Super Chief

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to research the consist of the mid-1950s Super Chief prior to the combination with the El Capitan. I'm probably new enough at finding information that I'm looking in all the wrong places. I've tried the Sante Fe Railroad Historical Society and Modeling Society web site, but couldn't find anything there. I haven't been able to find what I want to know anywhere else, so I'm asking for help.
I recently found a Walthers model of the observation car, and the box shows two F-7A&B units (total of 4 F-7s), a Budd 73' baggage car, a Budd 63' RPO, a Budd "Pine" series 10-6 sleeper, a P-S Pleasure Dome, a P-S 36-seat Diner, a P-S 29-seat Dormitory-Lounge, a P-S 4-4-2 Sleeper, and a P-S "Vista" Series Observation-Lounge.
Does anyone know if that is the correct consist for that era? I would think there would be at least another sleeper or two, and possibly another diner, but I can't find that information. Was another F-7B added for the mountain areas? If engine(s) and/or cars were added or deleted enroute from Chicago to Los Angeles, where were the places this was done? I would think (trying to be logical?) extra cars might be added around major holidays such as Christmas.
Thanks for the help.
Pete

[richardy]

Pete:

According to Classic Trains "Streamliner Pioneers" the consist until at least 1954 was as follows:

Baggage, Sleeper, Sleeper, Bar Lounge-Dormitory, Diner, Sleeper, Sleeper,
Observation Lounge-Sleeper. I don't think the Chief ever had extra cars but I could be incorrect.

The consist was pulled by two E-1 diesels, A and B.

Richard

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Richard.

I was fairly certain there had to be more than the two sleepers listed. If you figure 2 people per section/compartment/drawing room, one 10-6 and one 4-4-2 would only be 52 passengers. I'm sure there were more than that, probably 2 to 3 times that number.

At some point, I thought in the late 40s or early 50s, the Super Chief used F-3s for power. I know the F-7s were used later on, but I'm not sure when they were assigned to the Super Chief.

It's tough arguing with an authority like "Streamliner Pioneers", but I also can't understand Walthers putting out a set of cars and locomotives at the price being asked if they were the incorrect power or car for the train. That's been my problem with the research--few sources and conflicting information. One of my sources claims the consist was 4 or 5 of the newest passenger F-7s, baggage, RPO, 10-6, 10-6, 4-4-2, dome, diner, dorm/lounge, 4-4-2, 4-4-2, 10-6, observation. Using the same estimate for occupancy would require at least 4 sittings per meal for a 36 seat diner, and a few passengers eating in their rooms. I know 2 sittings were common, and believe 3 were also normal on longer distance trains, but I can't find anything about 4 or 5 sittings per meal. Guestimating 45 minutes per sitting would take at least 3 hours per meal if everything moved along and people didn't sit and talk. It would seem more reasonable to figure 4 hours to allow for clean-up and set-up. I also have a video on the Super Chief that has an interview with a former chef. He maintains the famous French Toast took 45 minutes to cook properly, and there were no shortcuts. I know it's breakfast, but that will shoot a scheduled meal sitting right out the window unless you allow at least 1 hour 15 minutes per sitting. You just know someone's going to sip coffee and read the paper!!

I believe you're right in extra cars not being used. If they were, I'll bet it was only rarely.

Thanks again for your help.

Pete

[passengerfan]

The Super Chief was completely re-equipped in 1950-51 except for the VISTA Series 4-Drawing Room 1-Double Bedroom Lounge Observations. At that time the Super Chief was assigned a Baggage Car , 60'RPO, 10-6 Sleeper Palm or Pine series, 10-6 Sleeper Palm or Pine Series, 4-2-4 Regal Series sleeper, 600 series 36-seat dining Car, 500 series Pleasure Dome, 4-4-2 Regal Serties Sleeper, 10-6 Pine or Palm series sleeper, and Vista Series Sleeper Lounge Observation. When the train was particularly busy it was not unusual to find a Blue series 10-2-3 operating as an extra sleeper ahead of the Obs. Hope this helps. Power was from the pool and was usually A-B-B-A sets of F7 or F-3 or combinations. All Santa Fe Passenger F-3 units were brought up to F-7 standards and were not easy to tell apart except by numbers.

