Mysterious 460 supplied to Indochina Railways by Mitsui in 1916

[Janez]

 

Hi,

 

 

We are a small group of expats living in Vietnam and are working on a website about the history of the railways of Indochina & Vietnam and are of course struggling with incomplete locomotive rosters and general lack of documentation not to mention actual "specimens"etc. etc.

 

  One of the mysteries is a meter gauge (very light) 460 locomotive (3 pcs ) that were supplied to CF Indochine by Mitsui company in 1916.

 

  (None of the locomotives survived and so far no photo found. )

 

 460 by Mitsui to CFI in 1916

 

 on Flickr

 

 There were a lot similarish 460s sold to different Brazilian railways in those times, so maybe this one could be related ?

 

 And you are of course welcome to explore the biggest ever Indochina/Vietnam collection of railway related photos and infos on

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189316830@N03/

 

[Overmod]

J.D.H.Smith doesn't even mention a class 230.100.  It might be interesting to compare numbers with the Fives-Lille 230.001 which are footnoted as being similar to Indonesian locomotives.

What are the references for Japanese-sourced Brazilian steam in that era?

[Janez]

 

Well, there are a few fringe locos that J.D.H.Smith didn't mention on CFI.

 

This one was not a big player with only three on the roster.

 

Fives-Lilles was almost twice the weight .

 

I managed to drop out the “Baldwin” name earlier:

 

 There were a lot similarish 460s sold to different Brazilian railways by Baldwin in those times, so maybe this one could be related ?

 

 

So I am looking for Baldwin delivery list data for Mitsui for 1916 or a bit earlier.

1916 was in the middle of WW1 in Europe, so European suppliers are pretty unlikely , German suppliers were on the wrong side of the front and French would not use Mitsui to buy a European product.

 

 

 

Brazilian 460 meter gauge links

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/country.cfm?which=brazil

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12458

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12330

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12333

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=28987

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12458

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12420

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12319

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=12389

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=sorocabana

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=efde

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=sa

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=funilense

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=bam

 

 

 

[Overmod]

Janez

So I am looking for Baldwin delivery list data for Mitsui for 1916 or a bit earlier.

I'm pretty sure Mitsui, rapidly growing to become Japan's largest zaibatsu, would not have ordered locomotives from Baldwin to re-ship to Indochina -- but Mitsubishi was founded as a 'trading' house and I believe was primarily in that line and not heavy construction until fairly late.

The combine was broken up during the Allied occupation of Japan but it's possible that records of the transaction exist.  If those are located it could probably be determined if the locomotives were either sourced from Baldwin for resale or assembled 'under license' with either Baldwin erecting plans or the aid of Baldwin parts.

[Janez]

So Mitsui was only involved in trading Alco locomotives strictly for Japan only despite having offices all over Asia including Indochina ?

https://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/file.php?1,file=77001,in_body_attachment=1

 

 

	SHOP	YEAR	TYPE	FIRST OWNER	ROAD #	SECOND OWNER
37563	Rog	1907	4-4-0	Mitsui & Co.	50	South Manchurian Railway
37564	Rog	1907	4-4-0	Mitsui & Co.	51	South Manchurian Railway
37565	Rog	1907	4-4-0	Mitsui & Co.	52	South Manchurian Railway
37566	Rog	1907	4-4-0	Mitsui & Co.	53	South Manchurian Railway
50769	Sch	1912	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	620	(South Manchuria China)
50770	Sch	1912	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	621	(South Manchuria China)
50771	Sch	1912	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	622	(South Manchuria China)
50772	Sch	1912	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	623	(South Manchuria China)
50773	Sch	1912	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	624	(South Manchuria China)
51943	Rog	1912	2-6-2t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Yokohoma Railway
54775	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	271
54776	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	272
54777	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	273
54778	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	274
54779	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	275
54780	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	276
54781	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	277
54782	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	278
54783	Sch	1914	4-6-0	Mitsui & Co.	279
55000	Cooke	1915	2-8-2	Mitsui & Co.	180	Pekin Kalgon
55033	Sch	1915	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	12
55034	Sch	1915	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	13
55035	Sch	1915	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	14
55036	Sch	1915	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	15
55249	Cooke	1916	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Nippon Seikosho Railway
56495	Brks	1916	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	250	Shantung Railway
56496	Brks	1916	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	251	Shantung Railway
56497	Brks	1916	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	252	Shantung Railway
56979	Cooke	1917	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Mitsubishi Dock Yard
56980	Cooke	1917	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Imperial Japanese Navy Yard
56981	Cooke	1917	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Imperial Japanese Navy Yard
55428	Cooke	1918	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Kajima Coal Mines
55429	Cooke	1918	0-4-0t	Mitsui & Co.	00	Kajima Coal Mines
58283	Cooke	1918	2-6-2t	Mitsui & Co.	1
59289	Pgh	1918	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	253	Shantung Railway
59290	Pgh	1918	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	254	Shantung Railway
59990	Pgh	1919	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	255??	Shantung Railway
59991	Pgh	1919	2-8-0	Mitsui & Co.	256??	Shantung Railway
59090	Cooke	1918	0-4-0t	Mitsui Co.	00	Kure Navy Yard (Imperial Japanese Navy)