What happened to the Chessie and the Golden Rocket???

[Anonymous]

Why did C&O´s Chessie Limited never run a proper mile? What was the problem with the train? I know that the locomotives which were assigned to pull that train also were problematic (C&O´s M-1 Steam Turbine monsters), but I don´t think this was the reason for the dilemma. Can anybody give me a "planned" consist for the Chessie Limited? All I know so far is that there were already Dome Lounge Observations, Dome Sleepers and Dome Coaches built for that train, but are there still any other cars? I also heard that the train should receive an aquarium, library and stewardess nurse service.
Any info on C&O´s Chessie would be great.

By the way, can somebody give me a list of C&O name trains? The only trains I know from the C&O are the George Washington and the Sportsman, but I even don´t know between which cities they ran.

[rogruth]

I think Chessie service was to be Washington DC to Cincinnati .The B&O beat the C&O to it and proved the service was not needed and C&O dropped their plans for the Chessie. The locos were scrapped and the cars sold to other railroads .
The FFV, Fast Flying Virginian was another named train.

[PBenham]

The C&O found out just a bit late in the process, that "Chessie" just wasn't going to work out, financially. Robert R. Young, never really learned about rail passenger service away from densely populated areas of the country, much to his regret, when he found the New York Central careening toward financial disaster, with passenger losses and other factors (over-regulation) fueling the fires that ultimately consumed not only NYC, but arch rival PRR and many more, too!

[daveklepper]

The three C&O name passenger trains ran for many years, giving reasonable but not very fast service from Newport News and Washington, DC, to Cincinannati and Louisville. The line from Newport News and the line from Washington (actually from Orange, VA, with trackage rights on the Southern to Alexandria and then the RF&P into Washington Union Station) actually joined at Gordensville, but the trains were combined in Charlottesville, which had two stations. The eastern one, the C&O station, was where the trains were combined, but they also stopped at the Union Station, where the C&O line west crossed the Southern main line. I remember the three named trains from steam days. Heavyweight six-wheel truck coaches and Pullmans, and a Solorium observation, not open platform, on the George Washington, and the others may also have had one. Greenbriar 4-8-4's used west of Charlottesville and Pacifics east.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

TRAINS ran an excellent article about the Chessie (The Story of the Train that was but never was) in the late 1960's. C&O was best known for its service to the Virginia resort towns rather than between its online cities. Robert R. Young was looking for a way to showcase his ideas about passenger service but he had the wrong railroad with which to do it. As mentioned above and in the article, he basically proposed a daylight service between Washington and Cincinnati for which there was little to no real demand, as B&O demonstrated quite nicely with the "Cincinnatian".

Young also blew it with his massive passenger-car order to re-equip the rest of C&O's trains. It was too big and wasn't placed until 1946, well after most other roads had already placed their orders. A fair number of cars were trimmed from the order, and many of the rest were delivered to other roads directly.

[Anonymous]

Can you tell me the types of cars of which the Chessie should have had consisted?

[nanaimo73]

The equipment was locomotives
500-502 Steam turbine-electrics (to Baldwin 1950 scrap)
490-493 4-6-4s, streamlined for connecting services (490 preserved)
(The coaling tower in Clifton Forge was streamlined as well)

Passenger cars-
1400-1402 Coach-combine, 28 passengers
1500-1511 Luxury coach, 36 passengers, plus 8 lounge seats
1600-1609 Luxury coach, 36 passengers, plus 8 lounge seats
1700-1702 Family coach, 32 passengers
1850-1852 Cabin-dome, 3 drawing rooms, 1 compartment, 5 roomettes, dome
1875-1877 Coach-lounge-dome-obsevation, 24 passengers
1900-1902, Lounge-lunch-counter-tavern,
1920-1922 Diner-lounge-flat-end observation, for connecting trains
1940-1942 Lunch-counter-kitchen,
1970-1972 Full diner-theater car

[Anonymous]

Thank you very much!
What is a full diner-theater car? Never heard of something like this....

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A few dispositions: the cabin-domes wound up on B&O and served as dome-sleepers on the "Capitol Ltd" until April 30, 1971. The dome-obs were sold to D&RGW and served on the "Royal Gorge". One of them wound up in private hands and was operated under contract as a parlor car on RI's "Quad Cities Rocket" until RI discontinued its intercity passenger service around 1976.

