N&W v C&O Photography and Filming

949 views
39 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
N&W v C&O Photography and Filming
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:45 PM

Sorry if this has been covered before but I have always wondered why there are buckets of material on the N&W hauling coal as well as the Big Boys for that matter, so why is there almost no footage of the 2-6-6-6s? Just a couple of snippets from what I have been able to gather and there were 60 of them. Not to mention the Virginan's.

That got me thinking was C&O much more anti filming maybe? I can understand the furious activity at the end on the N&W when everyone knew it was the last gasp, but still.............

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 3, 2020 7:18 PM

I'm going to hazard a very wild guess here.

Why no movies of the C&O?  Well, good quality movie cameras were expensive, and so was good quality movie film like Kodachrome.  There wasn't too much disposable income floating around in the parts of the country where those 2-6-6-6's operated.  And those same parts of the country probably weren't so easy to get to for the railfans in other parts of the country who could afford movie cameras and the film to feed them with.

C&O being anti-filming?  Maybe, but as long as one stayed off the property there wasn't much they could do about anyone filming.  At any rate I've never heard or read anything about the C&O being railfan-hostile.

And of course, maybe there is  some good-quality footage of Allegheny's in action that just hasn't floated to the surface yet.

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Monday, May 4, 2020 4:11 PM

You make a good point about the costs involved.

Would be phenomenal if some footage did emerge. In fact there probably was some now I think of it.

  • Member since
    April 2015
  • 319 posts
Posted by Enzoamps on Monday, May 4, 2020 7:03 PM

I'd leave out the anti-filming stuff, but why not just contact the C&O Historical Society and ask about such resources?

https://cohs.org/

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:22 PM

I found something on the Alleghenys, it's only 2:30 minutes, but at least it's something.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVNHywKHOOk  

DVD's available from Sunday River Productions.

http://www.sundayriverproductions.com  

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 18,525 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:33 PM

Remember - The N&W remained in steam longer than the C&O did.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 4:04 PM

BaltACD

Remember - The N&W remained in steam longer than the C&O did.

 

Certainly true, and I'm sure it inspired quite a bit of "Last chance for steam" photography in those final years.  

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana
  • 2,002 posts
Posted by rrnut282 on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:24 PM

Could O W Link have inspired more to follow in his footsteps trackside at N&W rather than C&O? 

Mike (2-8-2)
  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: Parma Heights Ohio
  • 3,390 posts
Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:21 PM

Possibly.  But Link was a one-of-a-kind railfan.  Few would or could get the kinds of permissions he got to be on and photograph N&W property and even fewer would or could go to the lengths he did to make his images.

Big Smile  I'm Cuckoo For Choo Choo Stuffs!  Big Smile

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:25 PM

Link might  have inspired others to get the C&O in addition to the C&O, however Link got into the steam photography game very late, he was one of those "Last chance at steam" photographers I mentioned earlier.  What got him interested in the N&W was the fact that, as his book title put it so well, the N&W was "The Last Steam Railroad In America."  

very slight  exaggeration as the Grand Trunk was still running steam at the same time, and so was the Rio Grande narrow-gauge in Colorado.  And there were still steam shortlines around the country.

But by the time Link was doing the N&W C&O steam was long gone.  

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Tuesday, May 26, 2020 7:51 PM

Actually a couple more youtube videos with footage I've never seen of Alleghenys have surfaced because I was searching around for other things. Very nice to see and new nonetheless. 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 5,868 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:12 PM

Where's the beef? Links?? 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:03 PM

Miningman

Where's the beef? Links?? 

 

Try the one I linked on May 5th, the YouTube algorithm may pull up others for you.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 5,868 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 1:28 AM

Took your advice Wayne and got two. Neither are very good but what the heck eh?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz14zIBWspA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zz5ET6D3pQs

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 9:36 AM

Yeah, I played around on the YouTube last night and found them myself.  I chuckled a bit at the first one, looks like it was a cell-phone "target of opportunity" by a Henry Ford Museum visitor!

The B&O museum's vid is a bit better, but in true show-business fashion it leaves you wanting more!

I've been to the B&O Museum twice and seen the Allegheny.  I've mentioned it before, but photographs and films really don't do it justice, you've got to see it yourself, the sheer size of the thing is staggering!  Same with a Big Boy.

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 7:10 PM

Here's one. Looks very imposing exiting Big Bend Tunnel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH6ulKZZeEk&list=RDCMUCxVUCKepalbWLBvqJDOp6vQ&start_radio=1&t=112

There's a few scenes on the VGN on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ix6fUNaL4

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 5,868 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 8:29 PM

Thank you FlyingScotaman.  I've seen the second video before, it's quite good. The Virginian was a railroad to be admired. 

The first video I've never seen before. Good stuff.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 18,525 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 9:05 PM

FlyingScotaman
There's a few scenes on the VGN on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ix6fUNaL4

Curious that the VGN used flags on the caboose (at least in daylight prior to 1951) instead of markers, like most other railroads.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 4,060 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 28, 2020 5:56 AM

If VGN had stuck with steam the 8 AG class "Blue Ridge" 2-6-6-6 type engines would have been the favorites on the West End, that is, west of Roanoke.  The 5 BA class Berkshires ("Little AGs") were postwar favorites of the East End crews.

