Southern Pacific Engine #4449 Daylight

[GmanHO]

Question :-
Did Engine # 4449 Daylight have its current colors and streamling fitted whilst still in service, ie. from 1955 onwards through preservation to date.

[wjstix]

I don't think 4449 was ever de-streamlined, but it has had different paintschemes. Wasn't 4449 used on the Bicentennial train in red white and blue back in '75-76, and then a similar scheme after 9/11??

[GmanHO]

Hi, Thanks for the info.
Ref. Bi-Centenial colors, Yes I've got a picture postcard of # 4449 in those colors.
Any body out there with a picture of # 4449 in the mid 1950's sporting the streamlining.
Thanks

[West Coast S]

Indeed 4449 lost its skirts and Daylight colors, as did all members of the streamlined GS class. The current skirts, applied during the 1975 restoration were designed to swing up and out the way to facalitate maintaince, when built the skirts were fixed in position, hence as they were demoted to secondary duty, function over form became the order of the day.

GS5's 4458/59 retained their skirts and Daylight colors the longest. They displayed a short lived variation of black with Daylight paint confined to the cab and tender, skirts were still intact until after 1956 when they too were redone in black and the skirts removed. It fell to 4459 to haul the last steam powered run up the central valley from Bakersfield to Oakland in September 1957, the next day, Alco PA's took command.

For in service photos of 4449 in black with skirts I recall a limited, virtually unnoticed book released in 1975, devoted to just the history of the 4449, maybe 50 pages with decent photo coverage, including 4449 doubleheaded on a fan trip special around 1956. I regret that my copy was destroyed in fire several decades ago, so can't remember the title, shame too, it was autographed by the crew members and those involved in the AFT restoration, as I recall I recieved it from a member of the crew.

Dave

Dave

[GmanHO]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the additional excellent info.
This explains how in the photo negative I have, # 4449 appears without its streamlining skirts.
This picture was taken by H.F.Stewart on 10/11/56 at Bakersfield, California, apparently the # 4449 was still in regular service at this time.
Do you know when # 4449 made its last run for S.P. and what happened to it from then to its 1975 renovation.
I have a copy of Greg Scholl's excellent 1989 Video covering the side by side running with # 8444 into L.A.'s Union Station, and and the race up through Cajon Pass.
Does anyone know if there is any other footage available, particularly showing working on the restoration, or original footage of # 4449 when in regular service.
Thanks again guys
Regards Rod

[GmanHO]

Hi again Dave,
I've just read your last paragraph. Shame about the book, Looks like I'll have to do some more research and try and turn up a coulpe of copies.
Can you recall if it was a hard or soft cover - 50 or so pages - any colour pic's - 10" x 8" size? - anything else you remember that may help to I.D. this publication?
Thanks again,
Regards Rod
in the UK.

[West Coast S]

GmantHo

It was a soft copy, Briefly, 4449 was assigned out of Yuma on the Sunset route in 1949, still sporting skirts and Daylight paint, as this route was dieselized, 4449 migrated to the Valley division between Oakland and los Angeles until 1952 when steam was routinely removed at bakersfield and replaced with diesels for the journey south. Steam operations continued between Stockton and Bakersfield until 1957, 4449 was in the freight pool and never served commute or secondary passenger duty, as standard practice , the skirts and Daylight paint were removed upon entering the frieght pool.

4449 was retired in August 1958, not too long before her sisters and all other steam were removed from service, offically SP steam operations in the United states ended in October 1958.

She languised in the dead line at Roseville, until a request was put forth by the city of Portland in 1959 for a large SP locomotive to serve as the basis for a proposed railroad themed park, which never got off the ground. By sheer chance, the now inoperable and condemmed 4449 had the fate of the gods of being at the end of the dead line, thus easily accessible for a dead tow.

Upon arrival, and failure of the park venture, the city reduced maintaince to zero, she was in dire straits of being scrapped in place when a retired SP engineer by the name of Jack Hoist took it upon himself to routinely oil the running/valve gear and under take minor cosmetic repairs and provide some protection against pilferage and vandelism for which the city was only glad to have someone assume the responsbility.

It's safe to say without his efforts 4449 would not be operable today or even extent... Actually 4449 was not the first choice for the AFT, It was assumed that they would lease the 8444, UP was adament they wanted no part of such a lease and then someone remembered the 4449, inspections proved restoration was fiesible and within budget, she was moved to the Brooklyn roundhouse in 1974.

Through the efforts of the late Jack Hoist, others took notice and today both 4449, SP&S 700 are operational, soon a UP 4-6-2 will be operable, all three donated to the city and languised in the company of 4449 on sad display. A fitting end indeed.

