Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, June 4, 2020 7:38 AM

And the E-8s operated over the B&M on the Allouette and occasinally the Red Wing to Boston in pool with B&M's E-7s and one E-8.

A pre-WWII train was considered and marketed by its launching railroad as a streamliner.  Its power (defnitely changed en-routed) could definitely be considered streamlined, and it had stainless steel fluted coaches and diner.  Possibly obs-lounge but unsure of that in my memory, since I rode only coach when I  rode it.  But until several years after WWII its sleepers were standard Pullmans with sides painted silver to match the stainless steel of the coaches.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, June 4, 2020 11:18 AM

Damn if Kalmbach didn't just have me report abuse with an answer to this question.  I haven't seen that particular disaster before.  Hopefully it means they are making 'progress' towards the Brave New User Experience (let's have a contest to design the best acronym for it, perhaps starting with a suitable initial jam and fitting a suitable 'backronym' name for the "servicing"...

Anyway, this fits Southern Railway (the full shadow-lined fake fluting coming only in 1949), probably the Tennessean, but it might be the 1940 CB&Q-C&S/FW&D Texas Zephyr (e.g. Lariat Range/Crest) if you overlook the power change...

Did the restyled Southerner (which had a different kind of 'streamlined power change' north of Washington) use these silver-painted Pullmans the same way?

 

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, June 4, 2020 1:05 PM

 ?? Can you clarify? 

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, June 4, 2020 2:04 PM

Overmod

Damn if Kalmbach didn't just have me report abuse with an answer to this question.  I haven't seen that particular disaster before.  Hopefully it means they are making 'progress' towards the Brave New User Experience (let's have a contest to design the best acronym for it, perhaps starting with a suitable initial jam and fitting a suitable 'backronym' name for the "servicing"...

Anyway, this fits Southern Railway (the full shadow-lined fake fluting coming only in 1949), probably the Tennessean, but it might be the 1940 Texas Zephyr (e.g. Lariat Ridge) if you overlook the power change...

Did the restyled Southerner (which had a different kind of 'streamlined power change' north of Washington) use these silver-painted Pullmans the same way?

 

 

So far as I know, the Southerner, until after the fifties, used only the fluted side cars. I do remeber seeing, in the fifties a car with the imitation flutes painted on, but I do not recall for certain that it was a coach; I do know that it was on train in Charlotte at a decent morning time, so it was not one that was ordinariy equipped with stainless steel cars. 

I did see, in Bristol, heavyweight sleepers on the Tennessean. And there was no attempt to disguise them as lightweights.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, June 5, 2020 5:50 AM

Overmod, you got the answer with the Tennesean.  The Southener was inaugurated as an all-coach Budd strealiner, and only got sleepers when lightweights came on-line.  As an all-coach lightweight, one E6 was the power.  Then came the Tennesean, with an E6-Aunit and E6-B, Washington - Monroe, lightweight Budd coaches and diner, and silver-painted heavywieght sleepers.  Certainly had a N&W J Monroe - Bristol, but unsure of the power west of Bristol. 

I believe for a while it may have used Alco DL-109s

Just think, three changes of power between New York (thru sleepers) and Memphis, as many as the Montrealer-Washingtonian.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, June 5, 2020 5:51 AM

Looking forward to Overmod's question

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, June 5, 2020 10:44 AM

daveklepper

Overmod, you got the answer with the Tennesean.  The Southener was inaugurated as an all-coach Budd strealiner, and only got sleepers when lightweights came on-line.  As an all-coach lightweight, one E6 was the power.  Then came the Tennesean, with an E6-Aunit and E6-B, Washington - Monroe, lightweight Budd coaches and diner, and silver-painted heavywieght sleepers.  Certainly had a N&W J Monroe - Bristol, but unsure of the power west of Bristol. 

I believe for a while it may have used Alco DL-109s

Just think, three changes of power between New York (thru sleepers) and Memphis, as many as the Montrealer-Washingtonian.

 

Yes, Dave, the Southern used Alco engines between Bristol and Memphis as long as the N&W used its J's on the Southern trains. I am not certain, but I believe that the day train between Memphis and Chattanooga also used Alcos (giving them a little extra usage--come in to Memphis in the morning. turn and go to Chattanooga, spend the night there, go back to Memphis, turn and go to Bristol). Once the engines began running through between Washington and the various endpoints (Memphis, Birmingham, and New Orleans), only EMD engines were used.

