Diesel Quiz pt. IV

[PBenham]

Now, when DL&W and Erie merged in 1960, they had a lot of Alco and EMD models on their rosters. Many were owned by both. Now, which model group did Erie buy from Alco, that DL&W did not purchase.

Now, DL&W and Erie both bought switchers from Alco and EMD. But Erie bought switchers that the DL&W didn't buy. Whose were they? 

So, Which switchers did DL&W buy that were not bought by Erie.

Finally, both DL&W and Erie hosted demonstrators and test units. Which road bought the demos or test units and which did not. Or did both of them buy demos/test units....

Have Fun, gang

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The answer to the first question is pretty easy: Erie bought 12 PA1's and 2 PA2's and Lackawanna didn't buy any, the others are trickier and I wouldn't know where to start.

[JonathanS]

Erie bought Lima-Hamilton switchers that DL&W did not.

Both Erie and DL&W bought AGEIR boxcab swithers but only DL&W bought the GE-IR hood units.  And while not diesel, DL&W bought GE dual power switchers (battery - pantograph) and DL&W had an isolated yard that was switched using GE steeple cab electrics.

[WSOR 3801]

DL&W also had some tri-power (diesel-pantograph-battery) jobs for the Seacaucus yard.  Ended up calling them the Kiddie Kars.  Was an article in Trains, 1971 about them, written by a fellow who worked for one of the builders, GE maybe.

DL&W had some real early EMC switchers, predating the SWs. 

 

[PBenham]

There are still some answers to be uncovered on this round!

There is another line of Road locomotives waiting to be found, as well as some switchers.

DL&W bought road switchers from a builder that did not make a sale to the Erie, but they tried.

The article 3801 refers to was written by a retired GE test engineer. Now, am I willing to dive into that room full of boxes to find it? 

[WSOR 3801]

July 1971 Trains.  Has a color cover with a USSR P36 4-8-4 on the cover.  Article is "Ohm's vs. Ms".  I could try to scan it in, but then I would have to figure out how to post it.  I doubt Kalmbach would like that, anyways.

FM Train Masters on the DL&W.  They suggested "Why not the H24-66?"  Not sure if Erie had anything from Beloit. 

 

[PBenham]

July 1971 Trains.  Has a color cover with a USSR P36 4-8-4 on the cover.  Article is "Ohm's vs. Ms".  I could try to scan it in, but then I would have to figure out how to post it.  I doubt Kalmbach would like that, anyways.

FM Train Masters on the DL&W.  They suggested "Why not the H24-66?"  Not sure if Erie had anything from Beloit. 

 

Considering that they are charging for scanned articles from past issues I think they would look none too kindly at you if you did that! So, wait until the Easter weekend to do it.

[Mimbrogno]

The answer's easy!

Erie had a pack of Baldwin DRS 4-4-1500s, DRS 6-6-1500s, AS-16s, and AS-616s, including a couple of boosters that were converted from damaged units (B65,B66). Erie was the second largest buyer of DRS 6-6-1500s, after Southern Pacific. They also got the last batch of them to be delievered in September, 1950. Erie purchased many variaties of these units, including units with dynamic braking, MU connections, extra fuel, and steam heating equipment.

- Younsgtown OH - 07/15/56 - {Larry Berger Collection}

- Rochester NY - 06/27/60 - {Larry Berger Collection}

Images linked from George Elwood's website. Many more can be found from the page following:

http://gelwood.railfan.net/el/loco/blh.html

One cannot forget either Erie's fleet of Baldwin switchers, especially their lot of DS 4-4-1000s and S-12's that served them so well. They also had a few DS 4-4-660's and a handfull of DS 4-4-750's.

- Builder Photo {Larry Berger Collection}

Baldwins get no respect! While they are toiling away in humpyards, switching operations, and coal drags, working away quietly and without complaint, EMD's and ALCO's get all the attention while they breakdown or blow up! Baldwins do the dirty work while others get the glory! They lived a tough life, but they were built strong enough to live it!

-Matthew Imbrogno

[PBenham]

We're getting there. There is still one group of power out, and the test unit question is still there, too.

OK, I'll give up on the GM/EMD E8s 810-811, which tested briefly on DL&W prior to their being purchased by the Lackawanna. EMD was confident they would make the sale, painting 810 and 811 in DL&W paint!

The only road Baldwins I've seen were a pair of DRS6-6-1500s working the hump at Bison yard. I was disappointed at how quiet they were. Talking to an ex-EL engineer about them, he told me that they were very temperamental, dying when they decided to do so, with no warning. Their problem lay in their prime movers which were equipped with turbochargers that were likely to fail, without warning. Their electrical equipment was quite robust, but parts were hard to find for them. EL traded them in to EMD for SD45s in 1968.