[passengerfan]

Missed two cars the Baggage Crew Dormitory trailed the RPO and the Pleasure Dome was ahead of the diner in the consist. During peak travel times such as Xmas and the peak summer travel an extra 4-2-4 and and 10-3-2 were carried. The Baggage Crew Dormitory replaced the Baggage.

[richardy]

Pete:

I found some information and an undated picture of the SC. The original consist I spoke of above carried 104 manifest passengers not including train crew. The picture is a much larger train and has four F units A-B-B-A pulling at least 13 cars, I cannot see the end since the train curves around a mountain. A baggage car is up front followed by the RPO then sleepers, the first sleeper behind the RPO is blue. The rest of the visable consist is stainless, the Pleasure Dome is the 8th car from the headend. This train was not carrying the Baggage Crew Dormitory that passengerfan spoke of above.

Richard

[passengerfan]

Absolutely correct Richard I have two pages of info on the SUPER CHIEF and EL CAP together, must have been looking at both at the same time. The Baggage Crew Dorm was on the El Cap and the dining car crew of the Super Chief was carried in a Dormitory Club Lounge Car located to the rear of the dining car. These cars were Santa Fe 1390 - 1395. Thx

[Anonymous]

The post-WWII Super Chief was assigned baggage-dormitory cars only briefly. Such cars were assigned only from 1948 until the dome-lounges were delivered in 1950. The train also used Budd lounge-dormitories (series 1390-95) from 1948 until those cars were replaced by the Pullman-Standard lounge-dormitories (series 1339-44) in 1950 (these are the cars modeled by Walthers).

The initial streamlined Super Chief of 1937 had a lounge-dormitory ("Acoma" #1370). This car was supplemented in 1938 with baggage-dormitory-lounge "San Clemente" #1386. The second Super Chief consist, delivered in 1938, also had a lounge-dormitory, "Agathla" #1377 and a baggage-dormitory-lounge, "San Acacia" #1387.

[timz]

In January 1954 the Chief started leaving Chicago at 0900, so it couldn't take the thru cars from NY (and Washington?) any more-- so the Super got them for a few years. Dunno if they used PRR/NYC sleepers, tho.

[Anonymous]

Timz makes a good point about the transcontinental sleepers. As of January 1953, there were still 4 daily transcontinental sleepers on the Chief: a Washington-San Diego 10-6 (via B&O east of Chicago), a New York City-Los Angeles 4-4-2 (via PRR east of Chicago), and a New York City-Los Angeles 4-4-2 and 10-6 (via NYC east of Chicago).

I believe the Washington line was the first to be discontinued, but don't know exactly when. The PRR line continued until 1957, but PRR's two-tone gray 4-4-2's were withdrawn when the switch was made to the Super Chief (thereafter, only ATSF "Regal" sleepers were regularly assigned to protect this assignement).

The NYC through sleeper line continued until early 1958, but I can't say which, if any, NYC cars protected this service after the switch to the Super.

Since most of the cars assigned to transcontinental service on these lines were ATSF, it's safe to represent any of them with ATSF models (and commensurately difficult to pick out transcontinental sleepers in photos of the Super Chief from that era).

And, looking through photos of the Chief in the late '40s, I was reminded that streamlined baggage-dormitory-lounge cars were reassigned from the Chief to the Super Chief in 1948, whereupon heavyweight cars of similar configuration (some in silver shadowlined paint) were placed in the Chief's consists. The streamlined cars went back to th Chief when the dome lounges arrived for the Super Chief in 1950.

