Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, January 19, 2009 2:25 PM

Lebanon Springs Railroad at Chatham?

Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad at Millerton?

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/harlemrr.Html

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, January 19, 2009 4:52 PM

Still not within the 1 1/2 missing parts.

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, January 19, 2009 8:47 PM

daveklepper

I thought I got three.   With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven.   When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven.   Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long.   Did you include the West Shore as one of the three?  Or did you mean the Putnam?   YOu could say there are four:  East -to-West:  Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore.    So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE.   I did not include the New Haven.  I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting.   I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT.   YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B.    Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid.   Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!

 

Dave, I've reread and therefore have  reconsidered your answers as complete.  I was looking for the Ulster and Delaware Railroad, aka the Catskill Mt. Div., from Kingston to Oneonta, NY as a through service over the West Shore.  But I really got more hung up on the Rutland.  You said Rutland at Troy and I was hung up on the Rutland at Chatham where the milk trains from Bennington, VT achieved Harlem tracks.  I was also hung up on Albany/Troy as the northern end.  You mentioned the TH&B but there was also the NY and Ottawa via Tupper Lake from Utica which someone could have injected, too.  The problem with history is the more you dig the more there is to be dug!

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:20 AM

I rode the Ulster andd Delaware from Kingston to Fleishmans and back in 1946.   At that time it was already owned by the New York Central and the ten-wheelers all had New York Central on their tenders.  I was not aware that there was every any through service to Weehawken when the railroad was independent.  I had to change trains in Kingston in both directions when I rode.   I saw one freight, and, like the passenger trains, was also pulled by a 4-6-0.

 

I made one mistake.  I think the handover between the TH&B and the NYC was at Niagra Falls or Suspension Bridge, and not at Buffalo.  The TH&B either had its own line or trackage rights into Buffalo, but the passenger trains between Buffalo and Niagra Falls were NYV, if I am correct.

 

I'll try, when I have time, to get the name of the junction between the NYO&W and the West Shore.  YOu can look it up in the meantime.

 

Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:43 AM

NYO&W left the West Shore main at Cornwall, NY

As for an answere to your question, I nominate The Rutland.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:02 AM

daveklepper

I rode the Ulster andd Delaware from Kingston to Fleishmans and back in 1946.   At that time it was already owned by the New York Central and the ten-wheelers all had New York Central on their tenders.  I was not aware that there was every any through service to Weehawken when the railroad was independent.  I had to change trains in Kingston in both directions when I rode.   I saw one freight, and, like the passenger trains, was also pulled by a 4-6-0.

 

I made one mistake.  I think the handover between the TH&B and the NYC was at Niagra Falls or Suspension Bridge, and not at Buffalo.  The TH&B either had its own line or trackage rights into Buffalo, but the passenger trains between Buffalo and Niagra Falls were NYV, if I am correct.

I'll try, when I have time, to get the name of the junction between the NYO&W and the West Shore.  YOu can look it up in the meantime.

 

Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?

Dave, Niagara Falls was out of the way for service between Buffalo and Toronto via the TH&B. Welland (the actual railroad junction point) directly to Buffalo  is 38.5 miles; via Niagara Falls it was 40.8 miles (the TH&B map gives the impression that it is much farther). After the TH&B reached Welland, there may have been through service via Niagara Falls, but it was gone by 1916. By 1893, the Michigan Central was already running through Ft. Erie. According to the June, 1955, representation of both the NYC and TH&B in the Guide, the TH&B operated the trains into Buffalo, which would have been through trackage rights. The CP operated the trains between Toronto and Hamilton. The NYC operated the trains between Welland and Niagara Falls.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:14 AM