Incidentally, the 1941 coaches were the usual equipment, but I did ride in an N&W coach on this train once.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, June 5, 2020 2:59 PM

If I recall correctly, the 'DL-109s' (which I think pioneered that funky Otto Kuhler reverse-colors-on-the-B-units scheme seen in the E-unit picture) and later the PAs were standard power across to Memphis for as long as they ran.  Irritatingly of course long before I got there...

Everyone here is familiar with N&W completely replacing a functional electrification with steam.  Name another railroad where a highly satisfactory freight electrification was completely replaced with steam power, by intent and not accident.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, June 6, 2020 10:12 AM

I will say that it was the short electrification with the concrete catenary supports on Detroit, Toledo & Ironton.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, June 6, 2020 11:29 AM

That's not the one I was thinking of ... i have the impression Ford dropped the electrification because it was either not sufficiently effective or there was no developing market for his locomotives the way there was for his airplanes.

You are certainly in the right part of the world, though.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:02 AM

I thihk that when CN installed its "Two Mountains" Montreal tunnel and northern suburba electrification, they also electrified some freight service in the area, but then reverted to steam for all freigiht to use all the avaiable box-cab electrics on expansion of the suburban passenger service.

And possibly something similar happened with the Montreal and Southern Counties interurban sharing CN tracks on the Bridge and South Shore.

As wartime traffic increased, the use of DD-1s on LIRR freight was replaced by steam usually H-8 Consolidations.   DD-1s continued in Penn Station - Jamaica service nn Montauk, Port Jefferson, and Oyster Bay passenger trains, as well as coal hopper-car trains Penn Station - Jamaica and return only, the only time freight ran through Penn Station.  All other LIRR reverted to steam and stayed that way unitl diesels, with coal going back to car float after WWII.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:15 AM

The DL&W also electrified some freight in the Hoboken area in connection with their suburban operations, but went back to steam for frieght.  The IC in the Chicago area, but this may have lasted until early diesel switchers and/or road-switchers were available.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:20 AM

Niagra Junction - pure freight reverted to steam.

After WWII, run-through NYCentral steam took over.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:28 AM

I was going to go with the DL&W myself.  DL&W's units were actually tri-power, with 300 HP Ingersoll-Rand diesels and batteries in addition to the 3000 volt pantograph. The IC's freight electrification of Congress Yard in Chicago as far as the IC's 26th Street engine terminal was replaced by 1940 by various EMD transfer engines, including early cow/calfs.  IC's 85-ton class E motors went to server for a couple more decades on the South Shore.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:20 AM

Two other cases, similar:  (1)  The Capitol Transit Potomic Edison coal delivery spur off the B&O main, possubly before 1935  also used for B&O - BW&A interchange, taken over by B&O when the Benning (Seat Pleasant and Kennilworth) streetcar went bus around 1954, who used an 0-6-0 for while before a diesel took over. (2) the DL&W's isolated Brooklyn freight terminal, adjacent to the Brooklyn Navy Yard. served only by car-float, with one electric locomotive and a 600V  dc feed from a nearby BMT-B&QT streetcar line, to steam when the streetcar went bus, closed shortly afterward.  I think they borrowed a nearby Brooklyln Eastern District Terminal tank-engine switcher but am not sure.

Oh yes also, B&O had a small Baltimore dock electrification, all on-street, but that was replaced by a rubber-tyred "mover" with a railroad coupler to move one or two freightcars a a time.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:18 PM

Yes, Mr. Klepper got it.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:40 PM
  • Keep in mind that the tri-powers were not really 'electrics' or even 'oil-electrics' as we normally think of them.  They were straight battery locomotives in terms of traction power, with both the outside electric power and the engine-generated power used only to charge the batteries.  This was nifty when needing to switch into warehouses or negotiate complicated trackage too expensive to wire or convoluted to third-rail, or run or dwell in neighborhoods that did not tolerate exhaust... but it did severely limit train handling, both in terms of typical battery limitations and in the weight of all the cells.

I'm a little surprised that Tesla hasn't dusted this idea off to go with their electric-truck division, as they have essentially solved most of the issues with flat switching that kept the railroad-industry-originated battery and hybrid designs relatively clueless.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, June 7, 2020 4:15 PM

Overmod

I'm a little surprised that Tesla hasn't dusted this idea off to go with their electric-truck division, as they have essentially solved most of the issues with flat switching that kept the railroad-industry-originated battery and hybrid designs relatively clueless.

