Should the Mil. Road have built it's Pacific Ext.?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Third rail would have to be DC because of problems with induction currents and other safety issues. You would then have a situation like the New Haven with AC overhead and DC third rail and the additional equipment required on all locomotives.

[Anonymous]

I heard that the train going down the mountain generated all the power for the train going up the mountain. If this is so, the electric lines should have made it economical to operate. Was this statement true? Anybody know?

[Anonymous]

I heard that the train going down the mountain generated all the power for the train going up the mountain. If this is so, the electric lines should have made it economical to operate. Was this statement true? Anybody know?

[Anonymous]

Whether it was the balanced bed or the electric power, the Olympian Hiawata had the nicest ride of all the trains that I have ever rode. It had a gliding feeling like a sleigh rather than the feel of a constant tugging feel like the other long distance trains I have rode.

[Anonymous]

Whether it was the balanced bed or the electric power, the Olympian Hiawata had the nicest ride of all the trains that I have ever rode. It had a gliding feeling like a sleigh rather than the feel of a constant tugging feel like the other long distance trains I have rode.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nancy Spooner

I heard that the train going down the mountain generated all the power for the train going up the mountain. If this is so, the electric lines should have made it economical to operate. Was this statement true? Anybody know?

Regenerative braking is the original form of dynamic braking. The motors are configured to act as generators and return current to the wire. The resistance incurred provides braking for the train going downgrade without use of air. The current returned to the wire can be credited or used, depending on traffic.

According to "When the Steam Roads Electrified", there was a proposal for a coal hauling road in the Southwest in which the regenerative braking of loaded trains going downhill would provide enough current for empties going uphill without use of a power plant. The ICC rejected the proposal as economically unfeasible.

Regenerative braking can save money by lowering the electric bill slightly and reduce brakeshoe wear.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nancy Spooner

I heard that the train going down the mountain generated all the power for the train going up the mountain. If this is so, the electric lines should have made it economical to operate. Was this statement true? Anybody know?

Regenerative braking is the original form of dynamic braking. The motors are configured to act as generators and return current to the wire. The resistance incurred provides braking for the train going downgrade without use of air. The current returned to the wire can be credited or used, depending on traffic.

According to "When the Steam Roads Electrified", there was a proposal for a coal hauling road in the Southwest in which the regenerative braking of loaded trains going downhill would provide enough current for empties going uphill without use of a power plant. The ICC rejected the proposal as economically unfeasible.

Regenerative braking can save money by lowering the electric bill slightly and reduce brakeshoe wear.

[kencompton]

Absolutely!! Better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all!
Especially after the BN merger, with the rights into Portland, and the friendly SP connection, who gave the MILW three trains a day sometimes. I think management just gave up too easily, and threw in the towel.

[kencompton]

Absolutely!! Better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all!
Especially after the BN merger, with the rights into Portland, and the friendly SP connection, who gave the MILW three trains a day sometimes. I think management just gave up too easily, and threw in the towel.

[Anonymous]

This is kind of a dicey question. Yes, the Pacific ext. is what brought the Milwaukee down partly, but where was it going to tap into a traffic area that was away from the Chicago Northwestern and the SOO? Even then, the GN/NP/CB&Q partnership had the shortest line from Chicago to the Twin Cities, and two lines from the Twin Cities to the Pacific Northwest that were well established by the time the Milw. line was finished. It was one of those "expand or expire" roads like the Erie, GM&O, and Rio Grande, all of which also failed from compitition, wether on rail or pavement.

[Anonymous]

This is kind of a dicey question. Yes, the Pacific ext. is what brought the Milwaukee down partly, but where was it going to tap into a traffic area that was away from the Chicago Northwestern and the SOO? Even then, the GN/NP/CB&Q partnership had the shortest line from Chicago to the Twin Cities, and two lines from the Twin Cities to the Pacific Northwest that were well established by the time the Milw. line was finished. It was one of those "expand or expire" roads like the Erie, GM&O, and Rio Grande, all of which also failed from compitition, wether on rail or pavement.

