Heres a link to some info and pics on North British Locomotive Company. Scotland's equivalent to ALCO, Baldwin or Lima. Similar story staggered along with the 1st gen diesels then went under in the mid 1960s. I toured round the plant with my father in 1970ish before it was demolished.
You may notice that the builder's plate is very similar to Lima.
Other obscure fact. One of the engineering directors from here was enticed by the Van Sweringen bros over to their mechanical advisory committee and was part of the team who delivered the Allegheny.
https://libcat.csglasgow.org/web/arena/nbl
Many thanks!
I'm afraid the second photo shows an Indian Railways class XD 2-8-2. North British delivered 110 of these Mikes in 1945/46 (c/n 25646 - 25755):
http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Ans_05373-3037-FL
The last photo shows a 4-6-4 (probably No. 737) of course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_R_class
Best wishes from Germany, Helmut
The third photo shows one of forty New Zealand Railways J class 4-8-2s built in 1939-40. These were fitted (clearly after the photo was taken) with a conical nose and skyline casing vaguely like the New Haven I-5 4-6-4. Sixteen more without streamlining were built by NBL in the early 1950s as class Ja. NZR built another 35 Ja themselves.
These were all regarded as a great success, unlike the Victorian R class.
The VR R class were quickly superseded by EMD diesel locomotives. For various reasons, mainly clearance problems, the EMD locomotives in New Zealand (Da class, model G12) were limited to part of the North Island Main Trunk line and were used more on freight traffic than passenger services, which gave the Js and Jas, particularly those on the South Island an opportunity to operate as intended for much longer.
Peter
Were any of the New Zealand Js saved operable?
The Victorian Rs were successful as Les related, after remedial action and before service, in the railway workshops. But most modern and successful steam power met the same fate at the hands of diesel replacements, with EMD being the biggest factor. Including the UK's Evening Star, the USA's Niagras and eventually even the N&W's Js, Ys, and As.
The fact that one R was converted to Standard Gauge, with five preserved operational, shows the design to be highly regarded.
Why was it necessary to haul North British locomtives through streets to dockside. Didn't both docks and the factory have rail access?
daveklepper Were any of the New Zealand Js saved operable? The Victorian Rs were successful as Les related, after remedial action and before service, in the railway workshops. But most modern and successful steam power met the same fate at the hands of diesel replacements, with EMD being the biggest factor. Including the UK's Evening Star, the USA's Niagras and eventually even the N&W's Js, Ys, and As. The fact that one R was converted to Standard Gauge, with five preserved operational, shows the design to be highly regarded. Why was it necessary to haul North British locomtives through streets to dockside. Didn't both docks and the factory have rail access?
J 1211, J 1236, Ja 1240, Ja 1250, Ja 1260, Ja 1271 and Ja 1275 are preserved in working order. A number of others may be restored to operation.
The Malayan locomotive seen being hauled by road was metre gauge and the Victorian locomotive was broad (5'3") gauge. The VR locomotive exceeded the British Loading Gauge and could not have been rail hauled even on standard gauge axles.
The Victorian R class were largely used on secondary passenger trains and on freight traffic by the time I saw them in the early 1960s.
The NZ J and Ja classes had a longer career in passenger service, by about ten years for the post WWII locomotives.
Ja's were and are among the best-loved restored steam in NZ. I confess to being more partial to the K 4-8-4s but the Mountains are probably better-running engines.
If I remember correctly the V-class Hudsons were specially designed for easy gauge conversion; the driver centers were dished and the pin seats bored such that reversing them on the axles would give the result, without resorting to wider tires or other expedients.
Overmod Ja's were and are among the best-loved restored steam in NZ. I confess to being more partial to the K 4-8-4s but the Mountains are probably better-running engines. If I remember correctly the R-class Hudsons were specially designed for easy gauge conversion; the driver centers were dished and the pin seats bored such that reversing them on the axles would give the result, without resorting to wider tires or other expedients.
If I remember correctly the R-class Hudsons were specially designed for easy gauge conversion; the driver centers were dished and the pin seats bored such that reversing them on the axles would give the result, without resorting to wider tires or other expedients.
The original NZR K class had plate frames, and by the 1950s these required replacement. The later Ka and Kb classes had stronger plate frames, that were fitted to some K class. But the J class had bar frames, which combined with roller bearings on the axles (and on the rods on most of the Ja class) made these locomotives better performers within their power range. The Ja class had similar availabilty figures to diesel locomotives, although they did not run the long distances of diesel locomotives.
The Victorian R class had bar frames spaced at a standard gauge dimension. They did not have the dished wheels seen on South Australian locomotives after 1926. I'm told by a former VR engineer, Mr Phil Dunne, that the VR were concerned that the dished wheels resulted in high stresses in some areas of the wheelsets. Only one group of locomotives with the SAR dished wheels, the Commonwealth Railways L class 2-8-2s, operated on standard gauge. It is instructive to compare the CR L class with the SAR 740 class, which were similar except for being 5'3" gauge, showing the apperance of the dished wheels in each position.
THe VR R class had to have the wheel removed and placed on shorter axles for use on standard gauge. This also meant that the cylinders had to be removed from the frame, and spacers between the cylinder castings removed before replacement.
One advantage of this was that the width over the cylinders was reduced. The SAR designs maintained the width over cylinders on both gauges, and this meant that the CR L/SAR 740 could not operate on standard gauge in New South Wales owing to restricted clearances. As modified, the R class is not so restricted.
M636C: By the time you saw the Victorian Rs, diesels had usurped the top passenger runs?