Musk seems to think that his electric self-driving trucks will put railroads out of business, so I suspect he is not exactly eager to enter the locomotive business.

I wonder who GE/Wabtec got the batteries for their prototype unit(s) from?

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, June 7, 2020 4:54 PM

The contemporary battery-electrics built for the North Shore were capable of running as straight electrics, and spent most of their time in straight electric operation.  The batteries were charged by a motor-generator which was originally intended to operate automatically, but in practice seems to have bee operated manually when main line running resumed.  Non-third-rail diesel-battery locomotives were used by NYC and Rock Island to switch LaSalle St and Central Stations in Chicago.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, June 8, 2020 12:21 AM

'S'cuse pleez... which of the ten guesses was the right one? Not very clear at all. 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:27 AM

The CN English Electrics rang the bell best.  I was less certain that Niagara Junction had a certain amount of obsolescence in its power change, but the case could be made. 

A key point was that diesel was clearly preferable to steam, and was pretty promptly implemented on that part of CN within no more than a couple of years... but when the switch was made, just as on N&W, 100% of the operation went to steam.

(It might be interesting to consider what might have happened with the VGN electrification had the merger with N&W occurred a few years earlier.  Nearly as interesting as what N&W might have done with 'its' new Alleghenies to wipe C&O's eye yet again...)

 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:47 AM

Fair enough, thank you. 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:03 PM

Overmod-- All of my home computer and phones have been Apple/Mac since 1990 starting with the LC, progressing to the ( boy was I excited) Cube, then iMacs differing models. Loved my sound sticks with the big woofer! 

Completly agree about the auto correct features substituting and replacing words, even an entire string of words occasionally that are not even remotely associated with what a person wrote. This can be particularly dangerous in texting. One has to be vigilant. 

The worst for me occurs when constructing an email and words are changed in a delayed manner. The entire meaning of a sentence or thought can easily become a disaster. 

Sometimes you fight with it all, putting in the correct word three times before it's accepted. These devices need to be dumbed down!

Now back to beach volleyball highlights! 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:09 PM

Miningman
Now back to beach volleyball highlights! 

You swine.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:17 PM

meanwhile, to get away from Sgt. Schultz, there is this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAkgiFyQZNQ

I grew up with this.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, June 8, 2020 1:57 PM

Stern looking fella. 

Are you old enough to remember when beach volleyball mags, usually with something about ' in the sun' or 'sunshine' was the choice in adult magazines. Those guys tried everything and were quite innovative to stay 'in bounds'. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 9, 2020 1:15 AM

An eastern route had regular day passenger service retored during WWII, but only one train each way basically serving more distant points, lost it after WWII was over, then saw it revived primarily to serve the local market but with superb connections and one end and decent at the other, then saw it lost again with a change in management, before a merger and well before Amtrak.  Track still exists and there is talk f reviving service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 9, 2020 1:19 AM

There was also  a special passenger service once or twice a year.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, June 11, 2020 2:20 AM

Tf the serevice was revived tday, connectins at the south end would be even better than when the service operated, by more frequent service and more choicees of level of comfort and fares and even more choices of direct destinations.  But on the north end connections have been reduced, for the time being, to  just one train easst-to-wst and one train west-to-east each day.

When the service was operating, cnnnections at the north end invoilved two other railroads, one of which closed its passenger connection only one month afger the new service started operating. and I rode the last trains, on each way) on that connection.  (Further hint, I did not have to buy a ticket to legally ride the train.  I fact. in one direction, the return on the whole journey, I rode in a lcomotive.)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 15, 2020 1:58 AM

The wartime through train that operated on this route had equipment that made a round-trip every 24 hours.  This equipment oprated over two railroads in making th etirps eadh way, but used this route only in one direction, not the other, with the two sets of equippment thus providing once-daily service in each direction on this route.

But some equipment on this train went in only one direction evey 24 hours and operated over three railroads, usually one coach and a sleeper used as a a porlor.

None of this was applicable to the renewed post WWII service which operated with a then-new type of equip;ment only between endpoints of he route on ne railroad.  But connectiolns on the norrth end involved two other railroads.

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