Name That C&O Streamliner

[NW_611]

Folks,

A while back, I asked about the George Washington, and to my dismay, I found that I needed sleepers to make that train. All I've got to work with are coaches, bar cars, and diners. Luckily, the C&O used heavyweight baggage cars, which I have. I've also got access to E-units for motive power.

Therefore, what kind of passenger train---ideally a named one---can I assemble?

Thanks in advance.

[PBenham]

How about a post merger with B&O, Cincinnatian? Granted, if you model it prior to 1966, you'd have to get a model of the great round end observation car it had, now after 1966, no problem. Otherwise you'll need to get at least two 10-6s and a 14 roomette car, which me thinks are out there in HO, a C&O fan friend of mine has the sleepers, but they were modified Herkimer OKs, which means they are sorta old! But they roll right along just fine! See the Cicinnatian on The Green Frog NYC Odyssey Vols. I and II, or B&O odyssey from Pentrex! both are in VHS or DVD.

[passengerfan]

How about a Pere Marquette. They operated Chicago to Grand Rapids and Grand Rapids to Detroit. All were made up of baggage Coaches and Dining lounge cars. For a brief period they operated with Dome Coach Observations and power was an E8 or E7 to the end.

[Anonymous]

There was a book out about ten years ago called [C&O Streamliners, Second to None: Volume I--The Cars.It was published by the C&O Historical Society and is probably out of print by now. That book contains everything you need to know about postwar passenger trains on the C&O, with an emphasis on exact consists matched and ordered as they were meant to be run. Complete with diagrams for every type of car used in the Pere Marquettes, Chessie ( the never run), and the three name trains. Fascinating info on the Pullman Standard order of 1950--of which half the cars wound up being sold new to other roads due to the order being delivered late.

Now your only problem is finding it. Sorry, my copy is taken! Good luck.

[Anonymous]

NW 611, in Navy parlance, you might SOL. My 1954 Guide shows the 3 named trains of the C&O (G.Washington, FFV, & Sportsman) all with sleepers. Even the Pere Marquette division non-named trains had sleepers.

My April 1971 Guide, the last one before the AMTRAK takeover in May 1971, shows the C&O with just one named train, the George Washington, with two sleepers.

However, the Pere Marquette division is running trains called the Pere Marquettes with coaches only between Chicago and Grand Rapids and between Detroit and Grand Rapids. No diner service is mentioned. Now it is possible that at sometime inbetween the above dates the Pere Marquette trains lost their sleepers but retained the diners.

I have no Guides between those dates so I can't check this out but who is going to quibble with you?

Art

[Anonymous]

NW 611, the B&O isn't much better than the C&O in 1971. The Cincinattian has only coaches, buy food at Toledo Station during station stop!!

The Metropolitan and Shenandoah have coaches and a Food Bar Coach.

The Capitol Limited has a sleeper, coaches, The Iron Horse Tavern (Table d'Hote or a la Carte meal service), and The Capitol Club (lounge, magazine library, and snack and beverage service).

But service gradually deteriorated between the 50's and 70's so all the services and amenities didn't disappear all at once.

Art

[daveklepper]

The Pere Marquettes were day trains and never had sleepers as far as I know.

[Anonymous]

As I recall, the C&O added the sleepers to the GW in Russell, KY, and all trains west to Cincinnati were day coach only, as the east AND westbound trains operated in daylight. This was in the early 60's. The few times I rode the C&O to Cincinnati on the George Washington, catching it in South Portsmouth, KY, it was daycoach only with one RPO and baggage car.
I remember them adding the sleepers in Russell when I rode the GW to Washington D.C. in 1965, so you could indeed make up a 'copy' of the George Washington with what you have for any runs between Russell KY and Cincinnati, Ohio in the 60's.


Regards! Michaelson

[coalminer3]

"George Washington" sleepers operated as follows on the C&O in 1969.

Louisville-Washington
Cincinnati-Newport News

The "George" was a good sized train right up until Amtrak; a lot more than a day coach/rpo and baggage car.

On the B&O side, the "Cap[tol Limited carried sleepers between Chicago and Washington

Hope this helps

work safe

[Anonymous]

Coalminer3, I suppose calling the GW a good sized train depends on what you're used to seeing. But I would have to say the GW was sure no local.
The last month it ran - before AMTRAK, the Guide lists these cars.

Westbound
Chessie Sleeper: Washington to Louisville, Double Bedrooms
Chessie Sleeper: Newport News to Cincinnati, Roomettes, Dbl Bedrooms, Bdrm Suites
Reclining seat coaches: Between all points (number not specified),
--- attendant service between Washington & St.Louis
Iron Horse Tavern: Washington to Louisville
Snack Diners: Newport News to Cincinnati
Food Bar Coach: Ashland to Toledo, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays

Eastbound
Chessie Sleeper: Louisville to Washington
Chessie Sleeper: Cincinnati to Newport News
Coaches: Between all points, attendant service between St.Louis & Washington
Iron Horse Tavern: Louisville to Washington
Snack Diners: Cincinnati to Newport News
Food Bar Coach: Toledo to Ashland, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays

Art

[Anonymous]

NW_611: To match the criteria you listed, " heavyweights ", " E units ", and " I have coaches, bar cars, and diners" would not necessarily make a good PM train. One for the C&O, yes. Then again, as we know, railroads through history always yealded a photo or two that puts us fans in our places! I think its payback from the railroads for all the free publicity we fans give them. This brings up the one thing that is missing.... what time period is this named train to be representing? It would be nice to see a Pere Marquette turn up in "Trackside Photos". If you need resources the C&OHS and PMHS both have everything you should need in one stop!

Sincerely,

Power at Speed

[NW_611]

A quick reply courtesy of the little box at the bottom of the page:

-I've got multiple E8As in the original C&O postwar tri-color livery.
-All motive power and rolling stock is in the postwar livery used on the 1950 order.
-The coach, bar, and diners are of the Budd type, corrugated lower sides and all.
-I've got four- and six-door heavyweight baggage cars available.
-I've got nothing decorated for the PM lines, so any data on that service can't be used.
-The time period I'm aiming for is any time that I can cram tri-color E8A(s) on the point with an all-stainless steel car consist other than the baggage cars, without using sleepers or dome observation cars, in the noted livery.

It should probably be noted that this is for a railroad simulator, so quantity of locomotives/cars is irrelevant. At this point, I'll take anything that the C&O ran, anywhere, even if it was the podunk local from Nowhere to Nohow. This stuff looks too good to casually junk.

[Anonymous]

Since your using E8's your definately outta the PM game. They never had them nor were around long enuf to order them (merged into C&O June 6th, 1947). C&O didnt get their E8s till May 1951 i think?? 1952??? And your cars wont work either ( for PM ). Check around page 330 in the book "C&O Power" by Shuster, Huddleston, and Staufer. Pictures there of what your looking for. Named trains, Specials etc, but just a few.

Sincerely,

Power at Speed

[fmilhaupt]

Whether an E8 is appropriate on the Pere Marquette trains (the trains named "Pere Marquette" running between Grand Rapids and Detroit under PM ownership and later under C&O ownership) depends entirely on the era being modeled.

Up until about 1965 or so, the Pere Marquette service trains were almost exclusively powered by former PM E7As, first painted for the PM, then later in the C&O's version of the tri-color scheme. After that time, the C&O E8As moved in and took over passenger operations on the former PM lines until Amtrak Day in 1971.

Once the cars from the C&O's massive Pullman-Standard passenger car order started arriving in 1950 many of  the streamlined cars lettered "Pere Marquette" were deemed redundant, and by about 1953, the PM-lettered coaches and coach-observation cars were sold off, having been replaced by the C&O 1610-series streamlined coaches (lettered for the C&O). After that point, the only cars with "Pere Marquette" lettering left in service were streamlined diners #10 and 11, and streamlined baggage and baggage-mail cars #60-61 and #50-51. They weren't easily repainted for the C&O, as the script "Pere Marquette" name in the letterboard was made from stainless steel welded quite permanently onto the side of the car.

The only Tavern-Lounge car the C&O retained from the massive Pullman-Standard order, "Chessie Club" operated regularly between Chicago and Grand Rapids from the time that it was delivered until the late 1960s, with a few stretches of several months when it was reassigned elsewhere.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Some other equipment to be considered for Pere Marquettes would be the original Roadrailers. In the early to mid 1960's, two or three Roadrailers were tucked on the rear of the Pere Marquettes, at least on the Chicago-Grand Rapids runs.