Chicago-Florida business

[Anonymous]

When was through-service from Chicago to Florida inaugurated?
Are there any other Chicago-Florida trains worth mentioning beside the South Wind or the Seminole? How many hours did trains need for this runs?
When Amtrak took over in 1971, did it also run Chicago-Florida trains or was this service discontinued?

[passengerfan]

The finest of all Chicago - Miami streamliners was the IC City of Miami. Both the IC City of Miami and PRR South Wind both operated NP Dome sleepers in the winter months for seceral years but the IC repainted those they operated each fall into IC colors and repainted them for NP service each spring when they were returned to the NP. The South Wind operated their leased NP dome sleepers in NP colors. Originally their were three coach streamlined trains providing daily service between Chicago and Miami the FEC owned Dixie Flagler , PRR owned South Wind and IC City of Miami. By the early 1950's t6he PRR and IC were operating the South Wind and City of Miami every other day and the Dixie Flagler operated as one consist. All three trains operated via different routes and they all operated to the same end points in the same time. Heavyweight Pullmans first appeared as WW II came to an end and streamlined sleepers operated in all three trains during the 1950's. By most travellers the IC was the finest of the three.
After Amtrak took over they operated a train named the Floridian that followed the former South Wind route closest but it steadily lost passengers as the timetable was extended until the point where a fast horse almost could have beaten the train between Chicago and Florida.

[daveklepper]

All three trains orginally operated over the FEC Jacksonville-Miami, and over the ACL Jacksonville-Tampa, and all three trains, each operating every third day, served both coasts. The City of Miami operated over the Illinois Central via Birmingham, and the ACL (from Waycross?) to reach Jacksonville, the Dixie Flagler operated over the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, the Central of Georgia, and the ACL, via Atlanta, while the Florida Special operated via the Pennsy, the Louisville and Nashville, and the ACL. Sometime after WWII the C&EI went freight only and the other two trains became everyotherday trains to make up the difference.

For a while, the IC and ACL continued the old heavyweight through Chicago - Jacksonville train, possibly called the Seminol, if I remember correctly. This was the traditional premier Chicago - Florida heavywieght train in the steam era, had Miami and Tampa connections in Jacksonville and at one time through sleepers. I am unsure when it was inaugurated, but probably as early as the post WW One era.

When the FEC went on strike in the early 60's, the two remaining lightweight trains' Miami sections were rerouted via Orlando and Aurbundale on the ACL, then through a connection at Arbundale to the SAL to the SAL Miami Station, the same route used by the ACL New York and Washington trains that formerly were interchanged with the FEC in Jacksonville, and the route currently used by Amtrak. And afterward, the Tampa section was dropped as separate train south of Jacksonville with through cars being handled on the same trains as cars from the New York trains. This was the condition operated after the SAL-ACL merger into SCL. But I believe the Miami sections stayed a separate train up to Amtrak. The comments about equpment check with my memories. I can say that toward the startup of Amtrak, the Florida Special was in pretty bad shape, with lots of slow orders on the PRR line north of Louisville, possibly the worst dining car service ever had in a PRR operated diner (usually pretty wonderful), and parts missing in the roomettes, late operation, you name it! Come to think of it, of course, it was no longer PRR, it was Penn Central, without a change of name on the letterboard! They even tried to drop the through sleeper and make it an all-coach train! But the IC did a good job at keeping the City of Miami in reasonably good shape all the way to Amtrak, and dining car service never suffered.

[Anonymous]

And how long (how many hours) did these trains need for the run?
Have all these trains been painted in one color scheme for the whole train, or did the cars keep the colors of their railroad?
I saw several pictures of the South Wind departing in Chicago with ACL E-Units. As far as i know the ACL net never reached Chicago......
And why did NP transfer it´s dome sleepers in the winter to these trains? Was the North Coast Limited route so "unscenic" in the winter?