[passengerfan]

Having followed and explored much of the old Milw. Road Pacific extension it is easy to see why the line failed. First they missed most of the centers of commerce and there route over Snoqualmie pass required very slow runnning as did the westbound climb from the Columbia River to Ellensburg. The NP route in Washington was lengthier but served the tri-Cities and Yakima niether of which the Milw route served. Though they had a sizable yard in Tacoma just the opposite was true of Seattle where their yard was only about five tracks alongside Boeing Field. At that time Seattle was still the major port city and Tacoma had only a token amount of traffic. Since the demise of the Milw. Road Tacoma has become a more important port than Seattle for overseas and Alaska commerce. Reading the history of the extension one wonders how it lasted as long as it did. Even though the line was well constructed it never was able to pay off its construction costs or releive itself of its debt load which finally brought it down.
The Milwaukee Road Olympian Hiawatha that entered service in 1947 was no match for either the Empire Builder or North Coast Linmited although when it first entered service was a faster train between Seattle and Chicago then North Coast Limited. The Olympian Hiawatha was last of the trains between Chicago and Seattle to offer leg-rest seats. The train disappeared from the timetables in 1960 unable to compete for passengers between Chicago and Seattle. The train introduced the first full length domes in December 1952 and operated with the best looking of all streamlined observation cars from January 1949. The touralux sleeping cars (Tourist sleeping Cars) brought passengers to the trains for awhile but even these were outdated when all other roads discontinued tourist sleeping cars in 1947-48. The North Coast Limited offered more dome seating and introduced Slumbercoaches in 1959 and these assured the demise of the Olmpian Hiawatha. In one last desparte bid for passengers they lowered the fares on the Olympian Hiawatha to bnearly half that of the North Coast Limited and still the passengers left. Rode the train on two occasions once in late 1950's and again in 1960 before being discontinued and found the interior decor dated for a postwar streamliner. I personally preferred the orange and maroon scheme to the UP scheme. As a sidebar south of Seattle before reaching Black river Junction their was a covered bridge over the tracks. One day one of the Milwaukee electrics is belied to have caused a spark that destroyed the last wooden covered bridge over railroad tracks in Washington state.

[passengerfan]

Having followed and explored much of the old Milw. Road Pacific extension it is easy to see why the line failed. First they missed most of the centers of commerce and there route over Snoqualmie pass required very slow runnning as did the westbound climb from the Columbia River to Ellensburg. The NP route in Washington was lengthier but served the tri-Cities and Yakima niether of which the Milw route served. Though they had a sizable yard in Tacoma just the opposite was true of Seattle where their yard was only about five tracks alongside Boeing Field. At that time Seattle was still the major port city and Tacoma had only a token amount of traffic. Since the demise of the Milw. Road Tacoma has become a more important port than Seattle for overseas and Alaska commerce. Reading the history of the extension one wonders how it lasted as long as it did. Even though the line was well constructed it never was able to pay off its construction costs or releive itself of its debt load which finally brought it down.
The Milwaukee Road Olympian Hiawatha that entered service in 1947 was no match for either the Empire Builder or North Coast Linmited although when it first entered service was a faster train between Seattle and Chicago then North Coast Limited. The Olympian Hiawatha was last of the trains between Chicago and Seattle to offer leg-rest seats. The train disappeared from the timetables in 1960 unable to compete for passengers between Chicago and Seattle. The train introduced the first full length domes in December 1952 and operated with the best looking of all streamlined observation cars from January 1949. The touralux sleeping cars (Tourist sleeping Cars) brought passengers to the trains for awhile but even these were outdated when all other roads discontinued tourist sleeping cars in 1947-48. The North Coast Limited offered more dome seating and introduced Slumbercoaches in 1959 and these assured the demise of the Olmpian Hiawatha. In one last desparte bid for passengers they lowered the fares on the Olympian Hiawatha to bnearly half that of the North Coast Limited and still the passengers left. Rode the train on two occasions once in late 1950's and again in 1960 before being discontinued and found the interior decor dated for a postwar streamliner. I personally preferred the orange and maroon scheme to the UP scheme. As a sidebar south of Seattle before reaching Black river Junction their was a covered bridge over the tracks. One day one of the Milwaukee electrics is belied to have caused a spark that destroyed the last wooden covered bridge over railroad tracks in Washington state.