So, I should have left my original answer as correct.   Thanks for the information.   My trip to Fleishmans was to visit relatives in Holcott Center, and there was neither bus nor rail service to Holcott Center.   My relatives sent me a bus schedule to Fleishmans, and then a visit to GCT gave me (a 14-year-old) the timetable for trains to Fleishmans.  It was a marvelous trip.   The 10th Avenue open side convertable streetcars were still running to the West 42nd Street Ferry.  The train from Weehawken to Kingston had a 4700-class Pacific.   The there were the ten-wheelers on the Ulster and Delaware branch, and they were similar to those used on the Putnam Division.   I think I saw both slide-valve and piston-valve ten-wheelers.  Coming back from Kingston, we had a 5200-series J-1 Hudson.   Riding the rear platfom, I saw a freight pass with an elephant-eared Mowhawk, mostly refrigorator cars.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:49 AM

You did better than I did, Dave.  At the age of 12 in May of 1955 I was riding a DL&W-L&HR-L&NE fan trip to Maybrook, NY sponsored by the Railroadians of America.  There was a flyer passed out promoting a September trip up the West Shore and over the U&D to Oneonta, NY "one last time".  I knew I wanted to go, I knew I should go, but I also knew my parents just wouldn't understand.

Oh, and I have in my possession an 8MM movie (Blackhawk Films?) of the U&D from Kingston up the hill.  A camera was attached to the pilot of the ancient steamer and away they went.  Circa 1915!  I have it, yes, but it really belongs to a friend.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:51 AM

I never got to Maybrook, but I did ride part of the ex-New Haven Maybrook line, between Danbury and Beacon on a FL-9 new push-pull equpment Metro North fantrip with all equipment painted in the NH color scheme.  Metro-North uses and owns this line, uses it for equpment moves.   I think CSX provides the freight service, and it has a connection with the Hudson Line at Beacon and the Harlem at Brewster. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 2:05 PM

A hundred years ago Maybrook, NY was known as Campbell Hall.

New York, Ontario & Western map: http://www.nyow.org/OW_map.jpg

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 2:40 PM

Campbell Hall is and always was Campbell Hall.  And Maybrook is and was always Maybrook. There is a  mile or so between them.  But before the L&HR, CNE, et al built into the area, Maybrook was not the yard we came to know and love.  The town or village was there, the yard wasn't.  Plus note your map is an obvious NYC empire map and to show that Maybrook with its Erie, O&W, L&NE and L&HR (DL&W, PRR, CNJ, RDG)  connections to the New Haven empire was not thier perogative. The NYC did access Maybrook via the Erie from Campbell Hall.  That's a really neat map, too.  I presume it is one similar to what many eastern roads did back from the turn of the 19/20th Centuries into the 1950s.  Multi colored, all connections show, all connections they didn't want you to know about not shown, direct competitors and thier connections not shown.  I have several from the DL&W and the Erie and have seen those of the O&W, PRR, and LV. Great collectors items!

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:20 AM

I believe I am supposed to ask the next question.   OK, here it is:

We all know of new light rail systems using railroad rights of way, abandoned lines, existing lines, sometimes retension of freight service, but where did the very first use of trolley wire and single-streetcar like operation on a steam railroad start (or former steam railroad)?   You don't have to be specific about exactly which towns or cities, but definitely state the company (ies) involved.   That is the first part.   The second part is which was the first light rail line with the characteristics of a modern light rail and speed to match?

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:16 AM

Henry, thanks for explaining Maybrook and Campbell Hall.

Dave, will you never tell us which railroad had no Pacific?

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:04 AM

daveklepper

I believe I am supposed to ask the next question.   OK, here it is:

We all know of new light rail systems using railroad rights of way, abandoned lines, existing lines, sometimes retension of freight service, but where did the very first use of trolley wire and single-streetcar like operation on a steam railroad start (or former steam railroad)?   You don't have to be specific about exactly which towns or cities, but definitely state the company (ies) involved.   That is the first part.   The second part is which was the first light rail line with the characteristics of a modern light rail and speed to match?

I am gonna stretch this out with a wild guess.  Part one: Sacremento Northern.  Part two: Philadelphia and Western (Norristown High Speed Line).

