Union Pacific ALCO FA/FB consists - a question

[Brian M]

The only picture I've ever seen of UP ALCO FA/FBs running with any other sort of diesel locomotive is on page 34 of Classic Trains' "Diesel Victory", where an FA/FB set has a trailing EMD F3B unit.

There are pictures of single FAs, FA/FB, FA/FA, ABA, ABBA and ABBB elsewhere, and even a brilliant one of two full ABBA sets running together in Vol 16 No 1, page 9 of "Diesel Era". Did they ever run in excess of four units under one engineer (eg ABBBA)?

I have a video of an Alco FB running with a PA/PB set, but presume that was later when the PA/Bs were in freight service?

I model 1954, and would be grateful for any relevant and credible information on the prototypical running of ALCO FA/FB units, especially with other makes of power, in the early to mid 1950's.

Thank you in advance of any information recieved.

Brian

Plymouth, UK

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In the 1950's, railroads tended to operate locomotive models in multiple only with their own kind.  You might occasionally something like an FA/RS or F/GP mix because they were almost identical under the carbody or hoods, but mixing models from different builders was virtually unknown.

[Anonymous]

The western divisions of the UP were the first dieselized and the LA&SL got many of the early Alcos. The book 'Los Angeles & Salt Lake Railroad Company' by John Signor has some pictures of Alco ABBAABBA lashups plus quite a few other combinations. Some of the early FM H20's were used with the Alcos, often as helpers. 

Besides Cajon and a few other helper grades, this division has quite a few smaller grades, so trains were assigned plenty of power to get them over the road. 12,000 horsepower was common on high priority tains even during the late steam era using double-headed Challengers and 8 unit diesel lashups continued into the GP9 era.

[JonathanS]

The MU system offered by ALCO in the '40s and early '50s was not compatible with that used by EMD.  In fact even some EMD locomotives were not compatible with other EMD locomotives.  The FT used an oddball MU system that some lines replaced while others kept the FTs as locomotives that could only MU with each other.  The BL1 and BL2 were not offered with MU at all, but the railroads insisted on MU for some deliveries and retrofitted it on many of the others.

The FA1s that UP had would not have been able to MU with the EMDs in the early '50s.  UP may have installed the standard MU wiring later.

[Brian M]

Thank you all for this - I am very grateful.

I've just tried to pick up the Signor book second-hand on the net but was quoted approx. $500 for a copy. The pictures and other combinations in it will have to wait!

UP829 - the "Classic Trains " picture with the EMD F3B behind an FA/B combo dates from June 1950 - would that indicate that it was being deadheaded, and not powered up?

Brian

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for this - I am very grateful.

I've just tried to pick up the Signor book second-hand on the net but was quoted approx. $500 for a copy. The pictures and other combinations in it will have to wait!

UP829 - the "Classic Trains " picture with the EMD F3B behind an FA/B combo dates from June 1950 - would that indicate that it was being deadheaded, and not powered up?

Brian

That date might be a little early, but UP upgraded almost all of their F3's to F7's or F9's fairly quickly in the early 50s. They never had any FT's and the source I have(Kratville's Motive Power of the UP) doesn't mention any upgrades to the FA's, but the book is mainly about steam and there's only 2 paragraphs on the FAs. It does say they came with manual transition, while all the EMD's were automatic. The LA&SL book also has some mid 50's pics of Alcos and EMDs mixed together, so it's likely they upgraded whatever needed to be fixed on the Alco's. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A quick upgrade or modification of the MU system on the FA's sounds likely for UP.  Similarly, they were not shy about regearing when necessary (PA's and 8000-series SD40-2's, among others) so electrical rebuilding to improve utilization would be no big deal.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, not UP but a 5 unit Alco lash-up heading a freight is shown on page 70 of Dick Wallin's GM&O Color Pictorial. It shows an FA, followed by a PA (elephant style) and three more cabless or cab units.  Caption doesn't specify and I can't tell either. The date is quite late, September 10th, 1960.

[Brian M]

Thanks again. So it does seem that it is probable UP ALCO FA/Bs could well be lashed with EMD products in 1954, but that consists usually remained "pure" ALCO.

