Labour Day -- You may have to stand!

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Labour Day -- You may have to stand!
Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 31, 2020 1:32 PM

..., " it may be difficult to get... even standing room"! 

Well then just what the heck are you supposed to do? 

 

 

"We are not putting up with this and are leaving"

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 31, 2020 2:40 PM

Personally, given my opinion of the 'socialism' currently espoused by so many in and out of government ... I'm taking a knee.

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Posted by NKP guy on Monday, August 31, 2020 6:48 PM

 deleted.

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Posted by pennytrains on Monday, August 31, 2020 7:04 PM

Well....Bye, bye thread.  Wink

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 31, 2020 7:47 PM

Perhaps I should stop posting anything whatsoever until after Nov. 3.

Thats not a bad idea if this kind of crap persists.. on Classic! Not good.

I would have expected better from Overmod. 

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, August 31, 2020 9:24 PM

Yeah, for the love of God no politics here, please.  This place is a refuge and a "happy place" for most if not all of us.  Keep the real world out, we don't need it here.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, August 31, 2020 10:47 PM

I'll take a knee during a moment of silence while I remember all the past 'socialists' who fought for things like the 8-hour day, living wages, and safe working conditions. 

I could say more, but I won't.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 12:18 AM

Laboured. A remarkable performance.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 2:19 AM

I recall the jam-packed PRR trains NY-Washington during WWII.

Those who really needed a seat and could not get or could not afford a PRR parlor seat went B&O. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 9:14 AM

SD70Dude
I'll take a knee during a moment of silence while I remember all the past 'socialists' who fought for things like the 8-hour day, living wages, and safe working conditions. 

Kind of like Woodrow Wilson, who's on the "outs" now because of a certain character flaw not unusual for a man of his time that I won't go into.

Which is a damn shame, the man did a lot of good.

"Revolutions" can have a bad habit of eating their own if they're not careful.

Or maybe Shakespeare was right:

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 9:35 AM

Flintlock76
SD70Dude
I'll take a knee during a moment of silence while I remember all the past 'socialists' who fought for things like the 8-hour day, living wages, and safe working conditions. 

Kind of like Woodrow Wilson, who's on the "outs" now because of a certain character flaw not unusual for a man of his time that I won't go into.

While wrong, those views were widely held at the time by a certain large segment of the population. 

In that respect Wilson is not unlike our Sir John A. Macdonald, and without them our two countries would be very different today (Canada as we know it might not exist).

When judging historic figures one must take into account the era and culture they lived in, and we must also judge them as a whole, not only on a portion of their persona. 

Flintlock76

"Revolutions" can have a bad habit of eating their own if they're not careful.

Or maybe Shakespeare was right:

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."

"Good" things become a integral part of our societal fabric, and are therefore invisible despite having great effect on our daily lives.

"Bad" things were often stopped in the past, and stand out more obviously in contrast to today's society. 

What does any of this have to do with railroads?  Train and engine service employees were among the first to unionize in North America, and along with miners and steelworkers were among the first to start fighting for the labour standards that are now considered normal, among other things. 

And when I say "fight" I mean it literally. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 2:54 PM

There's a reason -- an important one -- I put 'socialism' in quotes.

As you know, I'm not a 'knee' jerk opponent of many of the proper ideas of socialism, or of the rights of labor in general (and of the proper rights of railroad labor in particular).  Nor -- significantly -- was I mocking even misplaced tyrannies of different kinds masquerading as 'socialistic' by taking a knee in recognition rather than standing ... just applying the same action often used in allegedly converse situations.

All this aside from the initial point that it was meant as a joke.  Perhaps I should have realized better than anyone how unfunny some 'jokes' can be.

While I think we need something other than labor solidarity to bring about a society that is more just and more fair, I do support the principle and the right to fair labor organizations -- and also the right of such organizations to make the rights of their members 'more important' than others (just as the formally-organized BLM does in a different context).

It has been especially hard for me to watch as the new era of robber-baron 'capitalism' has ruined so much of railroading so fast.  And to realize how long, and perhaps hard beyond expectations, recovery from that will be.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 3:19 PM

Well thank you for that.

I just do not see the need to wander into politics at all.. it creates division and this is not the place to argue a position or espouse a belief.

Why not focus on the remarkable sacrifices and effort of the war years.

Thats what Pennsy was saying and what the Cotton Belt recognized. 

Actually I find the lack of stories of railroading during the war years, which would have been the finest hour of North American railroading, a puzzling thing... I sure what to know more. Enough time has passed that freedom of information and many war tales of railroading can be told. 

I would love to see a movie, a real movie, made perhaps linking 10 tales or a dozen short stories using all the CGI to restore all that has been lost... before it is all forgotten or cared about. 

Looking at that map of the Cotton Belt and its role, its pride of service, it's importance is amazing and it was just really a bit player, but essential. It brings up immediately MKT, Frisco, Rock Island, and so many more.... all gone, ...not understandable actually. ( of course you can talk and explain to me until you're blue in the face but I still say Nuts to That!)

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 3:47 PM

Miningman
Looking at that map of the Cotton Belt and its role, its pride of service, it's importance is amazing and it was just really a bit player, but essential. It brings up immediately MKT, Frisco, Rock Island, and so many more.... all gone, ...not understandable actually. ( of course you can talk and explain to me until you're blue in the face but I still say Nuts to That!)