[Anonymous]

Milwaukee Road should of had a big yard in Seattle instead of Tacoma and they had to hand off traffic in Minneapolis for other cities on their line instead of hauling it themselves

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

Milwaukee Road should of had a big yard in Seattle instead of Tacoma and they had to hand off traffic in Minneapolis for other cities on their line instead of hauling it themselves

DOGGY

[wallyworld]

I agree with passengerfan. Having lived out West and having done some exploring of my own, I could see that in many instances the Milwaukee had to do some pretty elaborate end runs around existing trackage, especially in the mountain passes where the best routes through them with a reasonable gradient were already spoken for, especially when it came to the Jawbone which GN had nailed down. Being a bridge and feeder route to UP, GN and NP, there was not alot of leverage when going up against those investment groups who owned 80% of the Class 1 roads in trying to work out a permanent agreement on traffic routing The distasteful thought of trying to negotiating with them drove alot of the anxious concern about Harriman to the South and Hill to the North . I think it would have been a better arrangement as William Rockefeller ( a board member at the time) sought an alliance with the CN&W and build the extension as a joint venture. Unless you plan to harvest timber or bears, there is not alot of traffic generating commerce en route to the Pacific. When I first arrived there, I remarked how awesome the scenery was to a local. He said flatly, "The only reason its still like this is that there are no jobs." The Pacific Northwest is a bizarre destination, especially when you consider when the extension was begun in 1906 and there was alot of concern about the Panama Canal plans which they feared would siphon off the traffic from the ports.It was a real risky undertaking and they knew it was a gamble.It was estimated to cost $60,000,000. and ended up costing $234,000,000 +.
Whoops, sounds like my local car mechcanic was around then.

[wallyworld]

I agree with passengerfan. Having lived out West and having done some exploring of my own, I could see that in many instances the Milwaukee had to do some pretty elaborate end runs around existing trackage, especially in the mountain passes where the best routes through them with a reasonable gradient were already spoken for, especially when it came to the Jawbone which GN had nailed down. Being a bridge and feeder route to UP, GN and NP, there was not alot of leverage when going up against those investment groups who owned 80% of the Class 1 roads in trying to work out a permanent agreement on traffic routing The distasteful thought of trying to negotiating with them drove alot of the anxious concern about Harriman to the South and Hill to the North . I think it would have been a better arrangement as William Rockefeller ( a board member at the time) sought an alliance with the CN&W and build the extension as a joint venture. Unless you plan to harvest timber or bears, there is not alot of traffic generating commerce en route to the Pacific. When I first arrived there, I remarked how awesome the scenery was to a local. He said flatly, "The only reason its still like this is that there are no jobs." The Pacific Northwest is a bizarre destination, especially when you consider when the extension was begun in 1906 and there was alot of concern about the Panama Canal plans which they feared would siphon off the traffic from the ports.It was a real risky undertaking and they knew it was a gamble.It was estimated to cost $60,000,000. and ended up costing $234,000,000 +.
Whoops, sounds like my local car mechcanic was around then.

[ValorStorm]

The Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension is operated by the BNSF as far west as Terry, in Eastern Montana. For its profile it operates near capacity. It's true that MILW took the hard way. But whether it was the longest or shortest route Chicago-Seattle, understand that the MILW was the FASTest route Chicago-Seattle.
I believe it shouldn't have been built. But the MILW competed with flourish. They veritably locked the GN & NP out of the auto-rack traffic to the Northwest. And although old NP "rails" here in Missoula Montana referred to the MILW as a "wooden axle railroad," many of those same NP men moved here on the "Olympian!" Enough former MILW people work for the MRL that some have joked that it stands for "Milwaukee Road Lives."
Regarding the Interstate Highway concept: Anyone from the Northeastern US who faught in Europe was already familiar with controlled-access superhighways. Certainly Eisenhower knew of them as well. The pre-war "Jeffries Freeway" in Detroit, for one, had all the elements of modern interstates. And unlike the early Autobahns, IT WAS PAVED!