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:33 AM

Miningman

Thank you FlyingScotaman.  I've seen the second video before, it's quite good. The Virginian was a railroad to be admired. 

The first video I've never seen before. Good stuff.

 

The exasperating thing about the first video is that I'd say that footage has been chopped from maybe some newsreel or short and that in dome dank vault there's perhaps a presentation about those locomotives.

Maybe.

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 34 posts
Posted by FlyingScotaman on Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:35 AM

BaltACD

 

 
FlyingScotaman
There's a few scenes on the VGN on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ix6fUNaL4

 

Curious that the VGN used flags on the caboose (at least in daylight prior to 1951) instead of markers, like most other railroads.

 

I did notice that and was wondeing if they would be of more use in daylight than the weedy glow from the marker lights in those days?

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 28, 2020 9:33 AM

FlyingScotaman

 

 
BaltACD

 

 
FlyingScotaman
There's a few scenes on the VGN on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ix6fUNaL4

 

Curious that the VGN used flags on the caboose (at least in daylight prior to 1951) instead of markers, like most other railroads.

 

 

 

I did notice that and was wondeing if they would be of more use in daylight than the weedy glow from the marker lights in those days?

 

 

I was checking a Jersey Central rulebook from 1974 last night to see what they had to say on the subject.  According to the book rear markers had to be either marker lamps OR red flags, flags being used when marker lamps weren't available or non-functioning.

That's only one 'road of course, certainly others had their own rules. 

The thing to remember is the rear markers, either lamps or flags, are really the designator that what you're looking at is a complete train, unless they're lamps at night they aren't really much of a safety feature.  Hard to miss a big red caboose in daylight!    

That CNJ rulebook I mentioned said that in daylight those rear marker lamps don't even have to be lit!  

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 4,060 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:13 AM

B&M's rule book only required lit lamps under low light conditions. Flags were OK for daytime operations.  Central Vermont used reflectorized metal flags as long as they used cabooses.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 11,183 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:24 AM

Flintlock76
That CNJ rulebook I mentioned said that in daylight those rear marker lamps don't even have to be lit!


Note that many markers have a roughly comical 'bell' or 'bezel' around the actual lens.  This has similar visibility to a flag in daylight, and I think I always assumed that was its purpose (it certainly is a poor reflector!)

Wayne's comment about lighting markers in the daytime reminds me about the old crossing watchman who found himself under oath in court for negligence.  He impassionedly testified how he had raised his red lantern, moved it in circles, finally thrown it at the person approaching the crossing, but they just would not stop, and so were hit.  The judge found him innocent, but asked him afterwards why he was so vehement in testimony.  He said it was just that he was nervous, hoping that opponent's attorney was not going to ask 'was that red lantern lit?'

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 10,903 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:49 AM

I don't think I will ever forget seeing a brown paper towel stuck in the knuckle on the coupler of the rear car of a passenger train; I did not see any other evidence of a marker.

I also remember watching the flagman take the markers down just before we entered the tunnel after crossing the Eads Bridge.

And, I once saw the red classification lights on the rear of a two-unit (back to back) light passenger engine moving through the Terminal Station in Atlanta.

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 18,525 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, May 28, 2020 11:27 AM

Even today, where grades don't require the use of a 2-way EOT, a red flag in the knuckle can be used to designate the end of a train during daylight hours.  The use of a flashing EOT is required after dark.

In my personal experience, I have never seen a caboose that was equipped with brackets that were designed to display anything but marker lamps.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 28, 2020 11:51 AM

Reminds me of an antiques mall I was in about 20 years ago.  There was a booth where railroadiana was being sold, and there was what I'm going to call a "brakeman's kit" for sale.  It held fusees of different colors, a red flag, and even track torpedoes!  The price was more than right but I asked myself "Just WHAT am I going to do with it?"  so I passed on it.  I did buy a D&H lantern they were selling though.  Still have it.

I'm not kicking myself for not buying it, but I DO think about it from time to time!

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 10,903 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:53 PM

Wayne, as to what to do with that kit, you could take a torpedo or two out to a railroad and strap them to a rail--I wonder what the next engineer coming along would think of it, especially if he is a fairly new hire. I do not really advise doing so.

Johnny

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 10,903 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:57 PM

BaltACD

Even today, where grades don't require the use of a 2-way EOT, a red flag in the knuckle can be used to designate the end of a train during daylight hours.  The use of a flashing EOT is required after dark.

In my personal experience, I have never seen a caboose that was equipped with brackets that were designed to display anything but marker lamps.

 

And, in the old days, marker lamps had lenses of at least two colors, yellow and red. When stopped on a siding, at least one of the markers was to be turned to show, as I recall, yellow to the rear.

Johnny

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 4,181 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 28, 2020 4:31 PM

Deggesty

Wayne, as to what to do with that kit, you could take a torpedo or two out to a railroad and strap them to a rail--I wonder what the next engineer coming along would think of it, especially if he is a fairly new hire. I do not really advise doing so.

 

I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it Johnny!  The most  I might have done is taken one of the torpedoes to a shooting range and shot it with a .22, just to see what would happen.

I knew a gent in New Jersey years ago who grew up along the Jersey Central in the 30's and got friendly with the train crews.  They used to give him track torpedoes to use for target practice!  He said there was no doubt when he scored a bulls-eye!

Wayne

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter