Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 02, 2018 8:36 PM

Dug into some more timetables to give a better answer.  Milwaukee had three daily Chicago-Omaha trains in 1948, with schedules that might actually have worked for local passengers.  The 1955 "Cities" move left a fleet in each direction, all set up for evening departure from Chicago, and early afternoon arrival from western points, with middle-of-the-night stops in Omaha.  As an interesting footnote, Milwaukee's 1948 Omaha trains had numbers between 102 and 108, all of them used later by "City" or "Challenger" trains.

In 1948 C&NW had 10 trains a day between Chicago and Omaha.  21 and 22, the old "Pacific" still carried an L.A. sleeper (via the Pony Express). In 1957 there were two - daytime 3/4 and overnight (with a 6-6-4 "American" sleeper) 5/6.  The Daytime Kate Shelley 400 between Chicago and Cedar Rapids filled in some of the space on the eastern end.

SP's connection to 21 and 22 had been downgraded to mail trains by 1948.  The through 1948 Overland (27-28) was reduced after 1955 to an Ogden-Oakland train that got sleepers from the City of St. Louis, and further reduced to seasonal by 1960 (SP did rebuild some prewar coaches into domes specifically for the Overland).  The Gold Coast was simply discontinued.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:13 AM

New question....

 

There was a passenger train name that was applied to a north-south service that signaled the initial entry of the sponsoring railroad into higher speed services.  Five years later, the same name was applied to an east-west train of another railroad, signaling its entry of a type of service that was trendy at the time.

 

Name, railroads and routes, please. 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 13, 2018 4:47 AM

Technically meeting your definitions, but probably not what you are asking for are the Zepjyrs.  The Twin Zephyrs were the CB&Q's entry into the high-speed (for the day) north-south Chicago - Twin Cities market.  Later the name Zephyr, which certainly had become trendy by the itme, was applied to the east-west California Zephyr, which did run on the CB&@, but also on the D&RGW and WP, either one the "other railroad,"    Or you could just wait for the post CZ days for the RGZ, Rio-Grande Zephyr, just one railroad, not including the CB&Q.  With the Zephyr name still "trendy" as in Amtrak's San Francisco Zephyr.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, July 13, 2018 9:51 AM

daveklepper

Technically meeting your definitions, but probably not what you are asking for are the Zepjyrs.  The Twin Zephyrs were the CB&Q's entry into the high-speed (for the day) north-south Chicago - Twin Cities market.  Later the name Zephyr, which certainly had become trendy by the itme, was applied to the east-west California Zephyr, which did run on the CB&@, but also on the D&RGW and WP, either one the "other railroad,"    Or you could just wait for the post CZ days for the RGZ, Rio-Grande Zephyr, just one railroad, not including the CB&Q.  With the Zephyr name still "trendy" as in Amtrak's San Francisco Zephyr.

 

Zephyr is not it.  If you reread my original question I stated that five years separated the two start dates for the trains I'm looking for.  The Twin Cities Zephyr and California Zephyr inauguations were separated by 13 years.  Also, I used "trendy" to refer to the type of service the second train was offering, not to the name itself.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, July 14, 2018 3:44 PM

Not the answer, but an interesting similarity:  CGW and then Wabash Bluebird/Blue Bird (1929 and 1938).  BOTH trains, in this case, were 'restyled' to give streamlined effect from older rolling stock, an approach sometimes taken by large railroads too (B&O and NYC doing this at the same time they were building lightweight equipment).  Not sure how actually fast the CGW Mayo Clinic train was, but it certainly had the potential to be higher-speed than anything else in that area in 1929...

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, July 15, 2018 6:13 AM

Overmod

Not the answer, but an interesting similarity:  CGW and then Wabash Bluebird/Blue Bird (1929 and 1938).  BOTH trains, in this case, were 'restyled' to give streamlined effect from older rolling stock, an approach sometimes taken by large railroads too (B&O and NYC doing this at the same time they were building lightweight equipment).  Not sure how actually fast the CGW Mayo Clinic train was, but it certainly had the potential to be higher-speed than anything else in that area in 1929...

 

Your answer contains a clue in that the trains that comprise the answer I'm looking for were initially equipped with conventional (modernized and not) cars.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 15, 2018 11:19 AM

Wouldn't have anything to do with boat trains, would it?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, July 15, 2018 2:55 PM

Overmod

Wouldn't have anything to do with boat trains, would it?

 

Nope...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 2:21 AM

Did the first train continue to operate during any of the period of operation of the second train?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:14 AM

daveklepper

Did the first train continue to operate during any of the period of operation of the second train?

