Montrealer aka Bootlegger

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I'm pretty sure that Washington Terminal had three C-1 0-8-0's.

[daveklepper]

And how many 0-6-0's?

[wanswheel]

Since there's already a lot about my father on this thread, excerpt from 1970 AP article. https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SCS19700623.1.17     The Broadway Limited: Old and worn but comfortable, it can take travelers out of New York in late afternoon and have them in Chicago early the next morning in time for a full day of business. The $90 fare, including pullman charges, is about the same as the cost of flying out that afternoon and getting a hotel room. Yet the Broadway on a recent trip had only 10 per cent occupancy, according to a steward. Porters were idling in empty sleepers. "These trains are the best kept secret in the world," said Joe MacDonald, one of the few passengers aboard. "There's just no effective merchandising." MacDonald, a buyer for Continental Can, travels 50,000 miles a year by rail. He has a standing bet with everyone in his New York office that he can spend less business time traveling by train than they can by flying. Nobody has collected yet, he says. But MacDonald says the girl in his New York office who makes 30,000 reservations a year for the company won't handle his itinerary. He says she tells him: "If you want to go by train, I don't have time to fool with it, please do it yourself."

Mike MacDonald

[Miningman]

Thats quite the excerpt and very telling...first realization is the price of things before the oil crisis and second stunner is how far passenger service by 1970 had been abandoned and out of the minds of the public. 10% occupancy on the Broadway, the office gal refusing to book travel for the salesman and all by 1970 clearly demonstrates the success of the effort to rid us all of this relic from the past. 

As Trains asked back then " Who shot the passenger train". 

[Overmod]

Those prices don't reflect oil price shock except peripherally; you're seeing the consequence of Nixon abandoning Bretton Woods and letting the dollar float.

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from Congressional Record

HEARINGS BEFORE THE SURFACE TRANSPORTATION SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, UNITED STATES SENATE ...ON NOMINATIONS OF JUNE 6, 1974.  MARY J. HEAD, CHARLES LUNA, JOSEPH MacDONALD, GERALD P. MORGAN, AND EDWARD L. ULLMAN, TO BE MEMBERS, BOARD OF DIRECTORS, NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORP.

Senator HARTKE. ...I understood the Amtrak Board was supposed to function not as the handmaiden of the Department of Transportation, the Office of Management and Budget, or even as an arm of the Congress. We want you to do a good job, but we want you to do it with the freedom to act. Because of the fact that we have 5 nominees to consider this afternoon, I am going to ask all of you to sit together as a panel at the witness table; there are several questions I would like to ask the group as a whole, and I would like to have you answer in turn. I want you to feel free, and to be as frank as you can in your answers. We will try to keep this hearing as brief as possible, and yet cover the materials that are necessary to be covered. If the five will please come forward. Ladies and gentlemen, I first want to ask all the nominees whether they feel they are going to have the requisite time to devote to their Board duties. Because of the greatly increased needs for Amtrak service, I would not at all be surprised to see several meetings of this Board each month. Furthermore, the issues to be faced by this Board will be more difficult ones than were faced in the past, which means each Board member will have to do more homework in order to be prepared. In other words, these are not pro forma positions merely to insert in a list of your Who's Who applications or biography. I wonder if you are going to have the time needed. I will start with you, Mr. Luna.

Mr. LUNA. I will, sir. I will have plenty of time.

Senator HARTKE. All right. Mr. Morgan?

Mr. MORGAN. I certainly will, sir.

Senator HARTKE. Mrs. Head?

Mrs. HEAD. Yes, sir, I will.

Dr. ULLMAN. I expect to, also.

Mr. MACDONALD. I shall, too, sir.