Dave

[GmanHO]

Dave,
I get the feeling that you are or were directly involved with the 4449 story?
I am a member of our local model railway club, The WMRA -Weymouth Model Railway Assoc.and for our events this year I'm putting together as much info as I can on the # 4449 Daylight for a display consisting of an `HO` Bachmann model, Postcards & Pictures. A large print from the Stewart negative I mentioned earlier,Original S.P. Daylight Trip Guide inc map,one of those little S.P. match-stick folders with the Art-Deco Daylight loco drawing on the back, an S.P. lapel pin and anything else that I can find to add authenticity to the story.
I would like to use all of the info you have provided in its entirety without alteration if thats alright with you, and could you send me, via seperate Email if you wi***o [e-mail] your name and your connection with the story so that I can give you credit for the information.
The purpose for my display, which also includes a range of American Outline `HO` Locomotives three of which are Rivarossi 4-8-8-4 Big-Boy's plus a large oval track of Bachmann `G` Scale Radio Control 4-6-0 Loco and wagons for the visiting kids to play with.The purpose being to generate interest in American Outline model Railroading.
Currently out of approx. 50 Club members I am alone in my interest in `HO & `G` Scale American Outline.The clubs current governing committee are staunchly British Outline and have even gone to the point of turning down any and all of my proposals for getting new younger members (most members are 55yrs. + including myself) and for building an American layout, all the materials for which I had offered to donate F.O.C.
They say that pressure always comes from the bottom, so if my display can bring in new members we may yet get started on that American Layout.
Thanks,
Regards Rod.
W.M.R.A.
England

[jlampke]

Rod, Dave, et.al., There is an EXCELLENT book by Robert J. Church covering the subject of the SP GS class of locomotives. Pictures, dates, statistics, everything is there. I couldn't recommend it more. Even friends of mine who aren't interested in trains have found it an interesting book. All the questions you asked above are answered in that book. Hundreds of fantastic pictures, too.
On a side note, I'm from OR, and have been down to the Brooklyn Roundhouse many times. I never tire of looking at those steam locomotives!!!
Good luck!! John

[GmanHO]

Hi John,
Sounds like a great book.
I've just spent an hour or so on Ebay looking for a copy without success.
Have you got any of these pieces of info - its ISBN number, its full title, and the publisher, and roughly in what year it was published.
Armed with one or more of these I may have more luck.

Thanks for your comments
Regards Rod

[agentatascadero]

Dave, I'm wondering what is your source on the de-streamlining of ALL 4400's? I know 98/99 had streamlined 4400's right up until it was dieselized in 1955. Because of my belief that 4400's were de-streamlined at time of shopping, I had always thought that some 4400's made it to scrap in their colors. It's hard to imagine late shoppings for all of these beauties. I lived on the Coast Line at the time, and it made me extremely jealous that 50/51 had domes AND steam... and just how many trains could claim regularly scheduled domes behind steam? I can think of only two examples: The Scenic Limited and Royal Gorge both ran behind steam with domes as the CZ equipment was being delivered, before the Gorge was dieselized, and before the CZ was inagurated. Any others?

[jlampke]

Rod, That book has only been out a few years. One of the pictures in it is of 4449 underway in 2002. I'm in Korea right now. The book's in Oregon. I'll be going back in two weeks, and will provide you with the info you requested after that. I bought it in Portland last July. I'm sure it's easy to get. In response to the above question; I don't think any of the GS-2, 3, 4 or 5's made it to the scrap yard with skirts and colors. The skirts currently on 4449 are the 3rd set. I'm pretty sure Doyle just installed them a couple years ago. The ones installed new in '75 were pretty beat, I'm told. I hate to make any statements when I'm over 5,000 miles away from all my information.
Well, more later. John

[jimrice4449]

Steam on the Coast Daylight finished up w/ the 2 GS-5s, 4458 amd 4459. They were then moved to #51-52. I have a VHS tape of the 4458 being paced along highway 99 at speed and at that point it was deskirted and black.

[GmanHO]

Hi Jim Rice 4449,
Love to see a copy of your VHS tape, any chance?
Regards Rod

[jimrice4449]

It's a commercial tape from Catenary Video Productions, "SP's San Joaquin Route circa 1950" I don't know if they're still in business but the tape has a phone number on the case, 800 343 5540. It covers from the double headed 4-8-2s through the Alco PAs.
I've recently gotten the book on the Daylight 4-8-4s and it's a winner! I got mine from Karensbooks.com. You might also want to look into the avaiability of Richard Wright's "Southern Pacific Daylight". It's rather pricey but into it's second revised edition and will tell you EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know about that great train

[GmanHO]

Hi John,
Thanks for the extra info.
Look forward to receiving the book details from you in due course.
Regards Rod.

[GmanHO]

Hi Jim Rice 4449,
I've checked out Catenary Video Productions, Web site and they still list :- Vol.3 San Joaquin Route 55 minutes Digital Sound Effects with Narration, @ $42.50.
The tel. No. also looks to be current.
Looks like I'll have to get myself a copy,

Thanks again for the info.

Regards Rod

[jlampke]

Hi Rod,
Call these guys:
Vic's Hobby Supply, Inc.
606 N.E. Broadway
Portland, OR 97232
503-281-1032
They will send the book to you, and Oregon has no sales tax.
The book you want has been out about two or three years. By Robert J. Church,
if I remember right it's called Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives. It covers every one of the SP's 4-8-4's. Worth every penny and then some.
I'm in Pearl Harbor tonight, flying to Singapore tomorow.
Let me know how you make out.
Good luck.
John