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:55 PM

As far as I know, the Sacramento Northern was put together from a collection of local and interurban eledftric lines and never had main line steam.   So your first answer is not right.   The second, my quesiotn isn't right.  I meant converted from a steam railroad branch line, but didn't say so, and so I have to give you credit for the seond answer, where the Philadlephia and Western probably was the first really high speed interurban, opened before the North Shore opened its Skokie Valley Line, and before the covernsion that sparked the question and which I will save for some other question.   The P&W was invisioned as part of a much longer system, but it did start pretty early.   The orignal main l ine was to Strafford, not Norristown, and the Norristown Line became the main line, and some time after WWII, the Strafford branch was abandoned .  I believe the junction was a flat double-track junction at Villanova   The first question is still open.   Hint, one of the electrified lines still exists as a passneger operation that is part of a commuter railroad operaton and not light rail anymore, although riding th eline gives evidence of its original cross-country trolley -  steam branch line characteristics.   And its trolley operation was VERY early and one of several.

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, January 22, 2009 2:55 PM
So where are we going with this?  Chicago?  Like CSS&SB?  Not being from there I am sor of Insullated from the history of the area.  Insullated?  Get it? Insullated. Ha Ha?

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Posted by erikem on Friday, January 23, 2009 12:05 AM

 I would guess the New Haven, with the line still in service being the New Canaan branch - which I rode in summer of 2006. It was kind of fun seeing some of the stations pictured in Middleton's When the Steam Railroads Electrified, which I bought 31 years before that.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, January 26, 2009 5:47 PM

This is a message I posted t or 3 weeks ago when we were having problems and getting "Post Pending Moderation" messages. It just now was approved and showed up after all that time.

Mark

KCSfan
TZ,The KCS actually had two subsidiaries that operated the Texas parts of its lines. The Texarkana & Ft Smith built the 79 miles  between Port Arthur and the TX/LA state line at the Sabine River. It became a part of the KCS but was operated separately in accordance with Texas state law until 1933 when the ICC used its authority to override the Texas law. The state of Texas appealed the ICC ruling to the Supreme Court which decided in favor of the ICC in 1934. This was the case that ended the requirement that railroads operating in Texas had to be headquartered in the state. The T&FtS was then leased by the KCS and later was dissolved as a corporation and fully absorbed into the KCS system.The Louisiana Arkansas & Texas operated 181 miles in Texas from McKinney near Dallas to the Louisiana state line. This was originally an MKT line that was purchased in 1923 by the Louisiana Railway & Navigation Co. of Texas. In 1930 the LR&N of Texas was renamed the Louisiana Arkansas & Texas and for a while was headquartered in Greenville, TX. In 1939 the LA&T was merged into the parent Louisiana & Arkansas which in turn was acquired by the KCS. The combined roads operated as the KCS/L&A Lines until the early 1960’s and by 1966 the L&A had been completely dropped from its name. However the L&A existed as a legal entity until 1992 when it was dissolved as a corporation. I always thought Colorado & Southern trackage ended at the NM/TX state line and thought it was FW&D from there south into Texas. Your reply got me to do some further research and to my surprise I found that the FW&D was indeed a subsidiary of the C&S. I never fail to learn something new and interesting from these questions.Mark  

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:17 AM

Erikem is correct.   The New Canaan Branch was electrified with 600V DC trolley wire in 1901, and this was just one of a number of New Haven branches that had this form of electrification.   They were all integrated with whatever local streetcar network was adjacent, soon all owned by the Consolodated Company, later renamed the Connecticut Co., and owned by the New Haven.   The New Canaan branch was operated as part of the Stamford streetcar network until the AC 11000V electgrification reached Stamford, then the new 11000V elecctrificaiton replaced it, and the line reverted to being a branch of the railroad.   The other branch line electrifications were just abandoned.  So Erikem gets to ask the next question.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:52 PM

daveklepper

Erikem is correct.   The New Canaan Branch was electrified with 600V DC trolley wire in 1901, and this was just one of a number of New Haven branches that had this form of electrification.   They were all integrated with whatever local streetcar network was adjacent, soon all owned by the Consolodated Company, later renamed the Connecticut Co., and owned by the New Haven.   The New Canaan branch was operated as part of the Stamford streetcar network until the AC 11000V electgrification reached Stamford, then the new 11000V elecctrificaiton replaced it, and the line reverted to being a branch of the railroad.   The other branch line electrifications were just abandoned.  So Erikem gets to ask the next question.