Senator HARTKE. One of the things I am hoping the Board will do in taking on an activist role is to ride the train themselves. Three of you have been nominated as consumer representatives. I would expect that the consumer representatives would ride the trains, but I am also interested in the intentions of the other nominees. Let me ask you all: Do you plan to ride the trains and inspect them as a Board member would in order to find things out, rather than rely simply on information? I not only ride the trains, but go to the stations. There was an instance called to my attention this morning, which I have not had a chance to verify, but I would imagine that it is probably correct, that in some cases the Amtrak has been overselling, and I think they left a group of people stranded at one of the stations. I would imagine how I would feel, and I think you could imagine how you would feel if that occurred to you, especially if it is 9:30 at might… So, Mr. Luna?

Mr. LUNA. I ride the trains all the time.

Mr. MORGAN. I have done a great deal of riding the trains. I ride them every morning to work.

Senator HARTKE. I am talking about also the other routes.

Mr. MORGAN. I have been all over the country by train.

Senator HARTKE. How about you, Mrs. Head?

Mrs. HEAD. I expect to ride them more and more all the time, and I look forward to doing so.

Senator HARTKE. How about you, Dr. Ullman?

Dr. ULLMAN. I thought you would ask that question, so I rode the train here from the Pacific coast.

Senator HARTKE. Do you want to make a comment?

Dr. ULLMAN. I don't think there would be time to make all the comments.

Mr. MACDONALD. Since the first of the year, sir, I have moved my wife and myself to Chicago. We went up through Montreal on Amtrak. I have made two trips to the west coast, one with my wife accompanying me, another trip to Denver, a trip to Toronto, one to Detroit, a trip to Lima, Ohio, a trip with my wife to Atlantic City, and I came this time into Newark and then came down on the Metroliner last night.

Senator HARTKE. That is a very good start. Mr. MacDonald has set an example for the rest of you to try to keep up with. The next question is for the consumer nominees. The Rail Passenger Service Act has contained provisions requiring consumer representatives on the Board of Directors ever since its passage in 1970, but the Nixon administration has never sent up a satisfactory nominee. This means you three individuals are the first viable consumer nominees to the Amtrak Board, and your conduct will do much to give content to the definition of what a consumer representative will do on the Board. Therefore, I am interested in your individual conception of your roles as consumer representatives. We will start out with you, Mr. Morgan.

Mr. MORGAN. I don't believe I was nominated as a consumer representative, Mr. Chairman.

Senator HARTKE. Pardon me. I made a mistake. Mrs. Head? I will start with you.

Mrs. HEAD. I am very proud to have been nominated as a consumer representative, and I think I see my role in terms of trying to judge what the consumers all across the country would feel about riding the railroads, and not just what I might think they would feel. That is one of the reasons I think it is important for me to ride the trains, and visit with the people and then try to reflect on that experience as a Board member. I assume you are also asking if I expect to represent consumers as opposed to the feelings of the Department or the Congress, and yes, I expect to be independent in that way.

Senator HARTKE. Let me say to all of you in line with that, that you must recognize that what we are dealing with here basically is 30-year-old equipment in most cases. I can't think of anyone who is riding a 30-year-old airplane today, or a 30-year-old automobile today, except as an antique operation. How do you feel about that?

Mrs. HEAD. About whether I would ride on a 30-year-old airplane?

Senator HARTKE. All right. How would you feel about that?

Mrs. HEAD. I am not very good at gaging the age of railroad equipment or airplanes.

Senator HARTKE. What I am pointing out is that I think they need new equipment.

Mrs. HEAD. Yes, I think so, too.

Senator HARTKE. Dr. Ullman?

Dr. ULLMAN. I certainly think new equipment is needed. Twenty years is sort of a normal life for equipment, and much less for airplanes. Our fleet is far older than that on the average. So, we are operating by the grace of God, I suppose, although a lot could be done in terms of good shop maintenance. As to that question about how I view myself as a consumer representative, I would say I obviously represent the consumer; that is, the rider on trains. I obviously also represent the citizen and the tax-payer. I particularly am concerned with the fact that a consumer really is not interested in supporting one form of transportation at the expense of another. He just wants to get from point A to point B, and I want to make it as quick and interesting and reasonable for him to do that as possible, and I don't care what form of transportation he takes. He should have the option, and I think railroads need to be developed so he has another alternative. I would like to see Amtrak timetables in every airport in the country, and people knowing how you get there. If buses leave an hour before the train and it is more advantageous to the consumer, let him take it, I would say. So, I think the consumer is not interested in supporting some form of enterprise; he is interested in getting where he wants to go.