[passengerfan]

FEC – ACL- AB&C - NC&StL – L&N – C&EI
DIXIE FLAGLER
(December 17, 1940)
1,434 miles
By Al

The DIXIE FLAGLER was the name assigned to the former HENRY M. FLAGLER consist beginning December 17, 1940 after the FEC had found the HENRY M. FLAGLER operating a daily round trip between Jacksonville and Miami to be less than profitable. The HENRY M. FLAGLER consist was withdrawn from this route and after a thorough shopping was renamed the DIXIE FLAGLER and assigned to every third day service between Chicago and Miami. There would be two additional seven-car Coach streamliners providing service between Chicago and Miami as well but utilizing different routes. The end points with the CITY OF MIAMI, SOUTH WIND and DIXIE FLAGLER would provide daily service in each direction. The only part of the three streamlined train routes common to all three was the FEC part between Jacksonville and Miami. The DIXIE FLAGLER was powered by a diesel only between Miami and Jacksonville over the FEC tracks. Each of the other operating roads whose tracks the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over provided their own streamlined Pacific Locomotive and Tender. The DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad between Chicago and Evansville, Indiana. From Evansville to Nashville, Tennessee the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Louisville & Nashville Railroad. The Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis Railroad operated the DIXIE FLAGLER between Nashville and Atlanta, Georgia. Between Atlanta and Waycross, Georgia the Atlanta Birmingham and Coast Railway a subsidiary of the ACL operated the DIXIE FLAGLER. The Atlantic Coast Line operated the DIXIE FLAGLER between Waycross and Jacksonville. Finally the DIXIE FLAGLER gained home rails of the FEC at that point for the trip to Miami. This part of the trip was the only part of the DIXIE FLAGLERS trip behind diesel power until after WW II. The DIXIE FLAGLER required 29-1/2 hours for the Chicago – Miami trip in either direction the DIXIE FLAGLER route was 1,434 miles in length for an average speed of just over 48 mph. That wasn’t bad when one takes into account the engine changes and seventeen stops in route.

1008 (C&EI) Streamlined K-2 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Chicago – Evansville)

277 (L&N) Streamlined K-5 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Evansville – Nashville)

536 (NC&STL) Streamlined K-2d 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Nashville – Atlanta)

79 (AB&C) Streamlined J-1 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Atlanta – Waycross)

1510 (ACL) P-5-A 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Waycross – Jacksonville)

1001 (FEC) EMC E3A 2,000 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Jacksonville – Miami)

STUART Baggage 22-Revenue Seat Coach

HOBE SOUND 60-Revenue Seat Coach

DELRAY BEACH 52-Revenue Seat Coach with Stewardess Room

FORT LAUDERDALE 48-Seat Dining Car

HOLLYWOOD 60-Revenue Seat Coach

MELBOURNE 60-Revenue Seat Coach

LAKE WORTH 32-seat Tavern Lounge Bar 21-seat Lounge Observation

IC – C of G – ACL – FEC
CITY OF MIAMI
(December 18, 1940)
1,493 miles
By Al

The Illinois Central inaugurated their seven-car Coach streamliner the CITY OF MIAMI on December 18, 1940 from Chicago. The CITY OF MIAMI was powered by a single EMD E6A 2,000 hp Diesel Passenger Cab Unit. The entire train was painted in an Orange, Palm Green scheme with Scarlet stripes and lettering. Up to and including this new train the IC seemed to have difficulty deciding on a paint scheme for their streamlined trains. The GREEN DIAMOND, ILLINI, MISS LOU, and now the CITY OF MIAMI were all painted in their own distinct paint schemes. The route of the new CITY OF MIAMI took it south from Chicago to Miami by way of Champaign, Centralia, Fulton, Jackson, Birmingham, Column-bus, Waycross, and Jacksonville. The route between Chicago and Birmingham was over IC rails. Between Birmingham and Albany the train traversed the Central of Georgia, and from Albany to Jacksonville the Atlantic Coast Line was used. The FEC operated the train from Jacksonville to Miami. The only engine change to occur on this route was at Jacksonville where the IC E6A 4000 was exchanged for the FEC E3A 1001 to Miami. The IC CITY OF MIAMI was the only one of the three Chicago – Miami lightweight streamlined trains to operate with diesel power over the entire route from the beginning. The CITY OF MIAMI route was 1,493 miles and the train made 25 stops in route only one of which the Jacksonville stop was for an engine change. In spite of the number of stops the diesel proved more than capable of maintaining a 50 mph average. The CITY OF MIAMI consist was the only one of the three Chicago – Miami lightweight stream-lined trains to operate with cars built by Pullman Standard and the only one of the three trains to be diesel powered end terminal to end terminal.

