Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, January 15, 2019 10:08 AM

Aside from the engine change that was performed there, what other distinctive feature could be found at Manhattan Transfer?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 15, 2019 11:34 AM

You may have to be a bit more specific.  Transfer to MP38s across the platform? Change from Penn Station to Harrison St./Jersey City trains?  Pulldown train destination signs with manual activation?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 15, 2019 12:12 PM

rcdrye
The ATSF 2-10-10-2's had conventional boilers, but relatively small fireboxes which made them poor steamers

Maybe not hinged, but far from 'conventional' -- these were Baldwin sectional boilers, and 'could have' been made hinged if desired with relative ease.  The "forward" section was a combination economizer, primitive superheater, and feedwater heater; you will notice the communicating pipes (similar to the arrangement on the flexible-boiler engines, and sometimes confused with outside dry pipes) between the sections.  As I recall, Baldwin provided the 'forward' section as a module, along with the new ten-coupled forward engine, as a kind of 'kit' for Topeka; this mirrored some of the eight-coupled expansions at this time. 

The firebox in question was a Jacobs-Shupert, which supposedly could be driven to higher pressure without enhanced danger of catastrophic failure -- no staybolts.  On the other hand, a thousand riveted connections all at unfavorable stress angles; give it a few months and it commenced to leak like a sieve in ways that could not be properly calked or tightened.  ATSF was beginning to experiment with autogenous welding, including seal welding, at this time ... but it was NOT ready for prime time on pressure vessels!

I thought I remembered Worley or Stagner saying something about the 2-10-10-2 construction, but on review I don't find anything.  Suspect that there are Baldwin or industry-source pieces on the wonderful sectional boiler construction and its new life for old locomotives.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, January 15, 2019 2:48 PM

The front section of the boiler on all of AT&SF's Mallets, regardless of size, was a combination of an extended combustion chamber and superheater.  The front tube sheet was behind the joint on the jointed boilers, and about its original position (for a 2-10-2) on the 2-10-10-2's boilers.  The two jointed boilers were different from each other, one consisting of multiple 14-gauge sheets riveted and bolted together like a bellows (rivets inside, bolts outside) with an internal sleeve to prevent cinders from getting into the folds.  Unfortunately, cinders collected outside the bellows in the folds, regularly popping rivets.  The other boiler had what amounted to a ball-and-socket joint, which had all sorts of packing issues.

All of AT&SF's Mallets were underloaded on the front engine, and were considered to be very slippery.  The 4-4-6-2's were rebuilt into 4-6-2s, jettisoning almost all of the oddball features (firebox, Jacobs superheaters, reheaters, feedwater heaters) in the process.  As Pacifics they lasted until after WWII.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, January 16, 2019 10:05 AM

Overmod

You may have to be a bit more specific.  Transfer to MP38s across the platform? Change from Penn Station to Harrison St./Jersey City trains?  Pulldown train destination signs with manual activation?

 
Transfers or connecting trains are hardly distinctive except when defined as narrowly as you suggested.  This distinction applies to the station as a whole.
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 17, 2019 6:40 AM

High level brick platforms?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, January 17, 2019 10:04 AM

rcdrye

High level brick platforms?

 
Not the answer, but you can't escape that easy.
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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:11 AM

Island platforms with a whole lot of tracks between them?  And I suspect a looooong way from any street access - you better be transferring to another train if there.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, January 18, 2019 10:18 AM

Island platforms are not particularly distinctive, see Jamaica and Van Buren Street, among others.  However, no street access is distinctive.

Overmod, it's your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 20, 2019 3:25 AM

1.  Platforms to fit both regular ten-foot-wide cars and to fit 8-1/2-foot-wide-cars,  2, No ticket office,  3.  No street access,  4, Three types of propulsion:  Multiple Unit cia third-rail 600V DC, locomotive-hauled via 600V DC,  side-rod jack-shaft DC locomotives unique, steam, 5.  Not all passenger trains changed engines; all stopped, but trains to Jersey City kept steam;  6.  Five railroads, PRR, H&M, LV, B&O (OK, tecnically, the H&Ms were PRR west of Jour. Sq., JC. MP-38s and companion H&M cars were the only IC-reporting RR passenger cars in North America without steps, except that IC MUs had one vestibule with steps and traps per pair of cara.   7.  Both position light and color signals?