Senator HARTKE. All right. Mr. MacDonald?

Mr. MACDONALD. Well, sir, to answer your question, I think I shall look on this responsibility, one, as a continuation of what I have had in my own thinking through all the years. I have written to the Senate Commerce Committee, to you. Senator Hartke, at times in the past when I felt there was an issue important to the people of the country, where I thought that in the interests of the consumer –I wasn't calling him a consumer, but I was thinking of someone like myself who is a consumer, one who actually has used for too many years, we will say, rail passenger services. I thought there was a great unawareness in certain parts of the Government of the fact that there were a lot of us. I know in business I am one of the very few in my own company who travels by rail exclusively. I have a standing bet for many years that I will buy a drink for anybody who has spent more time traveling by air than I do by train. I have been challenged many times, but not successfully. I think that the power structure, because they have not been using the trains, see each other in the airports, on the planes, and they assume we are all flying, so therefore there is nobody who needs a train. I have been traveling and talking with people; there is hardly a trip that I won't be talking with at least 10 or 12 different people in the course of the trip. It might be a vice president of a railroad. Two of the vice presidents of the old New York Central said in the lounge car one day, "We don't want passengers. We make money on freight." I said, "Yes, you guys make money on freight like the Mets win ball games, one out of three." I don't want to bring in the New York Central. I am pretty aware, however, of the great desire for rail passenger service throughout the United States, the fact that people will go to great lengths to take a train, drive 200 miles out west to get to the nearest passenger train. They are quite unhappy that there is a line that did have service going right through their home town that doesn't anymore. I was well aware of the disaster in the State of Vermont when the Boston & Maine Railroad, for reasons that had nothing to do with the profitability of the train, dropped the old Montreal-Washingtonian. When I called Ed Perkins, the general manager, I said, "How would you like to have the Montrealer back?" He said, “We would love to; we made money on that train. It was the Boston-Maine that got rid of it." I am aware of the need, and I am aware of the shortcomings. I have the carpet tack I pulled out of a refurbished room last week. They had driven a nail in crookedly, and I pulled it out so nobody else would get hurt. I have been on trains that have been delayed, trains that had no light, heat, food, and so on, and I have been on trains that were in excellent condition. So I would like to bring to the Board of Amtrak perhaps a knowledge and understanding not only of what we all need, but why it isn't happening. I grew up with the railroad. My father was a locomotive engineer. I learned the insides of things. I spent a number of years in the headquarters of a very small, but a class 1 railroad, where the older people, I guess they took a shine to me and they taught me a lot of things. I think I can understand when we are on the "Broadway" when we lose 40 minutes, that the signal was against us, and that is why we wind up 40 minutes late. I know why, and I am not deceived by some of the publicity. I hope to bring that background to bear in some way for the improvement of the rail passenger service to people in the United States.

Senator HARTKE. Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from Congressional Record 

Statement of Sen. George B. Aiken…It is a pleasure to introduce to you Joseph MacDonald today. I support the Presidents nomination of Joe MacDonald as one of the three consumer representatives for the Amtrak Board of Directors. Mr. MacDonald is a member of an old railroad family. I believe he has done more for eastern transportation than anyone else in recent times. Joe MacDonald was honored in 1972 by the New England Governors Conference which gave him his public service award in recognition of his effort which led to the 1972 Amtrak decision to route the Montrealer through New England and Vermont when it was re-established in international rail passenger service between Montreal and Washington. The latest report shows that service in this train has increased 43 percent over the last year and it has the best record of running on time of any Amtrak train. Only a shortage of equipment has prevented the Montrealer from showing a much better record. Joe's interest in railroads began in his elementary and secondary years when he worked part-time for the Central Vermont Railway. During college days, he organized special passenger train service for his classmates. He has shown interest in rail service all his life. I believe he will ably represent the consumer as an Amtrak director. His resume and a longer statement have been given to the committee for the record.