4000 EMD E6A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Chicago – Jacksonville)

1001 EMC E3A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Jacksonville – Miami)

1900 BOUGAINVILLEA Baggage 14 Crew Dormitory 22 Revenue seat Coach Combination

2600 CAMELLIA 52 Revenue seat Coach with Nurses Quarters

2601 JAPONICA 60 Revenue seat Coach

4100 PALM GARDEN 48 seat Dining Car

2602 HIBISCUS 60 Revenue seat Coach

2603 POINSETTIA 60 Revenue seat Coach

3300 BAMBOO GROVE 32 seat Tavern Lounge Bar 22 seat Lounge Observation

PRR – L&N – ACL – FEC
SOUTH WIND
(December 19, 1940)
1,559 miles
By Al

The PRR SOUTH WIND became the third of the Chicago – Miami seven car lightweight streamlined trains to enter service on December 19, 1940. No one would realize from first glance that the SOUTH WIND train set was a Budd stainless steel consist, as the PRR painted the entire train in Tuscan Red with yellow lettering. For power the PRR assigned different semi streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotives between Chicago and Louisville over the PRR tracks. The Louisville & Nashville assigned a streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive for the run between Louisville and Montgomery, Alabama. Between Montgomery and Jacksonville the Atlantic Coast Line assigned the only non-streamlined power along the route generally one of the roads 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotives or 4-8-2 Mountain types. The FEC assigned E3A 1001 for the run between Jacksonville and Miami. The FEC was the only common part of the DIXIE FLAGLER, CITY OF MIAMI and SOUTH WIND routes between Chicago and Miami. The SOUTH WIND route was the longest of the three at 1,559 miles and was the fastest with the train averaging 53 mph including the fifteen stops in route and three engine changes.

1120 PRR Streamlined K-4s 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Chicago – Louisville)

295 L&N Streamlined K-7s 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Louisville – Montgomery)

1506 ACL P-5-A 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender (Montgomery – Jacksonville)

1001 FEC EMC E3A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Jacksonville – Miami)

6700 Baggage 17 Crew Dormitory 18 Revenue seat Coach Combination

4022 60 Revenue seat Coach

4023 60 Revenue seat Coach

4518 48 seat Dining Car

4020 60-revenue seat Coach

4021 60 Revenue seat Coach

1126 Buffet 16 seat Dinette 35 seat Lounge Observation

You also asked about the NP dome sleepers. The North Coast Limited operated two Dome coaches and two dome sleepers during peak travel periods in each consist during the winter months traffic did not warrant as much sleeping car space as summers so the NP leased several dome sleepers during the winter months.

TTFN Al

[daveklepper]

I stand corrected on the routes. I am also unsure whether the Dixie Flagler ever had sleepers or a Tampa through-car connection before it was discontinued. I was only familiar with the South Wind and the City of Miami, which I rode several times in the post WWII era, and both trains at that time had Tampa through cars and sleepers, down to only one Miami sleeper in the Penn Central days, the last time I rode it. By the time I rode the two trains, diesel power was used all the way, obviously. The South Wind did for a time run without engine change from Chhicago to Jacksonville and PRR, L&N, and ACL power was used on a pool basis. I believe by the time I rode the train the Nashville Chatanooga and St, Louis had already been merged into the Louisville and Nashville. Anyway, that it why you saw the ACL units running into Chicago, and similarly, PRR units ran into Jacksonville. After the FEC strike, FEC units were only borrowed occasionally at beginning, but then not used at all. And an engine change at Jacksonville was usual, and sometimes the train reversed direction because the FEC tracks were the only tracks leaving the south end of the Jacksonville station, and all north to Miami trains either reversed direction or made a "Y" backup move in or out of the station (usually into the station). Again, the Illinois Central really did a fine job with its City of Miami right up to the end, and occasionally the train would run 20 cars long. I think for a period there were also through cars, Miami - St. Louis on this train.

[Anonymous]

DeLuxe asked when through Chicago to Florida service was inaugurated. Through service predates WWI and, I believe, 1900. I think the first of the Dixie Route trains was inaugurated in the 1890s.

Trains I know of (descriptions of routes, e.g., "the old Dixie Flagler route" are approximations; a lot of this information is from the PRRTHS chronology):

South Wind, Jacksonian, Florida Arrow, South Atlantic Limited on the old South Wind route.

Flamingo, Chicago and Florida Special, and Southland on the L&N Cincinnati to Altanta line

Royal Palm, Royal Palm Deluxe, New Royal Palm, Ponce de Leon, Florida Special and Florida Sunbeam on the Southern Cincinnati to Jacksonville line

Floridan, City of Miami, Seminole, Sunchaser on the old City of Miami route

Dixieland, Dixiana, Dixie Flagler, Dixie Flyer, Dixie Mail, Dixie Limited, Chicago and Florida Limited, and (I think) Dixie Express on the old Dixie Flagler route.