Erikem, do you have a question?

Johnny

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:51 PM

Has the second part of the above question been answered too?  - a.s.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:49 AM

Al, from what Dave Klepper said, he was satisfied with Erikem's response. It looks to me that the thread is open for another question. Will you amuse us?

Johnny

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:29 PM

Deggesty
I

Al, from what Dave Klepper said, he was satisfied with Erikem's response. It looks to me that the thread is open for another question. Will you amuse us?

Johnny

Sorry I was so slow to pick up your offer, but I'm very grateful to get a crack at it!  Here goes: 

It's early morning on a weekday in May, 1953, and you're in Norton, Virginia.  You want to travel by rail to Chicago (any downtown terminal will do), and you want to get there as quickly as possible entirely by rail. 

The first leg of your trip will involve taking a train from Norton to a more northerly point, where you change to a named train that is operated by the same company that you originated your trip with. 

Here's the kicker:  There were two different RR systems at Norton (and I'm pretty sure they both had terminus[termini?)] there) that offer the opportunity to take one of their trains, travel in a northerly direction, and change to a named train that's the same company as the one you left Norton on.

Correct answer (try it without the OGR first!) will be to name both originating RR's, the transfer point or points, and the likeliest "name" train(s) you'll transfer onto to spend the least amount of time on a layover (assume all trains are on time).   Both RR companies were Class One and even the youngest among you would recognize the names, although of course they are now history.  .  

Excellent answer includes the faster of  the two journeys Norton, VA to Chi, IL. 

Superb answer includes the name of the midwestern city or cities where you'd change trains again if you were traveling coach, to what different railroad company or companies, and to the likeliest named train you'll connect with (again, assume all the trains are on time).

It might be fun to try this without the OGR, at least in the beginning.  Don't quote fares; it will most likely show someone's researching the matter and I'd like to leave the fare structure open as a further question in case of a tie. 

Have fun, guys and gals!  -  a.s.             Big Smile  

 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:57 PM

al-in-chgo
Don't quote fares; it will most likely show someone's researching the matter and I'd like to leave the fare structure open as a further question in case of a tie. 

This might have been a competitive fare, even though one starting road was from one region and the other starting road was from another region, which had much the same fare structure as the region of both of the ending roads.

Johnny

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:12 PM

.C&O or B&O to Cincinnati...

 

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:47 PM

henry6

.C&O or B&O to Cincinnati...

 

Sorry, neither one.  -  a.s.

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, March 07, 2009 7:09 PM

L&N to Corbin, KY and N&W to Devon, WV?

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:53 PM

 

wanswheel

L&N to Corbin, KY and N&W to Devon, WV?

 

L&N is correct, but N&W -- right road, wrong transfer point.  Hint:  It's still called "Nature's Air-Conditioned City" and is just across the state line from a much smaller community with the same name.  -  a.s.

 

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:25 PM

Bluefield and then right up through Devon to Cincinnati on N&W, yes?

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:38 PM
wanswheel
Bluefield and then right up through Devon to Cincinnati on N&W, yes?

Yup!  Now, who can suggest name trains to change to at Corbin, KY and at Bluefield, WV?  Both trains go to Cincinnati.  A reminder: you are traveling coach class.  If you'd like to guesstimate the fare, it's one way with no excursion or RT discounts, all the way Norton - Chicago. 

 

 

 

al-in-chgo

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