Biographical Sketch of Joseph V. MacDonald

Born at: St. Albans, Vermont, October 13, 1914. (St. Albans is called the "Railroad City" in Vermont). Parents: The late Joseph A. MacDonald, native of Summerside, Prince Edward Island, Canada, locomotive engineer on the Central Vermont Railway; and Bertha E. (Huntington) MacDonald, native of Augusta, Maine. Two uncles, the late Daniel and the late Marshall MacDonald, were also locomotive engineers on the Central Vermont Railway. All three MacDonald brothers ran The Montrealer and The Washingtonian between Montreal and White River Junction, Vt. My father, Joseph A., retired with the distinction of having been the only man in engine service on the Central Vermont who had never once in his career had to "give up his engine on the road." He was taken out of his regular turn to run Winston Churchill's special train to the Quebec Conference during World War II, handling the train from White River Jct. to Montreal, because of his reputation as a "smooth man with the throttle and brakes." Education: Attended St. Mary's and Holy Angels' grade schools in St. Albans, and was graduated from Bellows Free Academy (St. Albans High School) in 1932. Received Harvard Club Award and University of Vermont Scholarship Award for highest grades. Managing Editor of high school magazine. Graduate of the University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Ind., 1936; Bachelor of Arts, magna *** laude; 21st in class. Majored in sociology, with minors in English and economics (including economics of transportation). Member of Notre Dame Band. Earned one-half of college expenses. Family: Married September 2, 1939, to Miss Beatrice V. Dillon, of Ware, Massachusetts, a Registered Nurse and graduate of the Mercy Hospital Training School for Nurses, Springfield, Mass. Nine children (7 sons, 2 daughters), present ages 19 to 33. Employment: From 1926 to 1934, during grade and high school, worked part time and 18 months full-time as messenger in headquarters Dispatchers' Office of Central Vermont Railway in St. Albans, and a summer as timekeeper on track gang. This employment brought me into intensive contact with all facets of management and operation of a Class I railroad, and I enjoyed the tutelage and counsel of rail officials at all levels. It was the equivalent for its day of what in modern industry is called a management training course. It was my intention at the time to return to the CV after graduation from college, and I was offered a job by the late E. F. Deschenes, then General Manager, on his staff. His untimely death, and the Depression, eliminated this opportunity. 1936-41: Western Union Telegraph Company and Globe Wireless, Ltd., New York. N.Y. Communications clerk. 1941-45: Standard Garment Company, Inc., New York, N.Y. Assistant to Vice President. 1945-52: Davenport Besler Corporation, Davenport, Iowa. Special Assistant to President, Standardization Engineer, and Production Manager. Standardized design of diesel locomotives for quantity production of common parts with customized assembly, to enable profitable transition from large-scale Government orders for steam locomotives to world-wide orders for small diesels that had previously been unprofitable. 1952-53: J. I. Case Company, Bettendorf, Iowa. Production Control Supervisor, in assembly-line production of farm machinery. 1954 present: Continental Can Company, Inc., 633 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017, as Corporate Buyer of Capital Equipment until November 30, 1973, and since December 1, 1973 at 5745 East River Road, Chicago, Illinois 60631, at their Metal Operations Head Office, as Manager of Purchases, Production Equipment. Negotiated purchases of $20-$40 million annually of specially engineered can-making machinery, printing presses, plastics machinery, and air pollution control equipment. Transportation Activities: In 1930-31, I organized and promoted five special trains to enable St. Albans High School students and townspeople to attend out-of-town football games. In 1935, after the New York Central RR had declined to reduce the $64 round- trip fare South Bend, Ind.