[Anonymous]

The introduction of the Powatan Arrow on the N&W didn't help either. The Trains issue about the Chessie was published in 1968, as I recall. As I also recall, most of the equipment was sold to South America, with the exception of the single units mentioned above. The big turbines were scrapped, and the branch line steamers were stripped of their shells and continued to word the coal fields into the early 50's. One of the few things I remember from the article is the acquarium idea was a really bad one, as the fish died immediately after the train went into service, due to all the motion and sloshing of the water.[8)]

I had a weird situation occur back in 72 when the high school marching band I was a member of went to Pikeville, KY for a parade. When we had marched, we were given the rest of the day off the wander around the town, and I naturally ended up at the local train depot, still in use at that time. Sitting on the house track was a C&O passenger car. The station master told me that the C&O was dumping passenger service from all over the system, and were donating cars to towns for possible preservation. He told me I could look in the car, and if I could figure out a way to do it, he'd GIVE me the car, as it was tieing up his siding, and the city of Pikeville didn't want it.[:O]
It was one of the sleepers from the Chessie, and had the curved vestibules that the Chessie touted in their advertisements (no corners to run into when the train was running). I was only 17 at the time, and had NO clue how to get this car moved to my home, so that was a pipe dream. Last I heard, Pikeville DID accept the car, but I have no idea where it ever ended up.

I also have an ashtray that was specifically made for the Chessie trains, and is one of my proudest possessions.
Regards! Michaelson

[Anonymous]

It went to South America? To which country there?

[Anonymous]

It's been to long since I read the article, so I honestly don't remember if it even said which country purchased the equipment.

The article was either in the November or December issue of Trains, 1968. I had my original copy for YEARS until it disappeared in our last move, and I haven't seen it since.[:(!]

Regards! Michaelson

[nanaimo73]

The order was for 46 cars, three 14 car trains (one spare) and the rest for the Hampton Roads connecting trains.
According to the July 1968 issue-
1400, 1401 to Argentina
1402 kept by C&O
1500, 1600, 1602, 1603, 1605, 1609 to ACL (ACL 270-275)
1504, 1505, 1510, 1601, 1604, 1606, 1607, 1608 to SAL (6227-6234)
1501, 1502, 1503, 1506, 1507, 1508, 1509, 1511 to Argentina
1700-1702 to C&EI 605-606, 475
1850-1852 to B&O (7600-7602)
1875-1877 to D&RGW (1248-1250)
1900 to C&O 19, then NYC 23, then Adios II
1901, 1902 to Argentina
1920-1922 other C&O service
1940-1942 and 1970-1972 to ACL (127-129, Winter Haven, St. Petersburg, Fort Meyers

QUOTE: The most paradoxical part of the Chessie's last chapter came in 1951 when 12 cars - 8 coaches, 2 combines, and 2 lounges - were hoisted aboard freighters and shipped to Argentina. Reputedly they still run there [1968] on the General Roca Railway, carrying their orange letterboards and their lounge fishtanks intact but empty.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, that' s what I meant.....the JULY issue, 1968.[banghead]

Ah, Argentina! I DID remember it correctly!!!! Thank you, Dale!!! WOW! How'd I remember THAT? I'm lucky to remember where I put my car keys most days.

High regards! Michaelson

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

DPM also mentioned in the sidebar above the Table of Contents on page 3 of the same issue about the interesting stories of other proposed streamliners which never made it into service. He specifically mentioned B&O's "Columbian", which was intended as a Chicago-Washington daylight train but became an overnighter; and the "Golden Rocket", for which one set of equipment (out of two proposed) was actually built.

What was the story behind the "Golden Rocket"?

[nanaimo73]

From http://storm.simpson.edu/~RITS/histories/goldenstate/gs.htm

QUOTE: Prior to the creation of the GOLDEN STATE streamliner, Rock Island and Southern Pacific had planned an all new train called the GOLDEN ROCKET. The Rock Island ordered cars, the SP ordered diesels and both roads produced ads showing the red/silver scheme. Because of an ICC 1947 requirement for expensive automatic train stop equipment, the Southern Pacific changed their minds and the train never came to be. In my opinion, the SP changed their minds back because they eventually ordered all new equipment for the new GOLDEN STATE(even though it never reached the sub-40 hour originally planned schedule). Many of the RI GR cars retained their GR letterboard for many years.

[Anonymous]

As far as I know the Golden Sate never had dome cars. What about the Golden Rocket? Was this train meant to be equipped with domes?

[Anonymous]

Anyone know of any pictures of 1940-1942? Specifically, not the isle side, which had 7 normal
sized windows. Any help would be appreciated.

Drew

[passengerfan]

For the one who wanted the information on the GOLDEN ROCKET hope this helps.