Also a Florida Limited (later Chicago and Florida Limited; perhaps Chicago Florida Limited) operating via the Big Four north of Cincinnati

The City of Miami, the South Wind, and the Dixie Flagler originally operated on 29:30 schedules. Previously, it appears that the fastest service had been the Dixieland on a schedule of about 33-1/2 hours. These three trains were all coach until April 1949 when they got coaches to compensate for the discontinuance of the Sunchaser, Dixieland, and Florida Arrow.

The Dixie Flagler was eventually renamed the Dixieland and discontinued in November 1957, as was the Southland to the west coast of Florida (it was combined with the Dixie Flyer in Atlanta and became a Chicago to Jacksonville train with one through sleeper to the west coast of Florida). To compensate, the South Wind got Chicago to St. Petersburg and Chicago to Sarasota coaches and sleepers. I assume this is also when the City of Miami was assigned west coast cars.

Some of these trains ran for a very short time, due to name changes or WWII.

[Anonymous]

Passenger Fan's got the routes and history of the three trains correct. Just a couple of adders:
The City of Miami did indeed carry through coaches from St. Louis. These were added to the main train from Chicago at Carbondale. I remember sitting in the CM observation car at Carbondale where an 0-6-0 would couple onto it and several rear coaches and shunt us onto a siding. The switcher would then pick up the St. Louis cars and add them to the middle of the train. The 0-6-0 would recouple to the rear of the observation car and recouple us behind the St. Louis cars. Car Knockers would come down the entire length of the train checking for cracked wheels, etc. After an air brake test we'd be on our way the whole operation having taken about 15 minutes as I recall.

Originally the three Chi-Fla streamliners were all coach and ran only to Miami. West coast passengers, of which I was one, had to change trains at Jacksonville and take the connecting ACL Weat Coast Champion from New York to Tampa, St. Petersburg and Sarasota. In the late 1940's or early 50's through Chicago to Miami, Tampa , St. Petersburg and Sarasota sleepers and through coaches to the three west coast points were added. These were carried in the ACL's West Coast Champion and eliminated the change of trains at Jacksonville.

I rode all three trains a number of times from Bradenton on the Sarasota branch to and from Chicago. The Sarasota train would be made up at Tampa and consist of both a Chicago to Sarasota and a New York to Sarasota sleeper and coach and a heavy weight combine baggage RPO, express car (the Jim Crow car) , Leaving Bradenton going north the train crossed the Manatee River on a long wooden trestle with a swing bridge and bridge tender's house in the middle. It would stop and the bridge tender would pass up fresh caught grouper or other fish wrapped in newspaper to the Pullman porters. Those fish would appear on dinner tables in Harlem and on Chicago's south side two nights hence.

Mark

[Anonymous]

Forest mentioned the Sunchaser, Dixie Land and Florida Arrow. These were non-streamlined heavy weight trains which operated only during the Winter season. Each of these ran only every third day so, like the three Chi-Fla stramliners, they provided daily northbound and southbound departures. If I remember correctly they were all or at least mostly all Pullman trains.

Unlike the streamliners, which departed in the morning and were two days and one night enroute, these three heavy weights departed at night and were two nights and one day enroute. I think their overall running times were the same or nearly the same as the streamliners.

Mark

[daveklepper]

When the Seminol, by that time equipped with modernized heavyweights and lightweight cars in streamlined appearance overall, and diesel hauled, was cut from the Florida service (to Jacksonville with through cars), in hung on for a while as a Chicago - Birmingham IC train. With a sleeper for a while, too!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I do remember that in about 1968 or so the Seminole was cut back from a Chicago-Jacksonville to Chicago-Carbondale run and renamed the Shawnee.

The power pool for the South Wind was strictly PRR and ACL/SCL with solid power consists for either road. L&N contributed only on an emergency basis. Power ran through between Chicago and at least Jacksonville. My grandmother lived across the street from the PRR Bernice cutoff and I can recall the oddity of ACL power on the northbound South Wind.

[ZephyrOverland]

A good source for a review of Chicago-Florida service is MIDWEST FLORIDA SUNLINERS, by Lyle Key, Jr. Its long out of print but its worth the search.

[guywe]

I remember riding St. Louis to Ft. Lauderdale (and presumeably back)  in 1948 and 1949 by Pullman through Carbondale, Ill. and Jacksonville and down the FEC.  On one of those trips, I had to change trains in Jacksonville to a coach, where I sat next to a nurse who informed me that the train we were on last night had hit an automobile carrier truck in Georgia and been delayed two hours.  I slept through that wreck.

