And The Curtain Is Coming Down...

[Flintlock76]

On the old Hotel Pennsylvania in New York.

Here's the story courtesy of Wanswheel.

https://www.curbed.com/2021/04/so-long-to-the-hotel-pennsylvania.html

And a little something to remember the old times with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcToigjcaX4  

 

[NKP guy]

   The Hotel Pennsylvania won't be missed.  I last stayed a night there in 1990 (that's 31 years ago) and thought it then to be the saddest, most neglected, and lowest-class hotel I have ever stayed in.  If you haven't seen it, you can't even imagine it.

   So, there are plans to replace the hotel with another skyscraper?  Really?  Who's about to invest big bucks in that, when nearby Hudson Yards has acres of new, unleased office space looking for tennants?

   

   

[Flintlock76]

NKP guy

   So, there are plans to replace the hotel with another skyscraper?  Really?  Who's about to invest big bucks in that, when nearby Hudson Yards has acres of new, unleased office space looking for tennants?

It makes no sense to me either, especially since the real estate market in North Jersey is hot-hot-hot with NYC bail-outs.  

Well, as the saying goes, "Even if it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to someone!"

By the way, in my humble opinion that proposed skyscraper looks like hell!  As far as I'm concerned there should have been a law passed in New York decades ago that NOTHING can be taller than the Empire State Building.

And why not?  It's hallowed ground.  It's where King Kong died!

[NKP guy]

Flintlock76

It's where King Kong died!

I heard he was buried at Fresh Kills and that's how it got its name.

(wink)

 

[Overmod]

Seems to me that what they're proposing is an interesting building... even if its name is not.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/06/new-york-penn-15-skyscraper-andrew-cuomo

Much of the design of my skyscraper 'to go over Grand Central' if the landmark law wasn't upheld would be applicable to the 1919 structure of the existing building.  (And the guy with the house structure still has it!!!)

I think Cuomo may be going down (in the bad sense) long before much of his grand plan gets anywhere.  So this might be a little premature.  As noted this might not be the best time to build a new superhigh in that area, even if it's at a good transit nexus.

 

[Flintlock76]

More from the mighty Wanswheel.

It could be very  important if your going to "Leave the Pennsylvania Station at a quarter-to-four."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015086591909&view=1up&seq=85

https://2486634c787a971a3554-d983ce57e4c84901daded0f67d5a004f.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/new-york-hotel-pennsylvania/media/hotelpenn-gallery-30-5cc0855793eb5.jpg?_ga-ft=1WWsSh.0.0.0.0.1OeGd1Z-1OP8a1O.0.0

[Overmod]

In my opinion, very few people will need to make it from their hotel to a train to Chattanooga these days. 

Many, many more, though, would enjoy (or, these days, tolerate) scuttling through the walls under the 7th Avenue Subway from their various arrival tracks to go to work, play, or perhaps rest in PENN 15.

Someone like Mike should go carefully through that list of 1919 amenities and tot up how many were still present -- or relevant as 'luxuries' -- even by the age of the renovations up to the '70s.

There has been much written over the last 50 years about practical needs for New York hotel rooms that people voluntarily occupy for the required cost.  About the only thing that does this in the envelope of the room structure imposed by the 1919 construction is something like the Manhattan Club -- and even at their rates, I suspect most customers outside the modern equivalent of 'bachelor quarters' or the famous New York 'SRO' would choose such an option in that part of midtown.  I suspect Steven Roth knows quite well what the market will bear -- both now and prospectively post-pandemic -- as well as reasonable costs to remove structure and construct new to 'open up' the smaller rooms.

This even before looking at the additional space in the much higher structure using more of the applicable footprint...

[Flintlock76]

Well Mike's not quite done with us yet!  Wanna go down the basement?

https://ia601801.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/15/items/sim_architectural-forum_1919-04_30_4/sim_architectural-forum_1919-04_30_4_jp2.zip&file=sim_architectural-forum_1919-04_30_4_jp2/sim_architectural-forum_1919-04_30_4_0014.jp2&id=sim_architectural-forum_1919-04_30_4&scale=2&rotate=0

Overmod

In my opinion, very few people will need to make it from their hotel to a train to Chattanooga these days. 

Oh c'mon, you know a little artistic license when you see it!

[Flintlock76]

Overmod

I think Cuomo may be going down (in the bad sense) long before much of his grand plan gets anywhere. 

I haven't heard too much about him lately, certainly not in the national press and not in the North Jersey press.  I suppose I'll have to go on-line to the NY Post or the NY Daily News.

I won't bother with the NY Times site, they don't give anything  away.  Maybe ice in the winter.

I know, , I'll say no more.  

Except I doubt Andy's getting "railroaded."  