CRI&P/SP
GOLDEN ROCKET
(1948)
By Al

The second new train of 1948 that failed to enter service was the GOLDEN ROCKET. A single new lightweight streamlined consist was completed by Pullman Standard in 1948 and delivered to the Rock Island for a proposed every third day 39-3/4 hour deluxe extra fare train between Chicago and Los Angeles via the Rock Island and Southern Pacific. This would have been the third rail route between Chicago and Los Angeles to operate 39-3/4 hour scheduled passenger train services the other two being the C&NW – UP CITY OF LOS ANGELES route and the AT&SF SUPER CHIEF and EL CAPITAN route. The proposed GOLDEN ROCKET would have required two sets of equipment for the proposed every third day service and only the Rock Island received theirs. The Southern Pacific canceled there set soon after the order was placed and before construction had actually started on their cars. The Rock Island GOLDEN ROCKET train set made a single trip to Los Angeles and even ventured over Pacific Electric tracks to Hollywood as a promotional gimmick for the new train but alas it was never meant to be. Like the CHESSIE the Rock Island quietly dropped promotion of the train and it returned east. The new cars built for the GOLDEN ROCKET were added to the GOLDEN STATE car pool. Except for the 22 Roomette Sleeping car that was always some what of an orphan on the Rock Island its only lengthy assignment being to one of the CORN BELT ROCKET train sets between Chicago and Omaha. Power for the proposed GOLDEN ROCKET train sets would have been a pair of EMD E7 units east of Tucumcari and a trio of EMD E7 units west of Tucumcari. It has been said the principle reason for the cancellation of the GOLDEN ROCKET was that Southern Pacific track between Tucumcari and Los Angeles was not suitable for speeds above 79 mph and any passenger trains operating above 79 mph required automatic train stop. The Southern Pacific felt it was too expensive to install automatic train stop for two trains a week in each direction. Pullman Standard delivered the new Rock Island train set with red roof, car ends, with red extending down the car sides to below the windows. Below the windows fluted stainless steel panels were installed left in their natural gleaming finish. The trucks were painted silver and the car ends were painted red. The cars were equipped with full width diaphragms when delivered. The name GOLDEN ROCKET appeared in the letter boards of the cars. The equipment was transferred to the GOLDEN STATE pool and for many years the GOLDEN ROCKET name still appeared in the letter board of the cars intended for that train. The Rock Island GOLDEN ROCKET train is listed, as it would have been train lined had it entered service. Since the names had already been selected for the proposed Southern Pacific GOLDEN ROCKET train set that was canceled I am listing it below as well. Both of these train sets are listed less power.

ROCK ISLAND

820 Baggage 21 Crew Dormitory Car

347 VALLE VERDE 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

348 VALLE VISTA 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

349 VALLE MAR 28 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

412 EL CAFÉ 32 seat Coffee Shop Bar 20 seat Lounge Car

428 EL COMEDOR 36 seat Dining Car

LA QUINTA 4 Compartment 2 Drawing Room 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

660 LA COSTA 22 Roomette Sleeping Car

LA JOLLA 12 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

LA PALMA 12 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

480 LA MIRADA 2 Double Bedroom 1 Drawing Room Buffet 25 seat Picture Windowed Lounge Observation

SOUTHERN PACIFIC

UNKNOWN Baggage 21 Crew Dormitory Car

VALLE RIO GRANDE 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

VALLE DEL SOL 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

VALLE IMPERIAL 48 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coach

EL CAFÉ FRONTERO 32 seat Coffee Shop Bar 20 seat Lounge Car

LA FONDA 36 seat Dining Car

MONTE CHIRICAHUA 4 Compartment 2 Drawing Room 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

MONTE SANTA RITA 22 Roomette Sleeping Car

MONTE SAN JACINTO 12 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

MONTE SANTA CATALINA 12 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

LA GALLERIA 2 Double Bedroom 1 Drawing Room Buffet 25 seat Picture Window Lounge Observation

Somewhere I have what an actual CHESSIE consist would have been soon as I locate it will post it.

TTFN Al

[Anonymous]

By the way, did the SP/RI also have a secondary train to the Golden State?

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE:
The Rock Island GOLDEN ROCKET train set made a single trip to Los Angeles and even ventured over Pacific Electric tracks to Hollywood as a promotional gimmick for the new train but alas it was never meant to be.

According to Dubin's Some Classic Trains, the proposal of having the first eastbound run of the Golden Rocket leaving Hollywood via Pacific Electric was just that, a proposal. There were some studies done on what track adjustments needed to be made on the PE, but nothing came of this.

The Golden State Route secondary runs after WWI include the Apache, the Californian and the Imperial.

Other names that were applied to supporting Golden State Route trains up to the WWI years include:
El Paso-California Express
Chicago & St. Louis Special
Chicago Fast Mail
California Fast Mail
California Express
Chicago Special
Golden State Express