 

No - the first train was relatively short lived.  For the second application, the use of the name was eventually expanded by the sponsoring road and was eventually applied to a non-passenger service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 10:07 AM

So the name is obviously Super as applied to the Super Chief, which introduced new high-speed all First-Class service with diesel power, the first after the CN Beardmores, but first with heavywieght upgraded Pullman equipment, and running east west.  Now I will try and find a short-lived north-south Super passenger rain.

The Super name was later applied by the ATS&F to a high-speed east-west freight service. 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 11:01 AM

daveklepper

So the name is obviously Super as applied to the Super Chief, which introduced new high-speed all First-Class service with diesel power, the first after the CN Beardmores, but first with heavywieght upgraded Pullman equipment, and running east west.  Now I will try and find a short-lived north-south Super passenger rain.

The Super name was later applied by the ATS&F to a high-speed east-west freight service. 

 

"Super" is obviously not.  

Another clue - both trains shared an endpoint.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, July 21, 2018 9:26 AM

Another clue - both trains were inaugruated in the 1930's.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 22, 2018 8:10 AM

Was the second railroad the Frisco, and the name Meteor?   And possibly the MP has a passenger train by that name earlier.  Saint Louis would then be the common terminal.   Or the Katy?

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, July 22, 2018 7:18 PM

daveklepper

Was the second railroad the Frisco, and the name Meteor?   And possibly the MP has a passenger train by that name earlier.  Saint Louis would then be the common terminal.   Or the Katy?

 

No, none of the above qualifies.  Another clue is that the second train eventually became a streamliner.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:23 PM

Since my question has been languishing for a couple of weeks now, its time to bump this up with the clues I've given:

The original question:  

There was a passenger train name that was applied to a north-south service that signaled the initial entry of the sponsoring railroad into higher speed services.  Five years later, the same name was applied to an east-west train of another railroad, signaling its entry of a type of service that was trendy at the time.

The clues:

-Both trains were initially equipped with conventional (modernized and not) cars.

-The first train was relatively short lived.  For the second application, the use of the name was eventually expanded by the sponsoring road and was eventually applied to a non-passenger service.

- Both trains shared an endpoint.  

- Both trains were inaugruated in the 1930's.

- The second train eventually became a streamliner.

- NEW CLUE - The endpoint both trains shared was Chicago.

- NEW CLUE - The first train was a short distance run.  The second train was an overnighter.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:06 AM

How does this NOT fit "Pacemaker"?

The original being that C&NW service from Chicago to Milwaukee, that got sped up into 400s, and the more famous later ones on NYC being all-coach service, and then expedited LCL freight in those lovely rose-and-gray boxcars.

Problem being where the use of yellow on any of the NYC trains comes in... oh, wait, that was the other quiz question, wasn't it?  I think I outthunk myself.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:37 AM

You have the two question threads mixed - the other one has yellow in the clues...

 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:04 AM

Overmod

How does this NOT fit "Pacemaker"?

The original being that C&NW service from Chicago to Milwaukee, that got sped up into 400s, and the more famous later ones on NYC being all-coach service, and then expedited LCL freight in those lovely rose-and-gray boxcars.

Problem being where the use of yellow on any of the NYC trains comes in... oh, wait, that was the other quiz question, wasn't it?  I think I outthunk myself.

 

You're right - it was the Pacemaker.

C&NW's version began in July 1934 as an immediate answer to Milwaukee Road's high speed Chicago-Milwaukee test runs eventually culuminating in the Hiawatha.  Its Pacemaker was quickly eclipsed by the "400", as the speed war spread to the Chicago-Minneapolis market in competition between C&NW, Milwaukee Road and the Burlington.  The name lasted only for a few years, with the northbound run renamed to The Valley.

In July 1939, NYC inaugruated its Pacemaker, as an all-coach train in direct competion to PRR's Trail Blazer at a time when all coach trains were the main trend in new rail passenger services.  After WW2, the Pacemaker received new lightweight equipment and the name was applied to a branded freight serivce.

Overmod, you get the next question.  

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:08 AM

As for mixing up the Quizzes with the yellow colour, well the New York Central 'Early Bird' service had a big yellow oval logo. 

Not that this matters in the least. 

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Posted by 3rd rail on Sunday, August 05, 2018 8:53 AM

What ever happened to the Neon sign hanging on Englewood Union Station? I'd sure like that in my collection.. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, August 05, 2018 3:49 PM

Miningman, you're up on both quiz threads...