[Mimbrogno]

It's a shame you didn't get to see more Baldwins in service, when they're cranked up, they are really something! You mention being disapointed at how quite they were. Baldwins are kind of like sleeping dragons, when idling they are tame and surprisingly quiet, but when they are wound up they roar with a mighty rumble. The reason why they idle so quite is that the fuel injectors are open for just a fraction of the cycle, and almost all of the expanding thermal energy is absorbed by the piston instead of being radiated into the air which is a primary source of noise. At low speeds, like in hump service, the engine is not being pushed much as anything above 40% throttle will make the wheels slip because the motors have so much torque and are especially efficient at low speeds.

 The biggest problem these engines had was the turbocharger. The engines are simply too powerfull for the turbocharger to handle. The earlier DRS had an idle speed of 125rpm, and used an Elliot BF-44 turbo. The low RPM and highly efficient fuel burn ment that for a set volume of air the exhaust of a Baldwin was hotter than any other engine. Even with only partial throttle, the engine could reach the limit of the turbocharger's capacity of 1200* F. The turbo was also fed by the engines oil and water supply, and when it got too hot the bearings would blow out and oil would leak, thus blowing all your oil pressure for the engine. The turbo had a maximum overload limit of 1250* F for one 30 minute period every 6 hours. The electrical gear on the other hand had a 2095hp overload limit of 5 minutes per 30 to 60 minutes. Engineer's who are obaying the electrical overload limits could easily exceed the turbocharger's limits 10 times between the first time it was overloaded to the next time it was permisible. The diesel engine was subjecting the turbocharger to conditions that would damage even a jet aircraft engine. They've had occasion to melt the exhaust manifold right off the engine without any failure of the engine itself! Baldwin powerplants (excepting the turbo) are built incredibly tough! 

 Matthew Imbrogno
Mechanical Vollenteer, Arizona Railway Museum
www.azrymuseum.org

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The test units that I'm thinking of were the four GE FDL-powered units lettered Erie 750 and were test beds for the Universal series of locomotives that came out in 1956.  Erie 750 later wound up on UP as 620-621 and 620B-621B.

[PBenham]

The test units that I'm thinking of were the four GE FDL-powered units lettered Erie 750 and were test beds for the Universal series of locomotives that came out in 1956.  Erie 750 later wound up on UP as 620-621 and 620B-621B.

Thanks Paul, I was beginning to wonder if they had been forgotten.

Still out is a fleet of units that Erie had, but not DL&W.

About Baldwin's engine and Turbocharger woes, NYC had bought DRS 4-4-1500s, DR 6-4-1500s and DR 4-4-1500s almost all of which would be re-powered with 567Cs before the last NYC fires were dropped! (H6 2-8-2s@ Cincinnati in 1957) The Collinwood shops had re-powered the "Gravel Gerties" and their road switcher cousins between 1955 and 1960, with most being done in the first two years, 1955-6. 

[PBenham]

It looks like everyone on this thread has forgotten that Erie owned FA-FB sets from Alco. Shame on you, class

[JonathanS]

The test units that I'm thinking of were the four GE FDL-powered units lettered Erie 750 and were test beds for the Universal series of locomotives that came out in 1956.  Erie 750 later wound up on UP as 620-621 and 620B-621B.

Thanks Paul, I was beginning to wonder if they had been forgotten.

While the FDL testbeds were painted in Erie colors while they were undergoing the initial testing they remained the property of GE.  That test was not any different than the previous testing GE did on the Erie with the GTEL double ender or later tests with the initial U50C.  Neither of those were considered here simply because neither were were painted in Erie colors.  Whether the Erie paint was an attempt by GE to inspire a sale or something else we can only speculate (perhaps they hoped that Alco and EMD would not notice that there was an extra set of FAs running and that they looked a bit strange).  That the testing was done on the Erie was because the clearances on Erie mainline could accomodate oversize locomotives and/or locomotives with external test equipment and was not too busy to accomodate testing and the interruptions that causes.

[PBenham]

The test units that I'm thinking of were the four GE FDL-powered units lettered Erie 750 and were test beds for the Universal series of locomotives that came out in 1956.  Erie 750 later wound up on UP as 620-621 and 620B-621B.

Thanks Paul, I was beginning to wonder if they had been forgotten.

While the FDL testbeds were painted in Erie colors while they were undergoing the initial testing they remained the property of GE.  That test was not any different than the previous testing GE did on the Erie with the GTEL double ender or later tests with the initial U50C.  Neither of those were considered here simply because neither were were painted in Erie colors.  Whether the Erie paint was an attempt by GE to inspire a sale or something else we can only speculate (perhaps they hoped that Alco and EMD would not notice that there was an extra set of FAs running and that they looked a bit strange).  That the testing was done on the Erie was because the clearances on Erie mainline could accomodate oversize locomotives and/or locomotives with external test equipment and was not too busy to accomodate testing and the interruptions that causes.

And they were reputed to have done just that!