-New York, I negotiated with the Grand Trunk Western R.R. a special $18 round-trip fare for a special train for the Notre Dame Band to attend the N.D.-Army football game in New York City, an arrangement that continued annually until World War II ended such trips. On May 11, 1970, I appeared as a public witness before the Interstate Commerce Commission hearing in New York City, opposing the discontinuance of all 34 Penn Central trains west of Buffalo and Harrisburg. The I.C.C. ordered retention of 14 of the trains, which thus preserved passenger service until Amtrak could take over. In January 1971, I appeared as a public witness at the hearing by the New York State Assembly Subcommittee on Railroads, regarding service in the State after "Railpax" (Amtrak). In July 1971, I prepared the original business proposal for restoration of New York-Montreal rail passenger service via New England. I conducted personal negotiations with the Canadian National Railways that resulted in their written statement of December 13, 1971, that they were "ready and willing to cooperate in any plan to restore service, provided of course such plan favours C.N.'s commercial interests." – this being a complete reversal of the position they had taken with the Chairman of Amtrak's incorporators the previous January. On November 10, 1971, I appeared as a public witness before the House Subcommittee on Transportation and Aeronautics in their hearings on the Amtrak Funding Bill, resulting in the addition of International Service to the Amtrak Basic System. I participated in the 13-month civic campaign that resulted in restoration of The Montrealer and The Washingtonian between Washington, D.C. and Montreal on September 29, 1972. This restoration returned rail passenger service to the States of Vermont and New Hampshire after absence of such service since September 3, 1966. On September 15, 1972, I was recipient of the New England Governors' Conference Public Service Award for this effort. Other Public Service Activities: From 1950 to 1971, each Monday night I gave the Introductory Lecture to the new-corners at the Job Finding Forum, sponsored by the Advertising Club of New York. Rail Consumer Experience: Starting with my first ride in an upper berth en-route to college in 1932, and with my first business trip in 1941, I have traveled long distance almost exclusively by rail, by business travel via Amtrak: averages 50,000 miles per year. For 19 years I also commuted daily via the Long Island Rail Road. I have taken my wife and 7 of my children on 10 rail transcontinental business trips on the family plan, and numerous other shorter business and vacation trips by rail, using both coach and sleeper. As my children have gone to college, they have made all their trips back and forth by rail, and my wife makes frequent trips via rail to visit her relatives. During these trips, from conversation with literally thousands of rail travelers I have learned their reactions to the service encountered. I have seen the best and the worst of U.S. and Canadian rail passenger service. Being able to "speak their language" I have been given an inside view of their problems by rail personnel, from train crews to railroad presidents. This experience, coupled with my earlier transportation and current business background, has enabled me to appraise the performance of Amtrak, and its announced plans and programs, from the viewpoint of the consumer of Amtrak's services.