[ValorStorm]

The Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension is operated by the BNSF as far west as Terry, in Eastern Montana. For its profile it operates near capacity. It's true that MILW took the hard way. But whether it was the longest or shortest route Chicago-Seattle, understand that the MILW was the FASTest route Chicago-Seattle.
I believe it shouldn't have been built. But the MILW competed with flourish. They veritably locked the GN & NP out of the auto-rack traffic to the Northwest. And although old NP "rails" here in Missoula Montana referred to the MILW as a "wooden axle railroad," many of those same NP men moved here on the "Olympian!" Enough former MILW people work for the MRL that some have joked that it stands for "Milwaukee Road Lives."
Regarding the Interstate Highway concept: Anyone from the Northeastern US who faught in Europe was already familiar with controlled-access superhighways. Certainly Eisenhower knew of them as well. The pre-war "Jeffries Freeway" in Detroit, for one, had all the elements of modern interstates. And unlike the early Autobahns, IT WAS PAVED!

[Anonymous]

Were railroads to have entered the world in TODAY's business climate, it is doubtful that they would have been built at all. The bottom line nature of todays business, it is doubtful that any long distance rail line would have been built....the need for a PROFIT THIS QUARTER, far out weighs any potential profits that may accrew from additional business opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Were railroads to have entered the world in TODAY's business climate, it is doubtful that they would have been built at all. The bottom line nature of todays business, it is doubtful that any long distance rail line would have been built....the need for a PROFIT THIS QUARTER, far out weighs any potential profits that may accrew from additional business opportunities.

[railman]

I believe the Pacific Coast Extension should have been built, and secondly, when the Milwaukee went belly-up and abandoned it, is should have been saved.

I'm not going to launch into a huge speech here and proclaim myself an oracle on the Road. However, others have made very eloquent points on profits and such that makes the PCE make sense.

Without the extension, the Miwaukee no doubt would have followed the fate of the Rock, a granger line to nowhere (I don't mean to belittle the Rock Island here. Just that without "someplace to go" I don't believe the RR could have weathered the tough times of the 60's.) that would of had no salvation when the midwest began to depopulate.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just believe that the Milwaukee was a fundamentally good road who was led into the ground by their leaders.

[railman]

I believe the Pacific Coast Extension should have been built, and secondly, when the Milwaukee went belly-up and abandoned it, is should have been saved.

I'm not going to launch into a huge speech here and proclaim myself an oracle on the Road. However, others have made very eloquent points on profits and such that makes the PCE make sense.

Without the extension, the Miwaukee no doubt would have followed the fate of the Rock, a granger line to nowhere (I don't mean to belittle the Rock Island here. Just that without "someplace to go" I don't believe the RR could have weathered the tough times of the 60's.) that would of had no salvation when the midwest began to depopulate.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just believe that the Milwaukee was a fundamentally good road who was led into the ground by their leaders.

[VerMontanan]

Actually, the Rock Island and the Milwaukee make an interesting comparison, but I don't arrive at the same conclusion as "railman", unfortunately. The Rock Island went bankrupt and the Milwaukee abandoned its Pacific extension in the same year, 1980. But to say that the Rock Island was a granger line to nowhere ignores the fact that today, some 24 years later, much more of the Rock Island is in operation compared to the Milwaukee. The former Milwaukee can really only be considered a busy mainline railroad from Chicago to the Twin Cities. Its trackage in South Dakota basically connects with the nearest former BN lines for the movement of grain, but they're not through routes. The biggest surprising survivor with regard to Milwaukee Road trackage would probably be Chicago to Kansas City, though this is operated by a regional railroad, and is hardly a major route. The Rock Island route from Kansas City (well, actually Topeka) to Santa Rosa, NM is the UP's major midwest to California route, and easily eclipses the tonnage handled on any former MILW trackage still operated. In addition, Rock Island's Kansas City-to-TwinCities route is heavily used. Rock Island's route from Herington, KS to Fort Worth sees a fair amount of traffic, and the Iowa Interstate operating the Chicago to Omaha former Rock Island main line is easily as busy as the Iowa, Chicago, and Eastern (ex-MILW trackage in the area). So I would say that indeed both railroads did suffer a similar fate, but the strength of the Rock Island's routes means that more miles of its route are busier today than corresponding Milwaukee routes.