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, February 05, 2019 11:59 AM

Bump, still waiting...

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 10, 2019 4:54 AM

Nuuuuuuuuu?

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, February 10, 2019 8:26 AM

Dear Overmod, I am a loyal reader of you as well as the Classic Railroad Quiz, please come back and enlighten us! CoffeeBow 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 11, 2019 8:49 PM

While we admire 6110 geting underway with its Fleet of Modernism consist lets make this one another 'jump ball' as well. 

By the way, let's assume this is say 1943. Winter '43. By winter '48 the T1's were pretty much used sparingly and for certain running on mail and express trains and other secondary runs. 5 lousy years hence and in 2 more years or so 50 more to be built yet. 

So many words written on this, so many explanations, and I still DON'T GET IT!!!! Big big fubar on both ends. Pennsy heading off a cliff to total extinction. More words, more explanations, everyone trying to prove they are smarter than the next and it's all nonsense. 

For the grand finale tear down Pennsylvania Station and the take the New York Central down with you. 

Next question.. the ball is in the air! 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, February 11, 2019 9:17 PM

I have bupkis that's interesting - so FACE OFF!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 12:53 AM

Miningman

While we admire 6110 geting underway with its Fleet of Modernism consist lets make this one another 'jump ball' as well. 

By the way, let's assume this is say 1943. Winter '43. By winter '48 the T1's were pretty much used sparingly and for certain running on mail and express trains and other secondary runs. 5 lousy years hence and in 2 more years or so 50 more to be built yet. 

So many words written on this, so many explanations, and I still DON'T GET IT!!!! Big big fubar on both ends. Pennsy heading off a cliff to total extinction. More words, more explanations, everyone trying to prove they are smarter than the next and it's all nonsense. 

For the grand finale tear down Pennsylvania Station and the take the New York Central down with you. 

Next question.. the ball is in the air!  

You might have noticed that the pic is adjusted, the "untouched" version can be found on the wiki page. (I am trying to adjust all black and white photo I collected)

I also don't understand many decisions Pennsy made in the late 1940s, so I bought some old issue of Keystone recently; details about Q1, 6110,6111 are jaw-dropping which included a depiction of T2 concept and thorough report of all three of them and tons of pics I couldn't find on the web. If there is a way for us oversea reader to access all the internal memos, reports since 1936; the year when Pennsy decided to develop a duplex and the 1939-1940 World's fair started its preparation; we might have a clearer picture of why a chain of unfortunate event happened on Pennsy which led to it ultimate demise. 

Overmod

I have bupkis that's interesting - so FACE OFF!

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:53 AM

This train which carried the railroad's "brand" name ran to a major city, then carried a coach and sleeper to a nearby port city.  After the mid-1960s the extension was cut back to a single coach following the road power, in this case usually four F-units.  Name the train and end cities, and explain why the four engine set was used for the short trip.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:12 PM

The railroad initially built to the port city, arriving at the major destination city via trackage rights.  It was the only Class I with its own line to the port.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, February 16, 2019 7:57 PM

I would like to say the train was the Lark, which carried Oakland cars as well as San Francisco cars, and the engines which powered the City of San Francisco provided power for the Oakland cars--but I cannot quite fit that to your description.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, February 17, 2019 3:45 AM

Speaking of the Lark, the Lark Club, a three-car articulated food service unit consisted of the kitchen, crew dormitory car, dining room car, and tavern-lounge car from front to rear was fascinating! IMO, it was even better than the dining car of the 20th Century Limited. 

https://www.cruiselinehistory.com/californias-all-p/

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:40 PM

Since both Oakland and San Francisco are port cities, it's not a bad guess - just wrong.

