago & Indiana's independence?

And your new question?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 1, 2020 7:29 PM

What's left of the CR&I is an NS industrial track.  Not much in the former stock yards, cut back on the east end.  What little there is is part of Illinois' high speed rail plan as a way to get from Union Station to Metra's Rock Island District.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 2, 2020 1:26 AM

thanks

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 4, 2020 3:38 AM

RC, pssibly Overmd is waiting for you to ask him  to ask the next question?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, October 4, 2020 7:37 AM

I thought I had.  Overmod?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 4, 2020 8:20 AM

Tisn't my question; I think it's up to CSSHEGEWISCH.  I certainly didn't answer the active question about Chicago River & Indiana! Laugh

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 4, 2020 8:36 AM

RC asked the question:

Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 7:29 AM

The yard and station at Logan Square were removed at the time the subway ramp went into service.  The small shop there was mostly replaced by an expanded shop at Desplaines Ave. on the Congress line.  There was a cramped inspection shop in the tiny yard at Jefferson Park in the Kennedy median.

So...  This very busy switching railroad, part of a much larger system,  owned two segments of rapid transit line, including one on el structure, but never used them for its own purposes.  It would have had a hard time doing so, since it didn't own  the stations, any cars, power connections or even the third rail.  Name the railroad under any of its names, along with the rapid transit lines.

And, Overmod, you answered it completely, after I gave only a partial answer.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 7:12 AM

Overmod, waiting for your question

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:36 AM

It's not my question!  I didn't answer a thing relevant to it!  I'm still not quite sure where half of the stuff discussed is located!

The correct answer was NOT the Congress Street expressway line, as the argument was made that the original Hollywood Freeway Cahuenga Pass line wasn't really 'transit' at the scale a freeway median line would be expected to be conducted.  The trolley line was pre-existing over Cahuenga Pass past the Hollywood Bowl, and was no more 'put in the median by design' than the residual Lackawanna track around Garret Mountain would have been retained in the Rt. 80 construction as a high-speed railroad line.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 10:45 AM

Sorry, RC had the complete answer, and I hope he can pose a good question soon.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 15, 2020 12:04 PM

If it will help unstick things...

This railroad was acquired by its parent because one of the principle stockholders (by marriage) was trying to become the governor of the railroad's small home state,  The parent cast it off after the Panama Canal Act required the railroad to disband its shipping company.

For a freebie, he never did get to be governor, but his wife's influence is still felt in the small state...

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 16, 2020 2:23 AM

Vermont, Rutland, and New York Central

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 16, 2020 7:33 PM

Rutland it is.  William Seward Webb was a doctor who married ElizaVanderbilt.  Tagged by his father-in-law William H. Vanderbilt to run the Wagner Palace Car Company (after Webster Wagner was killed in one of his own cars), Webb tried to use the presidency of the Rutland as a springboard to becoming Governor of Vermont (not so farfetched an idea as at least two Vermont Central presidents became Governor in the 19th century).  New York Central invested a fair amount in the Rutland, and Rutland steam locomotives mirrored NYC designs through the 1920s. The Webb's farm on Shelburne Point was one of several model farms in Vermont in the period. Webb's daughter-in-law Electra Havemayer Webb founded the Shelburne Museum along the Rutland south of Burlington, an institution still with us today.

Vermont Governors J. Gregory Smith(1863-1865) and Edward C. Smith (1898-1900) were father and son, president of the Vermont Central and Central Vermont, respectively.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 17, 2020 11:59 AM

All known differences between the 5200 and up New Yoyk Central System Hudsns and  the 600s operated on the Boston and Albany, please.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 17, 2020 1:16 PM

There are so many.

Alco vs Lima construction (for half of them anyway ... with sagging cab...Embarrassed

Black vs. green paint, at least early on.  I almost forgot the B&A white face...

Tender was different ALTHOUGH I believe 5200 was built and initially tested with an eight-wheel tender.  Later at least some J2s would get Hudson 12-wheel tenders, I think as Hudsons got PT centipedes...  No 'New York Central' lettering on proud Bostonian tenders...

Lower drivers on the B&A engines.  Also Coffin FWH and that Big. Square. sand dome.  B&A engines built with 240psi boiler pressure, but I believe reduced to parity with 5200  (225psi) later.

No room for booster exhaust ahead of the stack on 5200, but the 600s had it there.

Trick question: 5200 had Walschaerts valve gear; all the 600s as I recall were Baker like the rest of the J1s.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 18, 2020 3:45 AM

You obviously have the answer, but your highlighting the exceptioms leaves somre cofusion, which you can  clear-up easily:

Tenders for as-delivered 600s Werer there only eight 600-607?) compared with J1s 5201 and up as delivered?

As far as Iremember, the 600s kept their original tenders while on the B&A.

And during WWII, a  few Mowhaks lost their tenders, replaced with ones similar to those delivered with the 600s for their use on the B&A.

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