Whether the Milwaukee's Pacific Extension should have been built at all is debatable. That it should have or could have been saved could be too. My opinion is that the only part that should have been saved that wasn't was the line over Snoqualmie Pass. This is the lone part of the Milwaukee's PE that had the advantage over its competitors as far as grade, and could have been used as a badly-needed outlet for growing container traffic from the port of Tacoma.

Also debatable is that the Milwaukee was the fastest route from Chicago to Seattle. The Milwaukee, which truly was "America's Resourceful Railroad" as they advertised, did manage to gather a disproportionate amount of business from other railroads who basically were asleep at the switch. But those that think of the Milwaukee as the fastest route usually point to the "Thunderhawk" and "XL Special" freight schedules that bested the published times of BN trains. However, when BN introduced its "Pacific Zip" in 1971, it was on a schedule hours faster than what the Milwaukee offered, and needed to be carrying priority traffic. That the Milwaukee could compete with the BN (and its predecessors prior to the BN merger) is a great tribute to the people of the Milwaukee for sure, but it was not sustainable. The Milwaukee Route was slightly shorter than the CB&Q-GN route from Chicago to Seattle, but after the BN merger, BN's became shorter. But the big disadvantage for the Milwaukee was its profile. While BN trains encountered only one grade over one percent (and it was only 1.2 percent for two miles) between St. Paul and Spokane (near Glacier Park), Milwaukee westbound trains encountered a 1.4 percent grade at Loweth (west of Harlowton), a 2 percent grade over Pipestone Pass (east of Butte), and a 1.7 percent grade over St. Paul Pass. While the Milwaukee's crossing westbound at Snoqualmie Pass was a mild .8 percent grade compared to the ex-GN and ex-NP being 2.2 percent over the Cascades, Milwaukee trains had to climb out of the Columbia River gorge west of Beverly at 2.2 percent. And, Milwaukee didn't have the option (as did BN) to route heavy trains down the water level Columbia River Gorge into the Portland area and then north, avoiding mountain grades altogether. And speaking of Portland, in spite gaining access to Portland as a result of the BN merger, MILW's route there was circuitous at best, and involved a three percent climb out of Tacoma on trains destined to Portland. Interestingly, when the MILW began serving Portland (via trackage rights on BN from the Chehalis, WA area), they received a fair amount of business from the SP connection there. But ultimately, due to the routing, one would have to ask if handling it was sustainable, and evidently the circuity dictated that it was not.

By the way, speaking of the fastest: The fastest regularly scheduled train between Chicago and Seattle was the 1962 version of the Empire Builder, operated by Great Northern and CB&Q.

As today's growing rail freight traffic has everyone wondering if we'd be better off with routes such as that of the Milwaukee, it's easy to think that the PE should have been saved. But with so many tortorous hills and parallel routes available, I think that just about all of the Milwaukee that should have been saved, with the exception of Easton, WA to Renton, WA via Snoqualmie Pass, continues to operate.