[timz]

The 4/57 timetable still shows all four East Coast cars.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to one and all for the helpful information. One of the more complete descriptions was the information on the “Railfan” web site:

http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=ATSF;action=display;num=1081891703

There were excellent comments on the Classic Trains Forums, the Model Railroad General Discussion Forum, and the Model Railroad Prototype Forum. I’m posting this to all three so that no one will miss the link above. I’ve also “distilled” the various posts in the Railfan Forum—there were some comments by others in the middle of Norm Anderson’s post, and he had to post the original message in several parts—so I’ve reduced it to his full story and his list of reference material. If anyone is interested, please send me an e-mail, and I will reply with the story as an attachment. It prints out to nine (9) pages.

I’ve chosen to concentrate on the consist used from 1951-1956. After 1956, the Super Chief and the El Capitan were combined, and some of the eastern cars were added. Here is basically the consist as Norm presented it:

“INTO THE '50s...


Just three years later (the 1948 equipment likely hadn't even been paid-off yet!) Santa Fe decided to again re-equip the Super Chief with brand-new equipment. The big news for this 1951 upgrade was the arrival of six "Turquoise Room/Pleasure Dome Lounge Cars" from Pullman-Standard. For nearly four years, these would be the only Domes into Los Angeles. Unlike most Domes before and since, which offered two-and-two seating in the upstairs Dome area, the Pleasure domes provided extra-wide, swiveling individual seats under glass. This Parlor-Car approach to Dome seating was unique to these six cars. Downstairs, the cars contained a main lounge area in the "long end", a serving bar in the "step-down" area underneath the Dome, and even boasted a private dining room (billed as "The Turquoise Room") which could be reserved in advance for private dinner parties of up to twelve guests. Pullman-Standard also provided seven companion Diners for this service. Over the next twenty years, right up to the advent of Amtrak in 1971, these Diners (Nos. 600 - 606) were paired with the Pleasure Domes, and were never, ever assigned to any other Santa Fe service. Operationally, the Pleasure Domes were run "long-end-forward", so that the Turquoise Room in the "short end" would be positioned right next to the Diner, which was operated "kitchen-forward".


"Typical" Super Chief Consist, 1951 - 1956

38L EMD F-7A Locomotive [Number Boards read "38"]
38A EMD F-7B Locomotive
38B EMD F-7B Locomotive
38C EMD F-7A Locomotive [Number Boards read "38C"]
3415 Baggage Car
83 Railway Post Office
1385 San Pascal Baggage/Barber Shop/Buffet Lounge Car
Palm Top Sleeping Car-- (10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms)
Pine Arroyo Sleeping Car-- (10 Roomettes, 6 Double bedrooms)
Regal Corps Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2 Drawing Rooms, 4 double Bedrooms)
502 Turquoise Room/Pleasure Dome Lounge Car
605 Fred Harvey Dining Car
1395 Dormitory/Club Lounge Car
Regal Hunt Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2 Drawing Rooms, 4 Double Bedrooms)
Regal Manor Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2 Drawing Rooms, 4 double Bedrooms)
Palm Lore Sleeping Car-- (10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms)
Vista Club Observation Lounge Car-- (4 Drawing Rooms, 1 Double Bedroom)

This would be the last major upgrade for the Super Chief, and likely represents the high-water-mark for this service. Indeed, the six Pleasure domes and seven companion Diners would be the last new equipment delivered to Santa Fe by Pullman-Standard, although ACF and Budd would continue to supply new cars into 1964.”

I realize this post is a little longer than I had planned, but I thought you might enjoy Norm’s commentary on that period as well as the consist. Again, thanks to all of you who were so helpful. I’m constantly amazed at the vast sources of information all of you possess. You remind me how much I have to learn.

Pete

[timz]

"After 1956, the Super Chief and the El Capitan were combined"

As I recall, it was January 1958.

And like I said, the four East Coast cars appeared on the Super in 1/54.

[Anonymous]

IF you can find it. A book called Some Classic Trains. It has great pictures and the history of the train

[Anonymous]

As to the F-units . . . Santa Fe kept its passenger and freight F3 and F7 units in the original numerically matched sets most of the time until about 1960, when they were broken up into individual units. Thus, when an A-B-B-A of F3's or F7's was used, one cab (the L unit) displayed the engine number in its number boards, while the other cab (the C unit) displayed the same number and the C suffix in its number boards. The engines were usually turned at each end of the run until the mid-1950's, after which the C unit often was the lead unit. On the transcontinental trains, the pilots received a fresh coat of paint every trip.