The major city is actually a port, too - today a more important port than the end-city port, though that wasn't originally the case.  The train backed into the union terminal in the larger city, which it serviced to and after Amtrak, before the coach (and sleeper, earlier) went the rest of the way with all of the road power.  A key railroad-owned facility was one of the reasons the extension lasted as long as it did.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:53 PM

This sounds like the Olympian Hiawatha, which backed into Seattle (over the UP?) and then endend in Tacoma. However, I don't think it lasted past 1961. I know all the passenger service west of the Twin Cities was gone by November of 1967.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 20, 2019 5:02 AM

I think this may be the AT&AF's Texas Chief, Chicago - Houston, with the extension to Galvaston, and the four F-unite were available, did not require an engine-crew change, and could make the round-trip without additional crew or engine servicing at Houston.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, February 21, 2019 1:19 PM

daveklepper

I think this may be the AT&AF's Texas Chief, Chicago - Houston, with the extension to Galvaston, and the four F-unite were available, did not require an engine-crew change, and could make the round-trip without additional crew or engine servicing at Houston.

That's it.  AT&SF had its own roundhouse and fuel facility in Galveston, saving hefty use and storage charges at Houston Belt and Terminal's roundhouse. The rest of the train could just sit in Union Station overnight. Most days, the crew outnumbered passengers.  Crews worked the 342 mile run between Temple and Galveston.  Some of the later trips might have been handled by AT&SF's U28CGs, which were first assigned to the Texas Chief.

The public timetable from 1966 suggests that the "Chair Car" only ran between Houston and Galveston, since it was probably easier to transfer the few passengers than to cut the coach in behind the Baggage car.  Many of the other trains that had shared Houston Union Station were gone by 1966, so platform space would not have been a problem.

The Galveston run only lasted two years as an AT&SF train.  Until 1965, it was technically handled by the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe, one of two companies that made up AT&SF's presence in Texas.

Union Station is now the front entrance to Minute Maid park, home of the Houston Astros.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, February 21, 2019 8:37 PM

Fascinating. Glad to find out and know these things. 

So much lost, so many changes. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 24, 2019 3:38 AM

I recommend the Roger Acara movie on the Third Avenue Elevated thread and an happy to see it there, thanks.  Roger mentions the conncection between the elevated and the New Haven and the elevated shuttle train that used it.  What was the other passenger service that at one time used that elevated connection and what equipment did it use?

Apparently, from the Roger's commentary and my previous postings, there is some disagreement as tro what the hopper cars discussed were used for.  But there is no reason they could not have been used for both ballast stones (as per Henry Raudenbush) and coal.  I can live with that explanaition.  Anyway, a terrific movie.

Again, what was the other passenger service that at one time used the elevated - New Haven Willis Avenue station connection.

I rode the connection on a 1950 "Fairwell to the Composites" ERA fantrip.  We were not allowed off the train at Willis Avenue, however.

Bonus: name all the passenger services that at one time or another used the Willis Avenue Station and describe the equipment used.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, February 25, 2019 3:59 AM

The service I am looking for was cut back from running over the connection and the bridge to Manhattan when the Third Avenue Elevated was electrified, and then ran south only to Willis Avenue, with the Elevated's Willis-129th Street shuttle taking over the link.  The service was electrified later.  And later, it had direct competition between end-points after the cut-back, also electric.  And it quit before the comptition.  Some points on its line of service are to see passenger service again!

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 27, 2019 1:20 AM

At the northern or eastern terminal (the opposite once being 129th Street St. 2nd-3rd Avenues, then Willis Avenue) the track specifically for this service remains with now a high platform between it and the regular outbound local track. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, February 28, 2019 5:49 PM

Not being too tight with New York subways and elevateds I'm looking at Hunt's Point on the Westchester Ave line.  It comes pretty close to the Harlem River line (NYNH&H/PC/Amtrak) near the former NYW&B.  There are plans to put stations on the Harlem River Line for "Penn Station Access" service from Metro-North.  Hunt's Point is on the station list.  A track connection would have been used for equipment or coal delivery.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 04, 2019 10:36 AM

Not sure if I answered the question.  Obviously any exchange with the NH or NYW&B would either date back to the steam-powered era or be handled as a switching move.

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