[NKP guy]

   I note the tunnel under 7th Ave connecting the station to the hotel.  Convenient!  My guess is that it was bricked up by the time the old station was demolished.  I wonder if the tunnel's still there.  

   I enjoyed looking at the architectural magazine and its story on Firestone Heights in Akron.  

   As cartoonist Jimmy Hatlo might say, "A tip of the hat to Wanswheel."  And you, too, Flintlock.

[Overmod]

.

[Overmod]

On the other side, we have this:

https://untappedcities.com/2016/06/22/video-rediscovering-the-new-yorker-hotels-underground-tunnel-to-penn-station/

and here is a hotel built a decade later, on the corner of 7th and 31st, that advertised it had its own tunnel to Pennsylvania Station:

https://www.14to42.net/31street4.3.html

And this -- which was actually going to be improved in 2010 in return for an earlier agreement to let the hotel be reconfigured into office space:

https://nypost.com/2010/11/28/remembering-the-gimbels-tunnel/

[Flintlock76]

More from Mike.

https://ia801505.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/11/items/sim_u-s-news-weekly-special-issues_1947-07-11_23/sim_u-s-news-weekly-special-issues_1947-07-11_23_jp2.zip&file=sim_u-s-news-weekly-special-issues_1947-07-11_23_jp2/sim_u-s-news-weekly-special-issues_1947-07-11_23_0050.jp2&id=sim_u-s-news-weekly-special-issues_1947-07-11_23&scale=2&rotate=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0lKssb0EQ&t=10s

I can't say I'm impressed with those "improvements."  They strike me as lackluster and pretty uninspired.  It might as well be a Motel 6.  In my mind going into the Hotel Pennsylvania should have been like a time machine back to 1919, but better, if you know what I mean, like a visit to the lobby of the Empire State or Chrysler buildings is like a trip back to the 1930's.

It's all moot now anyway. 

[Overmod]

Flintlock76

...like a visit to the lobby of the Empire State or Chrysler buildings is like a trip back to the 1930's.

Or like a visit to the lobby of the Chanin Building is a trip back to the '20s.  (Something I never realized was how tall that building was...)

If Lady Firestorm has never seen this... she has a treat in store.

[Flintlock76]

I found a photo spread of the Chanin Building's architectural features and showed them to Lady Firestorm.  It took me 20 minutes to mop up the drool!

It's too bad we didn't know about the Chanin, it's not too far from the Chrysler Building and we certainly wouldn't have missed it had we known.

It's a sure thing one could spend a lifetime studying New York architecture and never get bored!

Anyway, more from Wanswheel:

https://magazineproject.org/TIMEvault/1947/1947-05-26/1947-05-26%20page%2043.jpg

https://magazineproject.org/TIMEvault/1947/1947-08-18/1947-08-18%20page%2035.jpg

https://magazineproject.org/TIMEvault/1947/1947-09-15/1947-09-15%20page%2041.jpg

How does Mike come up with this stuff?  I'm glad he's one of the good guys!

I'll keep moving his finds along until he gets tired!

 

[Jones1945]

Flintlock76

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0lKssb0EQ&t=10s I can't say I'm impressed with those "improvements."  They strike me as lackluster and pretty uninspired.  It might as well be a Motel 6.  In my mind going into the Hotel Pennsylvania should have been like a time machine back to 1919, but better, if you know what I mean, like a visit to the lobby of the Empire State or Chrysler buildings is like a trip back to the 1930's. It's all moot now anyway. 

I am not impressed either! The management should have paid a visit to a hotel like Hotel de la Coupole in Saba, Vietnam to get some inspiration. The building of Hotel de la Coupole is quite new but the antique-style interior is magnificent. It is not perfect for sure but a good example of using modern material to recreate a warm and antique atmosphere. 

[Overmod]

Ah, yes, Bill Bensley, who proves there are foamers in communities outside railfanning... 

There is quite a bit more in Sa Pa, too; it has a bit of the unexpected-discovery-of-grandeur you find in Port-au-Pic.

Now if you have read Mike's material, and are familiar with Statler, you will know that the Hotel Pennsylvania for all its ingenious amenities was never intended as a MGallery property -- in Accor terms, it would be Sofitel grade at most.  It's a drummer's hotel done the Statler way, with the right touch of amenities and services for that kind of traveler... not the grande luxe five-star puttin'-on-the-Ritz tipathon experience.   There actually would be precedent for Accor to do a 21c-style project with a New York hotel, now that they own an 85% stake in 21c ... but it would not likely be that New York hotel.  (Perhaps my beloved Plaza-Athenee?)

[Flintlock76]

Thanks Mr. Jones, now that's what I'm talkin' about! And it's in 'Nam, of all places! OK, a revitalized Hotel Pennsylvania wouldn't need to go quite that far, maybe only half-way, but it should be an experience and not just a stay.