[VerMontanan]

Actually, the Rock Island and the Milwaukee make an interesting comparison, but I don't arrive at the same conclusion as "railman", unfortunately. The Rock Island went bankrupt and the Milwaukee abandoned its Pacific extension in the same year, 1980. But to say that the Rock Island was a granger line to nowhere ignores the fact that today, some 24 years later, much more of the Rock Island is in operation compared to the Milwaukee. The former Milwaukee can really only be considered a busy mainline railroad from Chicago to the Twin Cities. Its trackage in South Dakota basically connects with the nearest former BN lines for the movement of grain, but they're not through routes. The biggest surprising survivor with regard to Milwaukee Road trackage would probably be Chicago to Kansas City, though this is operated by a regional railroad, and is hardly a major route. The Rock Island route from Kansas City (well, actually Topeka) to Santa Rosa, NM is the UP's major midwest to California route, and easily eclipses the tonnage handled on any former MILW trackage still operated. In addition, Rock Island's Kansas City-to-TwinCities route is heavily used. Rock Island's route from Herington, KS to Fort Worth sees a fair amount of traffic, and the Iowa Interstate operating the Chicago to Omaha former Rock Island main line is easily as busy as the Iowa, Chicago, and Eastern (ex-MILW trackage in the area). So I would say that indeed both railroads did suffer a similar fate, but the strength of the Rock Island's routes means that more miles of its route are busier today than corresponding Milwaukee routes.

Whether the Milwaukee's Pacific Extension should have been built at all is debatable. That it should have or could have been saved could be too. My opinion is that the only part that should have been saved that wasn't was the line over Snoqualmie Pass. This is the lone part of the Milwaukee's PE that had the advantage over its competitors as far as grade, and could have been used as a badly-needed outlet for growing container traffic from the port of Tacoma.

Also debatable is that the Milwaukee was the fastest route from Chicago to Seattle. The Milwaukee, which truly was "America's Resourceful Railroad" as they advertised, did manage to gather a disproportionate amount of business from other railroads who basically were asleep at the switch. But those that think of the Milwaukee as the fastest route usually point to the "Thunderhawk" and "XL Special" freight schedules that bested the published times of BN trains. However, when BN introduced its "Pacific Zip" in 1971, it was on a schedule hours faster than what the Milwaukee offered, and needed to be carrying priority traffic. That the Milwaukee could compete with the BN (and its predecessors prior to the BN merger) is a great tribute to the people of the Milwaukee for sure, but it was not sustainable. The Milwaukee Route was slightly shorter than the CB&Q-GN route from Chicago to Seattle, but after the BN merger, BN's became shorter. But the big disadvantage for the Milwaukee was its profile. While BN trains encountered only one grade over one percent (and it was only 1.2 percent for two miles) between St. Paul and Spokane (near Glacier Park), Milwaukee westbound trains encountered a 1.4 percent grade at Loweth (west of Harlowton), a 2 percent grade over Pipestone Pass (east of Butte), and a 1.7 percent grade over St. Paul Pass. While the Milwaukee's crossing westbound at Snoqualmie Pass was a mild .8 percent grade compared to the ex-GN and ex-NP being 2.2 percent over the Cascades, Milwaukee trains had to climb out of the Columbia River gorge west of Beverly at 2.2 percent. And, Milwaukee didn't have the option (as did BN) to route heavy trains down the water level Columbia River Gorge into the Portland area and then north, avoiding mountain grades altogether. And speaking of Portland, in spite gaining access to Portland as a result of the BN merger, MILW's route there was circuitous at best, and involved a three percent climb out of Tacoma on trains destined to Portland. Interestingly, when the MILW began serving Portland (via trackage rights on BN from the Chehalis, WA area), they received a fair amount of business from the SP connection there. But ultimately, due to the routing, one would have to ask if handling it was sustainable, and evidently the circuity dictated that it was not.

By the way, speaking of the fastest: The fastest regularly scheduled train between Chicago and Seattle was the 1962 version of the Empire Builder, operated by Great Northern and CB&Q.

As today's growing rail freight traffic has everyone wondering if we'd be better off with routes such as that of the Milwaukee, it's easy to think that the PE should have been saved. But with so many tortorous hills and parallel routes available, I think that just about all of the Milwaukee that should have been saved, with the exception of Easton, WA to Renton, WA via Snoqualmie Pass, continues to operate.