[Miningman]

Terrific read...thats your Dad, right? 

Sure hope you were one of the 7 out of 10 that got to go on those Transcontinental trips! 

[wanswheel]

Yup. 1960 NY-LA-SF, westbound UP Challenger, eastbound California Zephyr.

[rcdrye]

Amtrak named a couple of ex-UP 10-6 sleepers after Joseph MacDonald and his wife.  They were used up to the end of Montrealer service in 1995.

[wanswheel]

Thanks Rob. They were Santa Fe though. Pine Grove and Pine Beach.

[wanswheel]

https://archive.org/stream/middleburyNewspapers_1972-09-14/14198#page/n0/mode/2up

[rcdrye]

wanswheel

Thanks Rob. They were Santa Fe though. Pine Grove and Pine Beach.

I went back and looked them up later.  The Montrealer's regular 10-6 cars before then were UP "Pacific" series, with an occasional SP Sunset Limited car showing up, which is why I pegged them as ex-UP.  The Santa Fe cars were seldom if ever part of the Montrealer.  I rode both of the "Pine" cars in the 1970s on other trains.  Except for the letterboard treatment and the pre-HEP A/C, all three series were nearly identical (UP and SP had Electromechanical, "Pine" cars originally had steam ejector).

[wanswheel]

rcdrye

 

 

wanswheel

The Santa Fe cars were seldom if ever part of the Montrealer. 

Well they definitely were at least once in October 1978. 

https://history.amtrak.com/archives/i-amtrak-news-i-november-1978

[rcdrye]

True enough - We also saw occasional ex-NYC "Valley" and occasional ACL/SAL equipement.  On the other hand I always rode coach on the Montrealer in 1978...  One of the photos in the archives shows the baggage-dorm conversion of one of the 1953 ACF US Army hospital cars.  The other conversion used on the Montrealer was the far more famous "Le Pub".  Even after the HEP conversion, when a lot of weird and wonderful equipment was retired, the Montrealer was still a great way to get from the "Upper Valley" to New York, Washington or even Texas.

[samfp1943]

[quote user="rcdrye"]

Amtrak named a couple of ex-UP 10-6 sleepers after Joseph MacDonald and his wife.  They were used up to the end of Montrealer service in 1995.

 

[/quote] Not wxactly'new' but very interested and getting started following CLASSIC TRAINS....Was reading back some stuff on the Internet, tr: AMTRAK and some of the " New regeime's[make that CEO. Richard Armstrong's 'stiring the pot' and remaking our Nat'l Rail Service into a financial success(!) ]    

I ain't holding my breath!     While surfing around I found some interesting quotes, other things I had not known and having a general 'immersion'    Found a piece in a Battle Creek, Mi. newspaper that was sort of interesting, and I dug it out because it shows a certain amount of claivoyance on the part of one individual[IMHO]; he happened to be a Consumer Advocate, nominated to the AMTRAK, after having languished while Pres. Nixon, was 'frying HIS other fish', before his last presiential junket back to California.    Liked below[in part]  @ https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/204266912/

FTA:"...WASHINGTON - An Amtrak director says he fears the national passenger train sys-' tem could go broke in the next two or three years simply trying to maintain the expenses of its Boston-to-Washing-tonruns. Joseph V. MacDonald, one of 13 Amtrak directors, said the serious problems will arise as a result of the ConRail plan for restructuring freight lines in the Northwest and Midwest. He pointed out that the U S. Railway Association, which created CVONRail, provides that freight systems shouldn't have to bear the tremendous cost of upgrading the rail lines on the Boston-to-Washington runcommonly called the Northeast Corridor. That leaves Am track to pick up the bill, McDonald said. He also questions the need to set up a parallel line along the corridor, to be used exclusively by freight trains. In a letter to the editor of the Burlington (Vt.) Free Press, in which he laid out his misgivings, he said, "The cost of the upgrading of the parallel lines is to be borne by Amtrak. US-RA offered no estimate of the cost I suspected it should be in the billions."

Article FRM:"Battle Creek Enquirer from Battle Creek, Michigan · Page 22

Publication:Battle Creek Enquirer   Issue Date: Sunday, October 26, 1975 (P.22)

And then there was this piece,linked from AMTRAK's site @ https://history.amtrak.com/archives/heritage-sleeping-car-i-joseph-v.-macdonald-i-1984

 And further from that article:"...n October, 1978, at a ceremony held at the St. Albans, Vt. station, Amtrak renamed the car the Joseph V. MacDonald in honor of a former board member who had died earlier that year. MacDonald, once a locomotive engineer, served on the board from 1974 to 1978. He had been influential in the campaign to establish the Montrealer (Montreal-Washington) in the early 1970s. Car No. 2991 was named in honor of his wife, Beatrice..."

A tip of the Kromer Cap to Wanswheel[Mike] and his folks! 

The cars were apparently dropped out of the AMTRAK fleet in the 1990's... Anyone here have any idea about where they wound up?

[rcdrye]

Pine Grove (Joseph V. McDonald) survived at least until 2003 in private ownership.  Pine Beach (Beatrice McDonald) was likely scrapped.