But back to the F7's and the Super Chief . . . Santa Fe bought three configurations:
1 the 4-unit sets with 2-digit numbers
2 the 3-unit A-B-B bobtails in 300-Class (100 MPH) and 325-Class (80 MPH)
3 A couple of bobtail A-B sets for short trains and to fill in for units receiving unscheduled repairs.

The 300-Class bobtails were standard on the Super Chief from 1949 to 1951.

[Anonymous]

And don't forget, modelers, ATSF had no boilers in the F series A units, so they always were on a passenger train with at least one B unit, which did have a boiler.

Use of a B unit in a consist of Fs was essential even in summer, since ATSF used predominately steam ejector air conditioning on its LW cars, which requires a constant source of steam in order to air condition the cars.

ATSF pax trains pulled by a single F unit, even if only 1-2 cars, is not prototypical and would not have been done except in the gravest emergency.

[Anonymous]

Peter -

There is a great website for Santa Fe information, including passenger trains - www.qstation.org - once you get to the home page, select the "ATSF Resources" section - and keep scrolling down until you see the topic "Super Chief consists." There are sample consists for 1953, 1957, 159-1962, and 1962-1964. Note that for the summers of 1962-1964, not only did the Super and El Cap run separately, but on Mondays and Thursdays for those three summers, there were actually three scheduled sections departing from Chicago and Los Angeles on those days of the week - you basically had the following three sections running on each others' "clear blocks" - or only minutes apart: 1) Super Chief - sleeping car section with pleasure dome and 600 series diners; 2) Super Chief - single level 44-seat coach section with lunch counter diner; and 3) El Capitan with Hi-level equipment.

Anyway, I understand your focus is on the 1950's - In the summer of 1957 (I believe the Super and El Cap were combined in the off searsons beginning on Jan. 12, 1958), the Super typically ran about 13-14 cars. Also keep in mind that for many years, and RPO and a 10-6 sleeper were usually added to the Super westbound from Kansas City, and cut out on eastbound #18 at KC.

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

I think that you are right about the Super Chief and I don't think that there was more than one diner on the train. I would like to know if the Super Chief and the Chief is the same train.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Super Chief was #'s 17-18 and ran into the Amtrak era. It was originally weekly train, later upped to bi-weekly then daily.

The Chief was #19-20 and was discontinued in 1969. It always ran daily and was an all-Pullman train until the Super Chief went to daily operation.

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Super Chief was #'s 17-18 and ran into the Amtrak era. It was originally weekly train, later upped to bi-weekly then daily.

The Chief was #19-20 and was discontinued in 1969. It always ran daily and was an all-Pullman train until the Super Chief went to daily operation.

Actually, the Chief was discontinued in 1968 and it was operated as an All-Pullman opertation until 1954. The Super Chief became a daily train in 1948.

[Anonymous]

I have an Official Guide from December 1956 (I think) that gives the following consist for the Super Chief : 4-1 observation lounge, Pleasure Dome lounge, lounge car (probably lounge dormitory), dining car, 10-6 (KC to LA), 10-6 (Chicago to LA), 10-6 (Washington to San Diego), 10-6 (NY to LA from the Century), 4-4-2 (NY to LA from the Century), 4-4-2 (NY to LA from the Broadway), 4-4-2 (Chicago to LA)

Night Trains (by Peter Malken) gives the March 1953 consist as the same dining and lounge accommodations and following sleepers: 10-6 (KC to LA), 10-6 (Chicago to LA, 3 cars), and 4-4-2 (Chicago to LA, 3 cars)

[Anonymous]

Try this website- www.katousa.com They are coming out with a N-scale Super Chief. The set preferances include car names+numbers, and F-7 Numbers. It has 12 cars+4engines

[Anonymous]

Re: Consist in the Fifties: What about the "Grand Canyon" car that was dropped off in the middle of the night?