Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 13, 2018 5:06 PM

There is something as important, if not more important, than the fact of the corrugations that makes this firebox important ... and similar to the tender design.

Note that 'bottom of the sides' and 'increased depth' have little meaning in the context of a Vanderbilt firebox; you might want to look more carefully at 'what it is and what it does' ... and why it did not see evolutionary development after the period it was introduced.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, April 13, 2018 8:57 PM

OK..I'll try again..Theoretically a corrugated firebox is able easily to accomadate lengthwise expansion but in application it proved to be excessively rigid and gave much trouble due to leakage at the joints. 

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 13, 2018 9:18 PM

I believe you are thinking of something somewhat different, perhaps the Jacobs-Shupert firebox ... the Vanderbilt was corrugated, but followed very well-established marine practice in how the corrugations were used in a way that was not particularly susceptible to leakage -- the geometry had a great deal to do with it.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, April 13, 2018 10:14 PM

Yes that is specifically the Jacobs Shupert firebox however I thought the general dynamics were applicable.

How about then the circular nature of the corrugations giving it more strength and more area in the firebox itself, like a corrugated pipe you see along roadside ditches and drainage. If thats not right then I pass the torch to someone not so geologically orientated....been schlepping full core boxes all afternoon (well the students did most of the schlepping) but still, I opened them and layed out many many in order and started logging. Glad it's the weekend.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 16, 2018 4:30 PM

The big thing about the Vanderbilt firebox, which was directly adapted from a marine 'equivalent', was that it was fully cylindrical: there was no 'grate' opening or waterleg space with open air and an ashpan underneath.  That meant there was a full 360 degrees of equal waterspace and pressure-balancing effect 'all the way around', and of course nothing but easily-inserted and easily-caulked radial stays everywhere in the box structure. 

Now if you asked me if this design was suited to locomotive service I would start giving you extensive evidence as to why it couldn't possibly be.  But the design was remarkably good -- for that transition age at the turn of the 20th Century when the boiler was still considered as the source of the effective steam, and the firebox was water-SHIELDED without much respect or even recognition of the contribution of what would become Stefan-Boltzmann thermodynamics to steam generation.

Even the issue of ash vs. primary-air distribution under the grate in one of these things was not considered dramatically difficult -- perhaps because of the limited run between division points that one of these locomotives would 'see'. 

It did not take long to realize, however, that the advantages of deep fireboxes (and later, wide deep fireboxes, as distinct from wide shallow ones) gave dramatic performance improvements in practical high speed steam generation.  That might be considered one of the last preliminary steps required for Schmidt-type superheaters to come into their own as "game-changing" performance enhancing systems.  And at the required water rate and fuel rate more modern combustion systems could produce, there was little place for artificially-constrained geometry at smaller scale no matter how good the maintenance records could be.

(As an amusing comparison, look at Strong's duplex firebox vs. what Cornelius the younger developed...)

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, April 16, 2018 7:21 PM

Thank you Overmod for that. No grate,,,fascinating. Perhaps my last attempt at explaining it came the closest. 

Seems that Cornelius III got a very raw deal for Daddy, yet he remained married to his wife for his lifetime...and nothing shabby about the Order Of Cincinnati either.

I'm grateful for the look of the Vanderbilt tender. Big power on the GTW and CNR, C&O, B&O, Southern Pacific, and others all evoke that imagery. Have read that he was quite influential in bringing designs to the New York subway system as well. 

Strange enough how other major roads, NYCentral, CPR, Pennsy, shunned these tenders. 

Should I ask the next question?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:40 PM

Miningman
No grate ... fascinating.

It most certainly had a grate ... what it did not have was an ashpan of conventional arrangement.  And this was in my opinion one of the reasons it did not, and would not, 'scale' to the locomotive size that was by the early 1900s becoming characteristic of many North American railroads.

Most coal-fired marine work with things like Scotch marine boilers involves the inherent ability to rake ash out from under the fire independent of ship speed at the time required.  This is not a trivial thing on a locomotive, particularly when the ash raked out has to be disposed of in the space between the rear of the firebox and the tender, effectively below 'footplate' level.

Go ahead and ask the next question.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:59 PM

When completed in 1913 this became the longest Bascule Bridge in the world. 

Name the Railroad and the location i.e. What did the bridge span?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:00 PM

Is this a trick question?

The Broadway Bridge over the Willamette in Portland, if I recall correctly, never handled any 'railroad' larger than streetcars.  Are you confusing the type of mechanism, Rall, with 'rail'?

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:23 PM

No not a trick question at all. Big Railroad, Big Bascule Bridge.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:15 PM

Do you mean the longest single-span bascule bridge?

The Broadway bridge has dual spans.

 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:23 PM

What is this Broadway bridge stuff? No.no, no...what I have to give hints already? 

Single track.

Too early to talk span(s).

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:26 PM

Is it still with us, or has it already met its demise?