And has or is Victoria converting all intercity to standard-gauge for natiomwide staderdization, leaving the Melbourne commuter network broad-gauge?
And then North British moving locomotives through streets to docks appears a matter of clearances, otherwise non-standard-gauge locomitives could have been loaded on special flatcars. Possibly shipped as componants, frames, boilers, etc., for assembly at railway workshops. Possibly this was done in some cases?
daveklepper M636C: By the time you saw the Victorian Rs, diesels had usurped the top passenger runs? And has or is Victoria converting all intercity to standard-gauge for natiomwide staderdization, leaving the Melbourne commuter network broad-gauge? And then North British moving locomotives through streets to docks appears a matter of clearances, otherwise non-standard-gauge locomitives could have been loaded on special flatcars. Possibly shipped as componants, frames, boilers, etc., for assembly at railway workshops. Possibly this was done in some cases?
I think I only ever saw one regular service passenger train hauled by an R class. This was the afternoon train from Ararat to Horsham. This train was worked from Melbourne by a B class double ended diesel which worked another train straight back. Later the train was worked by J class 2-8-0s since the schedule wasn't very demanding.
Many of the R class were stored when they fell due for their first major overhaul. I saw one of these, R 700, which had been shopped for the extra grain traffic in 1963/64. It was working a train of four wheel grain wagons, small gondolas covered by tarpaulins. It was picking up a group of wagons from a small town called Talbot. On my way to get a photo I found myself in the local stationmaster's chicken coop which used the rail boundary fence as one side of the enclosure. The red lining on R 700 still looked quite clean after its overhaul.
The gauge situation in Victoria is best described as chaotic.
As well as the commuter lines, the major intercity lines have remained broad gauge for passenger services. There has been extreme reluctance to provide standard gauge passenger services, possibly because it requires a dedicated fleet.
The only standard gauge passenger trains are those to Albury in the North East, the route of the original duplicate standard gauge line of 1962 (and one train three days a week to Adelaide, SA). Until 2008, all passenger trains to Albury were still on the parallel broad gauge line which carried no freight traffic until the broad gauge track needed complete replacement, when it was converted to standard to provide a double track line north of Seymour.
South of Seymour, the standard gauge remains single line, beside a double track broad gauge line carrying passenger trains for Seymour and Shepparton, and an occasional broad gauge freight train while the passenger trains to Albury, nearly twice as far from Melbourne, have to wait in loops on the standard gauge to cross the extensive freight traffic.
One of the problems is the small difference in gauge. This means a very narrow gap between rails in dual gauge track. In a recent scheme to extend standard gauge, one length of track between two major towns was to be converted to dual gauge to allow both freight (on SG) and passenger (on BG) to use the one track.
Owing to the small gap, broad gauge trains are limited to 80 km/h, 50mph on dual gauge track since it is felt that a brake block could fall into the narrow gap and cause a derailment.
The speed restriction would lengthen the journey time for passengers, so freight trains have to divert over secondary lines adding maybe a hundred miles to the journey and the dual gauge may not be installed.
Of course, if the passenger trains were standard gauge there would be no speed restriction.
But many of the main intercity passenger lines were rebuilt with new rail and concrete sleepers (ties) making conversion to SG very costly. Dual gauge sleepers (ties) could have been used with a very low additional cost but there is a reluctance to admit tha a single gauge would be preferable outside the Melbourne urban area.
To return to the less depressing subject of North British, I'd agree that limited rail clearances would be the main reason for road transport.
I gather, then, that much freight is lost by rail to road-haullage because of the need to transload or swap trucks/bogies. additional time and expense.
I was in Glasgow back in 2002. My other hobby besides railroads is naval ships. There's a huge hammerhead crane preserved in Glasgow. At first, I thought it belonged to one of the old shipyards. After doing some research, I found out it was used at the wharves to lift export locomotives onto ships.
Backshop I was in Glasgow back in 2002. My other hobby besides railroads is naval ships. There's a huge hammerhead crane preserved in Glasgow. At first, I thought it belonged to one of the old shipyards. After doing some research, I found out it was used at the wharves to lift export locomotives onto ships.
There was a huge hammerhead crane in Sydney, Australia in the Garden Island naval base, and there was some thought of preserving it but it was demolished eventually.
There is a photo of a North British built 2-8-2 being unloaded by a purpose built gantry crane in Melbourne Victoria.
N class steam locomotives (victorianrailways.net)
scroll down to the third photo...
There are also photos of R class 4-6-4s being unloaded.
R class steam locomotives (victorianrailways.net)
Again , scroll down...
A Hammerhead crane would do the same job...
daveklepper I gather, then, that much freight is lost by rail to road-haullage because of the need to transload or swap trucks/bogies. additional time and expense.
Much of the remaining traffic on the Broad Gauge is seasonal grain traffic although there is some export container traffic. Both of these go straight to the export port without needing transshipment.
Changing trucks between gauges has long ceased.
The main traffic requiring transshipment is coil steel sheet used to produce steel roofing and cladding. There was a yard in central Melbourne where this transshipping was done, but this was sold off for high rise housing and the transhipping is carried out on two adjacent tracks in the main container yard a couple of miles away. The coil is lifted by a (very big) modified fork lift and just moved from one wagon to the other.
But there is a lot of traffic lost to road, not just in Victoria but in other states where there is only a single gauge.
Here's a link to a video from around 15 years ago when a SAR 15F mountain was repatriated from Bloomfontaine to Glasgow. Not sure if it was broadcast outside the UK?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae8rOmh3RpU
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