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, August 05, 2018 4:23 PM

Thought this was Overmods question to ask, but, he frequently defers so I will post both. Just give me a couple of hours. 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 06, 2018 2:16 AM

Regularly assigned engine Pacific #2332 with the spiffy looking smoke deflectors was regularly assigned to this train for many years. I know this is a bit of a groaner question, maybe a stretch, but I'm hoping there are enough clues in the photos that you can fiqure out which train it is. 

G3 class Pacific 2332 complete with smoke deflectors regularly assigned  June 1952 Ken McDonald 

 

Note engine crew talking with man possibly a company official. 

Actually, the fireman is likely just listening!

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 06, 2018 1:48 PM

Miningman
Thought this was Overmods question to ask, but, he frequently defers so I will post both.

Yeah, go ahead.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 06, 2018 3:44 PM

Perhaps I should drop a hint.

This train involved 4 Railroads and covered 733 miles end to end. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 06, 2018 5:27 PM

That nice wood-framed mail/express car (B&M?) behind the CPR baggage suggests "The Gull" from Boston to Halifax.  But then, so does the image filename 2332cb_The_Gull.jpg... Boston - B&M - Portland  - MEC - Vanceboro - CPR - St Johns - CNR.  Major mail and seafood hauler in the days when a lot of seafood went to New England and New York markets in express reefers.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 06, 2018 6:02 PM

Uh-oh, thought I had removed that. Thats not good  I thought the trackage orientation in the first photo in St John, New Brunswick was recognizable as a clue and the very distinctive station at McAdam, New Brunswick was another.

Good info here and a beautiful advert from the Boston and Maine.

The Gull 

New England and the Maritimes. 

Boston - Portland - Saint John - Moncton - Halifax 

Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Canadian Pacific, Canadian National. 

B&M Boston to Portland 114.7 miles 
MEC Portland to Vanceboro 249. 9 miles
CPR Vanceboro to Saint John 90.3 miles 
CNR Saint John to Halifax 278.1 miles 


 

In the early 20th century the Maritimes had closer ties to Boston and New England than to Montreal. 
The only passenger train between Boston and Halifax was The Gull. Inaugurated September 30, 1928 
operating daily it was a joint service with pooled equipment. Ending September 5, 1960. 
The only through car from Boston was a 12 section 1 drawing room car carried on CNR train 14 between Saint John and Moncton as well as on the The Ocean Limited Moncton to Halifax. In addition, a buffet-club-1 drawing room - 4 compartment sleeper operated between Boston and Moncton. Coach passengers changed trains in Saint John and Moncton. 
This later (end 1948) changed from a 12-1 sleeper to a 10 section - 1 compartment- 2 bedroom sleeper. 
Over the years sleepers and dining cars changed as well as trains they operated on. 
Additional sleepers operated on B&M and MEC segments. 

RDC's replaced conventional equipment on the B&M between Boston and Portland September 12, 1959. 
In October 1959 CPR discontinued trains 113 and 114 between Vanceboro and Saint John 
ending through MEC coaches requiring a change to the Atlantic Limited further downgrading service. 
The final run of The Gull on Maine Central was on September 5, 1960.

Yet another long distance important train that ended up being a pathetic RDC run 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 07, 2018 6:40 AM

I only noticed the filename after I had ID'd the train...

The Gull was as much a victim of shifting loyalties as anyting else.  Boston's connection with the Maritimes faded pretty rapidly inthe postwar era.  To be fair, the Gull outlived all other non-RDC trains at North Station, and was only outlived on the B&M as non-RDC trains by the Montrealer/Washingtonian and Ambassador trains that were joint with Central Vermont.

 

This prewar stramlined train between two regionally important cities caused enough traffic growth on its initial route to require its replacement with conventional equipment on an accelerated schedule.  In a series of attempts to find a home for the equipment, it operated among other places on two different mountain routes, ending up on a regional route that required a backup move near the middle of the run to complete.  Let's go for the train's original name, and the train names used on the three routes described here.  If you can name the spot where the backup move was required, so much the better.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 08, 2018 2:09 PM

And if the train exists today, it would be the Flying Yankee first used between Boston and Portland and Bangor, shifted to the Minute Man between Boston and Troy, and then to the Cheshire between Boston and White River Junction, with a backup move due to the track layout at Bellows Falls, because it did not use the Boston - Concord - White River Junction line but ran through Fitchburg and Bellows Fall and up the Connecticut River Line through Springfield Junction and Calirmont Junction, then for a while may have been restored to limited Boston - Portland service before retirement.  In its last role it was actually just standby equipment for when there were not enough Budd RDCs to cover the service, and definitely did not run through to Bangor.  It was built by Budd and was a near copy of the Pioneer Zephyr, in service a year later.  Lionel had a popular O-Gauge representativ.

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