I also remember riding St. Louis to Naples and back in 1954 and 1955, via Jacksonville and Tampa.  South of Ft. Myers, the train became one F3A and one coach, with maybe one head end car.  I even got to ride in the cab once, nearly hitting a truck that stalled on a crossing near Bonita Springs.  They got the truck off the tracks at the last minute.  Scary!  I believe that was on the ACL.

I don't remember when Amtrak discontinued Chicago--Miami/ Tampa service, but I never understood why.  Amtrak did have a Chicago area to Sanford Auto Train for a while, or maybe that was when Auto Train was a seperate company.

[daveklepper]

Amtrak's Floridian was a notoriously bad time keeper and the service was not much better than it was in Penn Central days, so ridership fell off badly.   Too bad they didn't use the City of Miami route, but that would not have served Atlanta.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Floridian approximately used the former South Wind route and did not serve Atlanta either.  However, it did serve Louisville and Nashville, which the City of Miami route missed.

Auto Train attempted a Louisville-Sanford service.  It started out running as a separate train but was later combined with but kept separate from the Floridian.  In any case, it was not particularly successful and was discontinued some time before Auto Train's collapse.

[Anonymous]

I knwo a lot has been written. Will try to not be too redundant.

They were all coach  trains at first, every third day. When the wintertime pullman trains (Florida Arrow, Dixieland, etc)  were discontinued about 1949 the streamliners picked up heavyweight pullmans from them. The South WInd and the City  got  consistently  streamlined sleeprs more quickly than did the Dixie Flagler.

Not too well known  is that at times some of these trains operated every other day and  2 days out of 3. Especially the SW and the City. I think  Flagler did that only one winter. It's ridership was not as strong. .

In 1954 the Flagler was re-equipped with new coaches and sleepers and  renamed, the Dixieland.

It was discontinued Nov. 1957.Also the Southland 's west coast cars were dropped then.

Thus both the City and the SW got through west coast equipment. The SW's cars were straight off the Dixieland. Some of the Dixieland's  three-years old  cars also went to the Georgian from Chicago to Atlanta.  

 

 

[Anonymous]

Just a couple of more thoughts.

Deluxe asked why the NP domes were used in the winter on these trains. Why was so unscenic on the NP? It was about NP being less busy in the winter, their peak season going from  CHI to West Coast was in the  summer--- the CHI-FLA peak was winter. Just switching around between the seasons as needed, something the pullman company was very good at.

The Floridian was discontinued as part of sweeping budget cuts by Amtrak in 1979.

[Anonymous]

My apologies to passenger trainfran--I see the question about NP cars had been answered.

One thing to point out (and my apolgies if somebody has already said this) is that originally the trains had identical departure and arrival times in Chicago and also everywere betweeen Waycross and Miami

This  was to give passengers a "memory  pattern'--that every day at the same time A traini was either leaving Miami for Chicago  or leaving Chicago to Miami, etc.(even though it was from different stations, in Chicago).

This accounts for the South Wiind having the fastest mph and the Dixie Flagler the slowest. It was not a differnce in quality as such between the trains but the fact that each had a different route. The Flagler's route was the shortest, the SW's the longest, thus the speed difference, maintaining  that same arrival and departure for each train. 

Needless to say that did not last, but most of the time they continued othave similar schedules, esp. southbound.

As to places which each train served on the inermediate routes, there was no attempt to have a matching schdedule For example, the SW and CofM did not arrive and leave Birmingham at the same time. Nor did the  SW and the Flagler arrive and leave Nashville at the same time. It was just Chicago itself, and everywhere from Wacyross to Miami which had the same schedule the first few years.

[Hawkeye606]

I remember riding the Floridian from Lafayatte, IN to Chicago in the last year of its run.It came through northbound early in the morning (4 or 5am). The Monon was still using street running through Lafayette and the "station" was the lobby of a run-down hotel on the main street. The clerk told me that the train was running an hour or so late, so I went across ther street to a newsstand to pick up a paper. All of a sudden I heard the locomotive bell clanging as it pulled in with me on the wrong side to board. I ran to the front of the train, crossed the street and began to run down the correct side as the train started to pull out. I banged on the doors of each car as it slowly rolled past. Finally the last car had the dutch doors open and the conductor heard my dilemma. He stopped the train and I boarded, breathless, but aboard!