Perhaps in an accident involving a ship?

EDIT: never mind, the one I was thinking of was double track.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:42 PM

It is still very much with us. It is rather important and famous for its unique engineering and the last extant example left anywhere. 

A particular problem had to be solved and it was done so with a fairly complicated solution. 

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:14 AM

OK here's a hint.

When completed, this was the longest bascule span in the entire world! This makes the bridge highly significant. 

 

There is an additional exceedingly rare and significant aspect to this bridge. Note that when this bridge is closed it looks like a single span Pennsylvania through truss. This is unlike bascule bridges in Chicago such as the La Salle Street Bridge. With those bridges in Chicago, the trusses are deepest (tallest) at the abutments, indicating that each span acts as a cantilever and holds weight independently of the other, in a cantilever type of fashion. Standing on such a bridge when a heavy truck goes over, you can feel the bridge move as the truck crosses from one leaf to another as the weight shifts. In contrast,, the bridge functions as a single span simple Pennsylvania through truss when it is closed. Special load-bearing locks had to be designed to link the bridge halves together securely and allow them to transfer live loads to the chords of the truss. This complex design was a solution to the need for a very wide and unobstructed clear channel, while also meeting the needs of the railroad for a rigid structure. Railroads usually like single leaf bascule bridges. Nearly all double-leaf bascule bridges are highway bridges. Recall that shifting weight scenario described above with the La Salle Street Bridge. Trains will not operate well if the bridge is shifting constantly as each train car crosses the bascule span. They need a bridge that will remain rigid and unmoving under the heavy loads. Creating a bascule span that operates as a single span through truss when closed (rather than two cantilevers reaching out from each abutment) keeps the bridge rigid. However, the needed span was so long that the traditional way to make a bascule span function like a single span truss, by designing a single leaf, was not feasible. This bridge is the solution xxx came up with to provide a double-leaf bascule with the function and rigidity of a single leaf bascule. 

....I "redacted" key names 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 1:34 AM

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:27 AM

I think you're referring to one ofthe Sault Ste. Marie Bridge Company's International bridge spans between the cities of the same name in Michigan and Ontario.  A doulble leaf bascule built in 1907 by the Dominion Bridge Co. Lim'd, it spans the North Soo Canal , opening to permit the passage of lake boats.  The Bridge company was owned by Canadian Pacific, connecting CP (and Algoma Central) with the Soo Line and DSS&A.  One of a series of bridges crossing the Soo Canal, the older Sault Ste Marie Canal and the St. Mary's River, it is the only one of its type.  It used to have, and may still have, a significant weight restriction.

Working from south to north, the crossing has a large vertical lift bridge, the double leaf bascule, a series of truss bridges, a short stretch on an island, and a swing bridge which is configured with its pivot on one side of the canal, so it closes over the canal on one side and land on the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcokyT70wlU

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 8:32 AM

Strauss 'trunnion' design.  

Certainly a good approach for a bridge that is normally closed.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 8:36 AM

lots of different construction techniques in one place...

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:13 PM

Wanswheel--1:34 am Timestamp

rcdrye--7:27 am Timestamp

I hereby declare Wanswheel the winner and give a large and appreciative nod to rcdrye for the fabulous further information on it's connections both bridge wise and railroad wise. 

It is, unfortunately, no longer in CP hands, it is now CN. 

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 2:58 PM

How many windows had College Creek in line with PENNSYLVANIA?

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 9:28 PM

Six windows in line.

P-S "Creek" Series 12 Duplex 4 Bedroom Sleeper, Plan #4130. Lot #6792
WALTH 9242

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:05 PM

That's too simple.  Who has a picture of the other (less 'interesting') side?

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:07 PM

As an aside, I saw one of these in Bristol, Va., in the fifties; somehow, I was in town when the Pelican came in one morning and dropped one of these, instead of the 10-6 that usually ran between New York and Bristol. I stepped on board and looked in one of the duplex rooms.

Johnny

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 11:08 PM

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 11:10 PM

Both photos are Creek series....perhaps there is something odd about College Creek in the series.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 19, 2018 5:08 AM

Miningman
Both photos are Creek series....perhaps there is something odd about College Creek in the series.

That's what makes me nervous, like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis, when I see Mike MacDonald ask a question like this.  The obvious answer looking at a Walthers model of "College Creek" that is probably derived from a common Creek shell, the picture easily found in a few seconds via a Web search, is too easy to generate. 

Of course I could just be overthinking.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 19, 2018 6:49 AM

The "Creek" cars were updated versions of the prewar "Brook" 12DupSR 5DBR cars.  Each "Creek" car had two double bedrooms with lengthwise beds and two with crosswise beds, in addition to six each upper and lower duplex single rooms.  The "Brook" cars were assigned to second-tier trains from the beginning, but the "Creek" cars made it onto the Broadway and the Spirit of St. Louis.

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