The 5-ALCO GM&O consist is good news too - any offers of information on whether UP ever did more than a 4-unit consist of ALCOs (or with anything else?). The UP FA, I believe, never had MU connections on the front end, so it would never be anywhere but the front or back in a consist (at least under the control of a single engineer).

I tracked down a far cheaper SH copy of the Signor book via the internet from a bookshop in Hampden, Connecticut - it should be with me soon. Splendid! What a great thing this forum is!

Brian, Plymouth, UK

[Anonymous]

Thanks again. So it does seem that it is probable UP ALCO FA/Bs could well be lashed with EMD products in 1954, but that consists usually remained "pure" ALCO.

The 5-ALCO GM&O consist is good news too - any offers of information on whether UP ever did more than a 4-unit consist of ALCOs (or with anything else?). The UP FA, I believe, never had MU connections on the front end, so it would never be anywhere but the front or back in a consist (at least under the control of a single engineer).

I tracked down a far cheaper SH copy of the Signor book via the internet from a bookshop in Hampden, Connecticut - it should be with me soon. Splendid! What a great thing this forum is!

Brian, Plymouth, UK

The Kratville book does mention that one FA unit, #1623, was equipped for nose to back operation, but doesn't say if it came that way from Alco or was converted by UP at some later date.

[Brian M]

Thank you AGAIN, UP 829 - curiouser and curiouser!  Upon your information, I've looked in vain for any pictures of 1623 itself to see if there's any sign of mu hoses, but sadly can't locate any so far. No reference to this in either the "Diesel Era" article, or Don Strack's "Diesels of the Union Pacific  The Classic Era - Volume 2". Like you, I wonder when this was done? And why?

Hmm - I may have to re-decal one of my FA's to #1623, and fish out some MU cables...  But I suppose only photographic evidence of this locomotive running other than a lead or trailing unit would nail it completely, so I'll wait awhile.

I presume that the UP never ran anything more than a 4-unit ALCO FA/FBset, as there have been no further replies on this matter.

Brian

 

 

[rtstasiak]

Some UP FAs and FBs were leased by the Canadian Pacific Railroad during the winter of 1962 and 1963.  In the Trackside Niagara Peninsula book, these units are shown running as a block.  My recollection is that the CPR standardized its MU and upgraded most of its early diesel fleet--even Baldwins--and would not have leased units that could not be easily assimilated into the 'Cult of the Beaver.'  Kidding aside, the CP mixed power freely and frequently, which is definitely fun from the railfan angle.

[Anonymous]

UP 3985 & 844 are the best.

[prbharris]

I model 1954, and would be grateful for any relevant and credible information on the prototypical running of ALCO FA/FB units, especially with other makes of power, in the early to mid 1950's.

Brian

As a UK modeller of the US, I found the article interesting too. I model the SP where there are a number of examples of mixed diesel consists.

In the 'early 60's'  Tom Dill's  "SP's Scenic Coast Line" p 45 shows a mixed EMD and Alco lash-up leading 'The Lark'. There is an extraordinary photo on p19 of an SD-45, F7A, TrainMaster, F7B and an F7A, on a freight, tho' this was in 1968.

Jim Boyd in "SP in Color Vol 2" says that it was only by the mid 50's that, after running F's in A-B-B-A sets from their inception in the '40's, they "gained an understanding of the versitility of the diesel and began to vary the locomotive consists to fit specific needs."

Even so, it seems that consists on the SP were only various F combinations until the early '60's when other locos were put into consists. However, the F3 and F7 units were used as helpers for some steam hauls over the coast grades in the Cuestas in the early '50's.

Best of luck with the UP.

Peter Harris
Nottinghamshire UK

[Brian M]

Thanks, Peter.  Yes - seems that the SP were very happy to mix'n'match in the 60's. I also run SP, and have validated through references the prototypical running 2 two Black Widow Trainmasters or a TM and GP9 combo on weekend 50s freight duty.  I'm becoming particularly interested in the San Luis Obispo area, and have a couple more Cab Forwards on order.  I await the day when upgraded SP 4-8-2s and 4-8-4s become available. However, the UP interest is resulting in a freelanced joint-operating line which allows prototypical SP locos and lots of UP ALCOs, but based on the single-track SP Coast line with loco changes, double-heading and pushers. "It's MY party!" etc.

Brian