More from Wanswheel, he's not tired yet!

https://magazineproject.org/TIMEvault/1945/1945-12-10/1945-12-10%20page%2037.jpg

https://magazineproject.org/TIMEvault/1944/1944-12-11/1944-12-11%20page%2037.jpg

Now THIS is really interesting!  Proposed landing strips on the roof of Pennsylvania Station.  It might  have worked back in the 1920's considering the fairly short take-off rolls of the airplanes of the time, but today?  Forget it!  

And of course this was before practical helicopters were invented.

https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/14193hjpg

https://twitter.com/discovering_NYC/status/793784742541864960

 

[NKP guy]

   Many thanks to Wanswheel, Flintlock, & Overmod (what a great name for a law firm!) for the compendium of information regarding the Hotel Pennsylvania as well as the New Yorker Hotel.

   I agree with Flintlock about those tunnels.  They might have been a good idea back when everyone (semingly) behaved himself, but today they would be abused in no time flat.  That may be why they were walled off some years ago.

   Overmod's description of the Pennsylvania as a "drummer's hotel" and the Statler chain as catering to them was on the mark.  That speaks to my understanding why the hotels along 34th Street were so different from those on Fifth Avenue.  

   The photos of the New Yorker's lobby fascinated me because that room looks so different and so much better today.  Being a hotel with some pride still, there's a nice collection of old hotel memorabilia on display.

   Remember the famous night time photo of Pennsylvania Station from above?  The one with all the lighted glass down below?  That was taken from Room 3804 of the New Yorker, where I'll be staying again next week and where Glenn Miller will be playing, if not actually appearing.

 

[Overmod]

NKP guy

That was taken from Room 3804 of the New Yorker, where I'll be staying again next week and where Glenn Miller will be playing, if not actually appearing.

I won't lie: just the thought of this made me grin!

[Overmod]

.

[Overmod]

Flintlock76

Proposed landing strips on the roof of Pennsylvania Station.  It might  have worked back in the 1920's considering the fairly short take-off rolls of the airplanes of the time, but today?  Forget it!

Does the name Pitcairn ring a bell outside discussions of Pittsburgh or Capt. Bligh?

That proposal was right at the heyday of the autogiro (not a typo) which at the time was a valid competitor to 'airliners'.  There was quite a craze for them, in fact, as the mid-Twenties equivalent of what flying cars have been for the immediate future, five years away for the past 80-odd years or so...

The spurts of interest in tip-jet helicopters, including the Gyrodyne, are just improvements on the idea.  Pity they all went the same way, for much the same reason, as free-piston engines!

[Flintlock76]

Well, Pitcairn's autogiro wouldn't come along until 1931 or so, after those prints were published.  Juan de la Cierva's autogiro goes back to 1923 but just how common they were here in the US I don't know.  I'm sure they were known about in aviation circles.

And of course strictly speaking, autogiros aren't helicopters, but an ingenious step along the way.

[Overmod]

Flintlock76

I'm sure they were known about in aviation circles.

It's what they were known for: very short positive takeoffs even in turbulent wind conditions, and very short autorotation landings.  Perfect for all those Italian Futurist landing decks over railroad stations, no waiting for Sikorsky to do for rotary-wing aircraft what the Wrights did for fixed wing (e.g. make them practically flyable) and not needing huge reliable engines with complex powered control heads to run.

[daveklepper]

The Penn Station rooftop landing strip did make it to reality at Grand Central Terminal with New York Heliocopter's regular PanAm-Building-Rooftop - Kennedy service, which I used on a few occasions.  What actually put it out of business? Safety concerns?  For the general population?

[Flintlock76]

daveklepper

What actually put it out of business?

A good question.  Maybe in the end it just didn't pay?

[Overmod]

daveklepper

What actually put it out of business?

Massive unprofitability, part of which was insurance, part of which was equipment.  It never was safe, for much the same reason there was never dirigible service to the Empire State Building.

If I recall correctly this was one of the anticipated services for Gyrodynes, which might have been able to support the traffic to area airports (not just Kennedy).

I think a big piece of the premise was that it matched the promise of supersonic airliners being the 'big thing' replacing the first generation of jet transports.  The last-mile savings to midtown for business travelers in a hurry were different from people with luggage dropped off on top of something requiring much navigation including long elevator rides to get to hotels and stuff.  I think alternatives like the Train to the Plane were more sensible in the world that existed even by the time Concorde finally struggled into service...

[Flintlock76]

Holy smoke, leave it to Mike to come up with this!

I'm glad David wasn't on that one! https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/helicopter-flips-park-avenue-1977-article-1.2214161

[daveklepper]

Mike sent it to me, also.