Remember Cotton Belt was far more important than it looks, and running it effectively far harder than might seem necessary.  I was a bit amused at the NP Eddie post on the BNSF heritage stickers that derided SSW people as a bunch of Southern hicks; it might be interesting to see who ran more trains faster per track especially in the wartime years...

If you don't have the Ball/Whitaker book Decade of the Trains, the 1940s you really, really should get a copy -- you will re-read it often.  I believe in there he hints without actually naming the SSW just how many trains they worked over that line.  Remember also that when the Blue Streak Merchandise was one of the key trains in the accelerated freight schedule revolution of the 1930s, SSW was a key link a good part of the way from Texas up to St. Louis...

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 3:52 PM

Overmod

Remember Cotton Belt was far more important than it looks, and running it effectively far harder than might seem necessary.  I was a bit amused at the NP Eddie post on the BNSF heritage stickers that derided SSW people as a bunch of Southern hicks; it might be interesting to see who ran more trains faster per track especially in the wartime years...

Frisco, not Cotton Belt, were the "southern clods".  Easy to confuse the two though (SSW vs SLSF). 

Considering Frisco's most notable and longest lasting creation, I find it hard to disagree with him. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 4:14 PM

Overmod-- I see SSW had a line into Memphis. Were they a major player in town, passenger?, freight?..are the tracks still around?

Also just North of that line there are numerous 'fingers' that seem to stop at the Tennessee state line. I assume these were connections and interchange.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 5:36 PM

SSW went into Memphis via the Harahan Bridge.  From Memphis west the line went to Brinkley, where it joined the 'main' coming down from St. Louis and turned southerly by way of Pine Bluff and Lewisville (where the Shreveport trains cut south) to Texarkana.

I came to Memphis right before the UP took over the SP, and did not carefully learn 'what was what' in the traffic; this was complicated because the Missouri Pacific was also UP after 1982 so there was plenty of UP-painted power on show.  As I recall, most of the SP-powered trains turned south on the same ex-IC line that Amtrak uses; tellingly there was no 'wye' at that time, only a turn from west to south.  Some very big trains with very big power went that way, but I have no idea where they went (probably to IC/CN) at whichever junction it was (East, I think; Amtrak turns to run along the top of the whole ex-IC yard from East to West Junction; Samfp will know better).

Keep in mind that the entire eastern border of Tennessee is the Mississippi River, and there are few bridges until you get considerably north of Memphis.  Fingers that end 'at the Tennessee line' would either be going to ferries or 'intermodal' water transportation -- likely barges.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 6:26 PM

Ah-Ha! Barges... good good, makes sense.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 8:02 PM

From Mike:

 

Chapter from book American Labor Leaders by Charles A. Madison


 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 1, 2020 10:53 PM

The control of the Cotton Belt by the SP allowed the SP to undercut their agreement to route California traffic via Ogden and the UP, made when SP got permission to get the Central Pacific.  The StLSW salesmen were active in California.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 8:18 AM

Overmod

There's a reason -- an important one -- I put 'socialism' in quotes.

As you know, I'm not a 'knee' jerk opponent of many of the proper ideas of socialism, or of the rights of labor in general (and of the proper rights of railroad labor in particular).  Nor -- significantly -- was I mocking even misplaced tyrannies of different kinds masquerading as 'socialistic' by taking a knee in recognition rather than standing ... just applying the same action often used in allegedly converse situations.

All this aside from the initial point that it was meant as a joke.  Perhaps I should have realized better than anyone how unfunny some 'jokes' can be.

While I think we need something other than labor solidarity to bring about a society that is more just and more fair, I do support the principle and the right to fair labor organizations -- and also the right of such organizations to make the rights of their members 'more important' than others (just as the formally-organized BLM does in a different context).

It has been especially hard for me to watch as the new era of robber-baron 'capitalism' has ruined so much of railroading so fast.  And to realize how long, and perhaps hard beyond expectations, recovery from that will be.

 

Perhaps making straightforward, cogent replies without your alledged "sarcasm" would help you avoid misspeaking although the statement in question was quite simple and short.

The Labor Day holiday here in September 7 this year. The reason we do not celebrate the contributions of organized labor on May 1 (as in most of the world) is because of that date's connections to socialism (of various stripes) and the Wobblies.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 9:20 AM

charlie hebdo
The reason we do not celebrate the contributions of organized labor on May 1 (as in most of the world) is because of that date's connections to socialism (of various stripes) and the Wobblies.

Now that you mention it, I think it may be time to try to get May Day recognized, if not as its own holiday, as a legitimate day to express solidarity for labor rights -- a remarkably different thing from 'socialism' in many respects -- worldwide.  (Not to get rid of our carefully managed current 'Labor Day' which is now enough of its own tradition, as well as 'officially respected' by current government, to be perpetuated.)

Perhaps space for it could be freed up by removing one of the politically-incorrect people's holidays.  Not being Italian, I'd nominate Columbus Day, as there has been so much vituperation concerning him in the past few months; there are better Italians to commemorate nationally if we still think we need one... Big Smile

And it is long past time to weed out the memory of Big Bill and the Wobblies, perhaps along with some of the Teamsters history and those unforgivable morons using dynamite on the FEC and shooting people in the '60s, just as we are doing with Confederates previously given more recognition than their contribution to history deserved.

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